It could be you up there...

a reply to: jmdewey60

Ok, so if I understand thee correctly, the Suffering Servant isn't Jesus, but it's a poof Jesus had to die? OK. Now we have two sufferers in a horribly terrorloop several centuries apart, can you please tell me the name of this servant of Isaiah? Was he crucified too?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Ok, so if I understand thee correctly, the Suffering Servant isn't Jesus, but it's a poof Jesus had to die?

In hindsight, it appears that way.
People up to before the crucifixion would not have seen it, other than Jesus himself.
It isn't "proof" (in the sense that there is a single point that demands it) so much as a preponderance of evidence.
For example, the preamble to the Gospel of Mark, it says that John the Baptist began preaching so that Isaiah would be fulfilled, while quoting Malachi in regards to what John was doing as his own personal activity.
That leaves me to regard the Isaiah prophecy to be about what Jesus was doing as his personal activity.
Which would have been to be someone after the type in the Suffering Servant story in Isaiah 53.

OK. Now we have two sufferers in a horribly terrorloop several centuries apart, can you please tell me the name of this servant of Isaiah? Was he crucified too?

"Israel".
It was a parable type oracle about how the kingdoms were the victim of foreign aggression but by being patient and not forsaking their promises, they were able to have a sort of vindication in that they reoccupied Jerusalem and rebuilt the Temple under the Persians.

originally posted by: jmdewey60

"Israel".
It was a parable type oracle about how the kingdoms were the victim of foreign aggression but by being patient and not forsaking their promises, they were able to have a sort of vindication in that they reoccupied Jerusalem and rebuilt the Temple under the Persians.

Well according to OT the Land was hardly repopulated by Israel, but rather a very much Judean group of patriots who rebuilt the temple and wrote the Torah, and held Cyrus the Great for Messiah and perhaps Hillel as the devil himself. Written into the Prophets at a much later stage. Hillel (translated Lat. Lucifer or Gr. Phosphorous in a few bibles) is the patron of the Babylonian Talmud and lived about a generation before Jesus. Not many copies of OT mss from before that era have survived. Hillel's name could easily have been written into Isaiah's prophecy about the fall of Babylon. Isaiah 14:12-17. Then again, it's a common name I suppose, so most likely it's arbitrary, but it is indeed puzzling.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

. . . Judean group of patriots who rebuilt the temple and wrote the Torah . . .

Be that as it may, by the time that the gospels were written, it would have been considered old, if not ancient, and was presented by the authorities as authentic prophecy.
The point being, I think a lot of people at the time would have seen themselves in some manner as represented by that parable (for lack of a better term).

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

. . . Judean group of patriots who rebuilt the temple and wrote the Torah . . .

Be that as it may, by the time that the gospels were written, it would have been considered old, if not ancient, and was presented by the authorities as authentic prophecy.
The point being, I think a lot of people at the time would have seen themselves in some manner as represented by that parable (for lack of a better term).

True, I suppose. Btw. Which parable?

ETA: Isaiah at the time of Jesus would be like 15th century for us. Not very ancient. Suddenly old prophetic texts becomes popular with the messianic wind of the messianic Enochian tradition that swept over the Land at the time.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

True, I suppose. Btw. Which parable?

The Suffering Servant story in Isaiah 53.
This is the go-to "prophecy" for the New Testament writers to explain what happened to Jesus.

a reply to: jmdewey60

I disagree. Jesus had no diseases and he suffered one day of his life. Rest of it was rock'n'roll.

ETA: I have to drop the gloves here, I need some sleep Looks like the storm calmed?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Jesus had no diseases and he suffered one day of his life.

Just the general concept of it, as I mentioned earlier.
They could cherry pick it and ignore the parts that didn't fit.
That's just the way it was done.
You couldn't use like a whole chapter in anything supposedly prophetic because they tend to go all over the place.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Please forgive me my last few hatter's comments in this and a certain other thread here. It's the berserk in me, I suppose. Sort of hard to remain sane sometimes. I eat my pill, no harm done I hope. Guess it was the change in environment. Happens sometimes.

Breaking NEWS, Gospel:

"Things are going crazy at the graveyard, resurrections!"

Matthew 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. (ESV)

If we are to believe Matthew here, there were an awful lot of resurrections going on that Passover when the Lord was cucified. Not strange extra guards were called in and how Nicodemus and his Essene collegues could work on Jesus in peace and leave unnoticed when the job was done.

