Dreams & Science

Dreams have been a hot topic of discussion over mankind's recorded history. Philosophers, scientists, physicians and ordinary citizens have for thousands of years discussed and debated the nature and possible meaning behind dreams. While there are hundreds of theories about the possible purpose/function of dreaming, often overlooked is the fact that nobody denies that dreams do indeed occur. It is globally accepted that dreams occur, even if one ignores the why and how of the process.

Despite the fact that dreams cannot be observed or measured directly (yet), it is a universal truth that they occur. Any person you ask will confirm that they have experienced dreams in their lives. Even the most hard-line rational scientist cannot deny that dreams occur, because every individual that can self-idenify and communicate with others has experienced dreams at one point or more in their lives.

Which leads me on to a more controversial area of discussion: spirituality. You will often find people say they don't believe in spirituality because there is no empirical evidence to support it exists. There is no way to directly observe or measure the concepts behind its existence, therefore, according to the scientific method at least, spirituality does not occur.

Why are dreams accepted as a universal truth when spirituality is not? The simple explanation is that not everybody experiences spirituality but everyone experiences dreams. That does not, however, prove that spirituality does not exist - it merely suggests that fewer people have experienced it.

Some pertinent questions to consider:
* Is experience confined to reality?
* Is there a relationship between reality and dreams?
* Can the same logic that proves the existence of dreams be applied to spirituality?

a reply to: Dark Ghost

My opinion.

why are dreams accepted as a universal truth when spirituality is not? - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Because we are honest about dreams. We are not forthcoming about spirituality and what it is.

Is experience confined to reality? And can you prove that it is or is not?

Yes, experience is confined to reality. If there was a place of non-reality, no reality would exist there. What would be in that place to experience?

We do have some sort of sensual experience while in a state of hibernation. If we realize that we are experiencing the entire process of sleep, and not just the dream that occurs in our mind (merely a part of the entire process of sleep), dreams do not remain so mystical.

originally posted by: Aphorism
Because we are honest about dreams. We are not forthcoming about spirituality and what it is.

Never thought of it like that. I think you may be correct, though.

Yes, experience is confined to reality. If there was a place of non-reality, no reality would exist there. What would be in that place to experience?

What about illusions and hallucinations? Are they part of reality as well?

And other way around. How do you know that all this reality is not part of dream - Or what makes you think that all this is real real.

* Is experience confined to reality?-- First of all by reality I'm assuming your talking about the physical world. To me experience is just that, what it is you experience. Whether you are on hallucinogens, or dreaming, meditating, etc., whatever it is that you are personally experiencing is still considered an experience. The experience may have only happened to you, however you still experience it. That alone makes it a "real" experience, whether it happened in the physical world or your mind. So i would say absolutely not, experience is never confined by what others can observe. An individual experience can only be experienced by that one consciousness.

* Is there a relationship between reality and dreams? *
This is an amazing question as well. I believe there are multiple levels of dream being connected to reality. For one each individuals dreams pertain to each individuals reality. For instance, dream interpreters who connect symbols in peoples dreams to what is happening in their real life.

Another relationship between dreams and physical reality would be lucid dreaming. I know people don't realize this yet and think other people are crazy for even mentioning it, but what you can do in your dreams, we will eventually be able to do in physical reality once we master or physical bodies. I am currently learning telekinesis in physical reality, which is something that comes very easy to me in dreams.

I know these videos are in no way proof of something spiritual happening, but I think these guys are genuine spiritual teachers. i know these videos can be faked, but my own experiences lead me to believe they are real.

Take Michael Grubb, he claims to have learned how to connect spiritually to the physical world by expanding his consciousness. He now can influence the physical environment through his mind. He claims he learned everything through dreams. Here is a video of him moving water and air with his mind.



Another guy Named Michael Monk does the same thing. He also says that dreams are basically the spiritual realm. It is reality on a much light density. Being composed of a much lighter density, it is very easy to influence the dream reality with your mind. Influencing our physical world with your mind takes much practice and meditation. Here is Michael Monk performing a healing. again i know this is very easy to hoax, i just don't think it is.




Can the same logic that proves the existence of dreams be applied to spirituality?
If you can gather from my previous answers, i think they are one in the same. I think it will take mass public demonstrations of energy masters to to actually prove to people that spirituality is real. Otherwise it is impossible to prove to someone who doesn't want to search for answers themselves. We don't have the technology yet.

Personally I am almost to the point where I can induce an Out of Body Experience at will. I have proven it to myself.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

* Can the same logic that proves the existence of dreams be applied to spirituality?

The fundamental difference between dreams and spirituality is not necessarily that all people experience one and not the other... it is that people know when they experience a dream but may not be so sure when they experience spirituality. The difficulty lies in defining exactly what spirituality is. Everyone has a different idea of what spirituality means to them, while everyone's conception of a dream is the same.

Can the same logic be applied to spirituality? Well, whatever logic you are using to prove the existence of dreams is not any sort of scientific method. There is no objective, scientific way to prove dreams. It seems pretty clear that there will be no objective proof for the existence of spirituality.

This leaves subjective interpretations of spirituality as our only way to prove its existence. With this method, the only way we can develop a universal concept for spirituality is if everyone's conception of spirituality is the same. With many different religions advocating different ideas of what spirituality is, it's not feasible that we will develop a universal concept for spirituality.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

What about illusions and hallucinations? Are they part of reality as well? - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

"Real" or "reality" is an honorific term. If I say something is "real" or not, someone experiencing the exact same thing and exact same phenomena will say the exact opposite. That's my take on reality. It may be a deflationary look, but it works.

In my opinion, what one perceives is what one perceives, and human perception is not all that powerful, and can be influenced by countless things. If perception can be influenced so easily, then it does not constitute reality. Sleeping for instance—one is asleep, yet one can dream anything. This "perception" isn't reality, meaning one isn't actually performing the acts he dreams he is performing in his perception, but that is how we experience sleep. We can hear reality, ie. sounds outside the window, in our dreams becoming a part of it, reminding us that reality continues no matter how we are experiencing it. Maybe in a way it is the opposite for spirituality, we hear our dreams in reality and they somehow become a part of it.

What are your views? Can spirituality reconcile itself with reality?

a reply to: Aphorism

Yes, I believe spirituality can reconcile itself with reality.

I'm not quite sure how to explain my beliefs, but I feel we can experience the spiritual within reality.