John Kerry on religion: "Not the Way I Think Most People Want to Live"

a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

I suppose I don't trust Wiki and certainly not Spangler as much as you seem to.

However, I'll try and get around to checking the quote out more thoroughly.

a reply to: BO XIAN

For now . . . here's what I've come up with. It appears that the quote does have a reasonably solid foundation . . . LOL . . . as "solid" as the personality and mentality concerned.

= = =


forum.prisonplanet.com...

Dok
Member
*****
Re: Is there a source / reference for this quote?
« Reply #1 by “Dok” Member on: February 04, 2010, 05:28:39 AM »

Secret initiations have always been part of the occult but what was once hidden is now open. New Age leaders have gone public since 1975 have for over 20 years admitted that it is Lucifer, called both the Solar God and Solar Logos, is whom the New Age actually serves. David Spangler, for instance, has stated: Christ is the same force as Lucifer... Lucifer prepares man for the experience of Christhood. (He is) the great initiator.... Lucifer works within each of us to bring us to wholeness, and as we move into a New Age ... each of us in some way is brought to that point which I term the Luciferic Initiation ... for it is an invitation into the New Age. (David Spangler reflections on the Christ p.44-45) Clearly the Lucifer of this movement that wants to unite all religions is the basis of operation for theosophy, Masonry, Rosicrucianism, Bahai and numerous other false philosophies. It is a fact if one goes through Lucifer to experience the Christhood he is offering if they come out they are scarred. Lucifer does not give man freedom but slavery by blinding them with the light of initiation into darkness.
[By “Dok” Reply #10 on Feb 04, 2010 6:521:12 AM]
There is the source of the original quote. Grin

the original quote has been modified it should look like this,

Quote
"Lucifer comes to give us the final … Luciferic initiation … that many people now and in the days ahead, will be facing—for it is an initiation into the New Age. … No one will enter the New World Order unless he or she will make a pledge to worship Lucifer. No one will enter the New Age unless he will take a Luciferian initiation."

which is a mix up of what he said in "Reflections on the Christ". So over time the "..." were taken out.

By “lioner2”

Re: David Spangler (UN Director) Quote on Mandatory Luciferian Initiations for NWO
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2011, 06:09:13 PM »

Reimagination of the World, David Spangler/William Thompson, p. 133.

Spangler says that 'Lucifer comes to give us the final .. Luciferic initiation .. it is the initiation into the New Age'. He also says that 'Christ is the same force as Lucifer ... Lucifer prepares man for the experience of christhood .... Lucifer works within each one of us to bring us to wholeness as we move into the New Age'. 66 Spangler teaches that Lucifer is 'an agent of God's love'. 67 He believes that Lucifer is the angel of man's inner evolution, that 'the light that reveals to us the path to Christ comes from Lucifer...the great initiator . Lucifer comes to give us the final initiation that many people in the days ahead will be facing, for it is an initiation into the New Age' (ibid.). Cheesy

www.spiritual-wholeness.org...

And from:

www.inplainsite.org...

he Findhorn Foundation
is an non-governmental organisation associated with the United Nations Department of Public Information and takes an active role at UN headquarters in New York [7]

There is an interesting story told of Findhorn and David Spangler

“In 1970, Spangler journeyed to Britain where he visited the spiritual community of Findhorn in northern Scotland. Before leaving the United States he had been told by his own non-physical, spiritual contacts that he would find his "next cycle of work" in Europe; nevertheless, he was surprised when he arrived at Findhorn and was told that one of the founders, Eileen Caddy, had had a vision three years earlier that he would be coming there and would live there to work in the community. Not knowing who David Spangler was, Eileen and her husband Peter Caddy and their colleague, Dorothy Maclean, the three founders of the Findhorn Community, had been waiting for someone with that name to show up. Upon Spangler's arrival, he was offered--and, following his own inner direction, accepted--joint directorship of the community along with Peter”. [Wikipedia].

While much of what Findhorn does is certainly to be admired, ie.

“Concepts, tools and techniques for creating sustainable human settlements… ecovillage-based education, ecological building, renewable energy systems, waste water treatment, local organic food production” etc. [8]

- See more at: www.inplainsite.org...

A list of quotes attributed to him here:

quotes.liberty-tree.ca...

a reply to: adjensen

Well, it's nice to see our Secretary of State throw religion under the bus in favour of modernity. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Yes it is.

Religion is made up, it shouldn't have any part in modern politics.

a reply to: Nyiah

My friend, I'm talking about what religion was intended to be... not what man made of it. Just because mankind twisted and perverted the idea, that doesn't make the idea of it wrong--only the interpretation.

Yes, bible-thumpers and holier-than-thou types are dbaggy. Yes they should stop it.

Is that the fault of the religion, or the fault of the people preaching/following it?

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: buster2010 I have heard that as well but ,who and how the pyramids were built prior to this dark age some how doesn't fit .What you refer to is a later addition to the narrative but the base of it is in the climate :>)

We still don't know how the pyramids were built. Even the Egyptians who claim have built the pyramids don't know how they were built. Also they were built thousands of years before any of the current religions Judaism, Christianity and Islam were even founded.