I cannot see how this scenario is a threat to Christendom. The way from Calvary to the grave. The light of truth inside the tomb. And the resurrection of Life that continues because of the love and mindset of the Lord.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart

Psalms 51:17 ESV

Now, why are you all so happy that Jesus died? Concrete cookies anyone?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Because the law of sin and death is covering over us all. We just 'know' that god requires blood to make us pure, and what better than the blood of God. We 'know' that we are too vile to come into the presence of god, and that he wants to destroy us.

Thankfully that is not what God, the Abba of Jesus, the Most High wants, or thinks about us. God does not require blood sacrifice to bring you back into communion with Him. He does not destroy us, He does not kill. You see he sat down from his works and said "it is very good".

The problem is our own perception.

"And you who were formerly enemies IN MIND (your mind), doing evil deeds, be reconciled to God."
"God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, NOT COUNTING THEIR TRESSPASSES AGAINST THEM"

Our mind is the only enemy of God, and that is like the veil that must be torn, like the hymen of the virgin bride birthing the Son of Man.

a reply to: zardust

Had every believer believed like you, this world might actually have been a nice place. But thanks to most Christians Jesus had to leave the world of sense and enter some kind of quantum state in our minds, like some cursed Schrödinger's cat, with one camp extrapolating in how incredibly dead he was and how refined and and utterly destructive his suffering and passion was, to the extent that there is no kind of magic in the universe strong enough to scrape even a single live cell off of his carcass. Preaching how he was the perfect, cleanest sacrifice with a scent of God's liking and God's approval. Until their sidekick comes in: Magic, and the LORD's alive because God changed his mind and brought him back to life after having been dead for three days. That's not the way things work.

No mentioning the people who actually acted out the Word of God and saved his sorry arse. Saved him from that kind of people that has evolved into Christians these days, still screaming "crucify" "crucify" and waiting around just to see if Elijah shows up: "for they have shed the blood of saints and prophets and Jesus has given them blood to drink. It is what they deserve!" Sometimes I wonder what those empty holes in their foreheads are, and what use they have from those things on the side of the head. Sure aren't for reading and listening.

Yes the religious extrapolation that Yahoshuas blood was magical and shedding it in crucifixion somehow appeased the vengeful angry creator God is a great perversion of religion in the minds of many men.It is taking what was written and turning it into a passion play.

The fact is the purpose of the old and new testimony scriptures is about one thing only.The testimony that testifies of the true fact of Yahoshua….which means Yahweh(the creator God) is salvation…which means deliverance. That deliverance is from hades which is very poorly translated as the word hell.Hades means the realm of death and imperception.Those are what Yahoshua is/will deliver ALL of mankind from.

The general consensus of Christian believers is …"Jesus saves from the eternal punishment of hell".That is patently false.It is a doctrine of men concocted in the religious carnal mind(the adversary…i.e satan)There is no war going on between the creator God and a being /spirit entity Satan.The only war is between the ears of man in their carnal mind that is at enmity with the creator God.

ALL the theories of how or what Yahoshua died for are false.He positively was not a "hierarchical" animal sacrifice. Or he didn't descend into "hell" and set free the old testament believers and take them to a place called heaven or he was NOT revived back to health. The religious of his time plotted his murder and it was carried out in the crucifixion. First he was scourged an inch from his life then crucified.He was dead as dead can be and was in the realm of death.

What happened cannot be known.It was beyond this realm.If he was who he acted and claimed to be it was completely unique.He made no secret of the fact to his disciples(and in alluding it to others) that he would be murdered and he would NOT survive his death however he would transcend it with another "type" of life.He clearly stated"unless a seed dies it can bear no fruit."This process happens trillions of times daily yet we don't perceive it as a miracle but how things grow.

The old testimony testified that there was seed that ALL of the nations would grow from through the man Abraham(the father of many nations)and his wife Sara.Abraham fathered Isaac who fathered Jacob who became Israel which means "struggles with God"The nation of Israel is the archetype of ALL of mankind.The chosen of the creator God.Their purpose was to testify of Yahoshua.They were NOT and examples of how to be but of what all of mankind were…in conflict with the creator God because the physical nature ALL of mankind was born with is religious(sin..meaning falling short and missing the mark of maturity).

The creator God is not condemning anyone for being religious…because they created everyone that way.It is the "nature" of living in the physical realm and is unavoidable.The creator God has taken 100% "responsibility" for that however mankind is individually "accountable" for all they do.The religious nature is the amalgamation of your experiences believed in faith of your personal Belief System(B.S) religion.NONE are immune from it.It is human nature.

