Spiritual Reorientation 5: The Return of Power

a reply to: Aphorism

Shortly after admitting that you know the tao cannot be known, which is a glaring contradiction, you say: .... So how do you know it is an illusory goal? If it isn't to be known, then for all you know it isn't an illusory goal. For someone claiming the tao cannot be known, you seem to know a lot about it.

I'm saying this Tao that you keep substituting for the real one, doesn't exist. It would be like trying to find a water molecule, floating in water. What would you say to a person who's trying to find such a thing? And, mind you, these are examples containing tangible forms. But words can't go beyond that, so it'll have to do.

It's not to say that the water molecule is nonexistent, so to speak. But if you're trying to find one floating in water, it's a sign of great misunderstanding as to what a molecule is. So it doesn't imply that water molecules don't exist.

Likewise, I'm not saying Tao is a falsehood.

a reply to: Aphorism

No one is saying knowledge about strawberries is the same as strawberries. That is a ridiculous analogy. But we can nonetheless talk about strawberries.

And only because we've both eaten one.

a reply to: Aphorism

I replied to your post, but didn't address a point you made.

I incorrectly said:

"saying you can achieve it, is the same thing as saying you don't know what it is"

I should have said:
'saying you can achieve it, is the same as saying you don't know what it isn't'

Ran out of time to correct the original post...

originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: Aphorism

I am confused, who has the power to spiritually reorient?

So, according to Plato, the "cave dwellers" are those who look at the ordinary material world and think that this (material world) is all that there is to "reality". They (irreligious materialists) are only looking at "appearances/shadows" and not the true reality of the "spiritual realm".

That "divine realm" is what Socrates and Adeimantus were discussing when Socrates was arguing (to Adeimantus's head-nodding agreements) that Homer would be strictly CENSORED in a perfect/ideal Greek city state for anything "derogatory" he had written about either Zeus or the rest of the Greek pantheon of gods.

In short and in sum, according to Plato/Socrates it is those who do not believe in God/gods who are looking at a "material realm of shadows" as distinct from the world of pure eternal ideas.

Without getting into religion at all, you hear the same sort of "stuff" from modern physicists. The real world is the world of quarks, photons and/or tachyons which are just as mysterious to most people as is Zeus, Apollo or the Holy Spirit to them.

ca.answers.yahoo.com...

Upon further reflection, the power is never lost, just redirected temporarily or permanently on a new or existing spiritual path. Who is to say that taking a religious path does not reorient some people spiritually?

a reply to: InTheLight

Upon further reflection, the power is never lost, just redirected temporarily or permanently on a new or existing spiritual path. Who is to say that taking a religious path does not reorient some people spiritually?

I have to agree. The religious path is a spiritual reorientation from the direction one was heading previously. Thousands of years of this reorientation has occurred already, and most of the world's population is religious. How has the world faired because of it? In my opinion, religion has failed, and yet another spiritual reorientation is necessary, one that isn't built on fear and myth.

originally posted by: Aphorism
How has the world faired because of it? In my opinion, religion has failed, and yet another spiritual reorientation is necessary, one that isn't built on fear and myth.

How would it have faired otherwise? It what sense has religion failed society [you]? What would be the metric by which we measure this failure [or success]? Is it based on morals/values? Or how we explain our origins, our existence, our relationship with nature? What is it that leads someone to say that religion has failed? And I wonder if it's any different than, say, how our governments have failed us...?

Power over society is built on fear and myth, isn't it? It keeps the population under control, in a sense. Just put on the nightly news or pick up a newspaper for your daily dose... Religion isn't the only form of propaganda I'm afraid.

For some reason evolution gave us a natural ability (oriented us?) to be aware of our inner self and to reflect deeply about our connection with the outside world. It's an intimate awareness of the experience of life. To be able to retreat to the inner caverns of yourself where no one else can find you unless you let them... this to me is what being spiritual is about.

At some point there was a desire to share this with others and it branched off into different belief systems, or explanations as to what this inner awareness of life is (soul) and its relationship with the outside world (God). I think the initial intent was good but clearly there was a disorientation that occurred... not just religiously either...

Perhaps part of the reorientation process is finding inner peace... to let go of what you can't control and focus on what you can...

the start of what you said sounds like Buddhism to me!

Man fail'd religion.
it is now just a tool of control.
some people still use it how it should be use'd.
I like the post, please keep it going.

It is words (naming/labelling) which is the origin of all particular things.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Man gave names to all the animals by Bob Dylan
"Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, in the beginning
Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, long time ago"

From kaballah
Ayin (Nothing; אין)
Ein Sof (Limitlessness; אין סוף)
Ohr Ein Sof (Endless Light; אור אין סוף)

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Space is not the consequence of anything. Space was prior to anything and will be there after any thing.

Space and time do not exist. They only exist by being observed.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: Itisnowagain

Space is not the consequence of anything. Space was prior to anything and will be there after any thing.

Space and time do not exist. They only exist by being observed.

If you really believe that, then close your eyes and jump off a building. Surely gravity will no longer affect you if you don't see it happening?

This is when spirituality becomes glorified idiocy. *facepalm*