The nature of the physical realm is everything will die that lives in it.(the reason Yahoshua did die). When it dies it is in the realm of death.It cannot "deliver" itself from it's condition however part of the nature of physically(matter) living things is they do change form.Depending on the "type" of life they lived they can be "resurrected" into another form of life.Plant life that dies can resurrect to help form more plant life.

The seed of a fruit(which is what fruit is) can resurrect into more fruit through a process and continue the process of life however the fact is eventually all living matter in the physical realm will be in the realm of death and will not resurrect.It is the nature of matter.

This process of life to death to life is a shadow of the realm of the Kingdom of the creator God.The physical realm is the "valley" of the shadow of death….and life!In the Kingdom of God realm nothing dies that is resurrected into it because It is the source of ALL LIFE.The creator God …in their wisdom…created this process.In the scriptures it is called "salvation.The physical realm is in effect a womb/matrix where "life" is being grown.It is not unlike the human conception in the womb.

It all starts from seed….. one seed(spermatozoon cell) penetrates an egg and becomes a zygote(which the root meaning is marriage).The seeds that don't ..die.After the "marriage" the zygote begins to split cells and form an embryo. When it begins to form human characteristics it is a fetus.When the fetus is fully formed it is "delivered" and born from the "womb" realm into the physical realm.

That is in essence what is happening to ALL of mankind (and creation)....and just as we had NOTHING to do with our conception/salvation into the physical realm as a human we have nothing to do with this conception either.Our sole responsibility is to "live" the life of man(i.e spirit of man) because ..that is ALL you can do.Nothing can be done to cause,alter or hinder the process of salvation.That should be very obvious however many don't believe that at all.They believe(through their Belief System religion) that they have "control" over their own destiny(a will free of cause) even though experience proves otherwise.Many believers delude themselves that the "God" they believe in is THE God…however it is nothing more than the "MY God" of their religion.

This is all part of the process of salvation "in" the physical realm.This "B.S religion is what ALL of mankind will be delivered from.That is what is meant by "forgiveness'' which means "freed from bondage"(of your religion) NOT pardoned of guilt.EVERYONE is 100% accountable for ALL they do including their guilt.

Is the process of the creator God's salvation incomprehensible..yes…implausible…no.It is being enacted all the time because the mechanics are a natural process designed by the creator God.It doesn't matter one bit if none believe it because the process will be done regardless.Their Belief System is the filter mankind perceives this physical realm through. Fortunately the filter will be eradicated and all of mankind will perceive reality for what it is IN the Kingdom of the creator God… ..LIFE...not a crucifixion..That's the Good News.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: Ophiuchus 13

Yes, people should focus on the LIVING Jesus and not extrapolate in how incredibly dead they claim he is. I say 'is' here since he could never have been resurrected had he been killed by a spear to his heart, being brain dead for days with resulting severe brain damage in just a few hours from cardiac arrest.

What is it that you disbelieve Utnap? That Our Lord is God? The Resurrection proves it. A scientific study done
in 2011 on the markings of the Shroud confirms. Man CANNOT yet produce the UV rays that made those marks.

The moment of "light", Our Lord rose from the dead. And all the mystical through the centuries point to Christ.

He wants you to believe, ask Him in prayer to help you believe.


love,

colbe

originally posted by: Rex282
Yes the religious extrapolation that Yahoshuas blood was magical and shedding it in crucifixion somehow appeased the vengeful angry creator God is a great perversion of religion in the minds of many men.It is taking what was written and turning it into a passion play.

And that is my point exactly. Religion is an added boulder of the burden of life. Truth will set us free from religion, for religion is anything but Truth. Religion is or was a primitive concept of science when it arrived, and for quite some time there was no fence between science and religion, they were two sides of the same coin. However, at some point this coin suddenly became a place where they could imprint a picture of the high priest and the king, and it all turned into a soap opera, and the lust for blood and sacrifice, morale, slavery.... Religion is a pyramid scam and it's been going on for millennia, and still it has it's claws around man's hearts and minds. Keep a slave long enough and he will start to identify with you and love you, "Are WE sick today, master?" Religion is a machine that produce children with Stockholm Syndrome and fills the little ones with fear and shame so they will never dare sticking their heads out. For if they do, God will condemn them to eternal damnation.