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: buster2010
Religion is just another tool to be used to control the masses. It is used to get the people to act in a way a small minority wants them to act while retaining power over them. Religion has been used to hold humanity back long enough and it is time we move beyond it. Just look back in history and you can easily find where religion has held back mankind's progress the dark ages being just one of many examples.

Am I correct to assume that you're talking about Religion as led by man not led by the Lord Jesus?

If so then you're post is about man-made religion not the one that Jesus started - the True Christianity, which will endure forever as it's approved by his God and Father.

I am talking about all religion including the one the mythical Jesus started. Christianity has held mankind back more than any other religion.

originally posted by: adjensen
You asked how Christianity has been undercut by Western culture, because you said you didn't believe it.

I didn't say I didn't believe it. I asked what you meant by "undercutting", so I could respond to you.

I can pretty well guarantee that if you substituted "blacks" for "Christians" in how the media portrays a group, every liberal in the country would be out on Hollywood Boulevard protesting.

The difference is that racism DOES exist. Religion tries to run everyone over with their beliefs and when the people say "STOP!" you take it as some sort of affront. You cannot make other people respect your religion. The best thing to do is live by example. I know I respect religious people, as long as they don't try to run me over with their beliefs.

Again, I don't want Kerry promoting religion.

You don't get to dictate his behavior.

originally posted by: buster2010
Christianity has held mankind back more than any other religion.

Abrahamic religions in general ... IMHO.

originally posted by: JonButtonIII
My friend, I'm talking about what religion was intended to be... not what man made of it. Just because mankind twisted and perverted the idea, that doesn't make the idea of it wrong--only the interpretation.

Yes, bible-thumpers and holier-than-thou types are dbaggy. Yes they should stop it.

Is that the fault of the religion, or the fault of the people preaching/following it?

This is 100% true! That's why I support religious freedom. It's not religion itself, but the people who do things in the name of religion that are the problem. Just as guns don't kill people, people do... Religions aren't pushy and forceful, the people who represent them are....

I can absolutely support freedom of religion. The freedom to practice it, go to church, pray, raise one's family with religion as the main focus of their lives, but when religion becomes a political tool (as it is now), and religious lobbies start pushing for laws to control the people's behavior, based on their religious beliefs, that's when I have an issue with it.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

The difference is that racism DOES exist.

And so does religious discrimination and anti-theism. You pooh-pooh the media "making fun of Christians, lighten up", and yet I bet you'd complain if the media consistently portrayed atheists as being immoral hedonists, just because a handful of them are.

You don't get to dictate his behavior.

So you have no issue with the United States Secretary of State promoting religion, or promoting anti-religion, in his official capacity as this country's leading diplomat? I'm pretty sure that you've heard of the Establishment Clause, how does that fit into your perspective?

No, I can't dictate anyone's behaviour, but I can certainly point out the error of it.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Abrahamic religions in general ... IMHO.

The Catholic Church has been one of the strongest supporters of scientific research for the past thousand years. We have them to thank for the modern system of higher education, hospitals and important scientific breakthroughs like the Big Bang Theory.

(Cue someone who doesn't know the facts of the matter to trot out Galileo or Giordano Bruno.)

originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

The difference is that racism DOES exist.

I bet you'd complain if the media consistently portrayed atheists as being immoral hedonists, just because a handful of them are.

Are you serious? Atheists ARE maligned as being immoral hedonists! It's only recently that atheism is being considered a viable alternative.

So you have no issue with the United States Secretary of State promoting religion, or promoting anti-religion, in his official capacity as this country's leading diplomat?

He was doing neither. He was speaking to the problems in Africa today being caused by religious extremists. Islamic extremists, to be specific.

originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: FlyersFan

Abrahamic religions in general ... IMHO.

The Catholic Church has been one of the strongest supporters of scientific research for the past thousand years. We have them to thank for the modern system of higher education, hospitals and important scientific breakthroughs like the Big Bang Theory.

(Cue someone who doesn't know the facts of the matter to trot out Galileo or Giordano Bruno.)

Yes one of the biggest supporters of scientific research have read anything about Christianities background on science? They executed people for saying things like the Earth orbits the sun. They go out of their way to hold back stem cell research which has the potential to cure many diseases.
And what happened to Bruno? After having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600. Funny how they left that part out of the article.
It wasn't until the 19th century that Christians started to show support for science because by then the world started frowning on killing people for doing research.

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: buster2010
Religion is just another tool to be used to control the masses. It is used to get the people to act in a way a small minority wants them to act while retaining power over them. Religion has been used to hold humanity back long enough and it is time we move beyond it. Just look back in history and you can easily find where religion has held back mankind's progress the dark ages being just one of many examples.

Am I correct to assume that you're talking about Religion as led by man not led by the Lord Jesus?

If so then you're post is about man-made religion not the one that Jesus started - the True Christianity, which will endure forever as it's approved by his God and Father.

I am talking about all religion including the one the mythical Jesus started. Christianity has held mankind back more than any other religion.

Oh I see, you mean what Jesus taught and commanded his followers to do "held mankind back more than any other religion"?

Like these:

""But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you," [Luk 6:27 NASB]
"bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you." [Luk 6:28 NASB]

""Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either." [Luk 6:29 NASB]

""Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back." [Luk 6:30 NASB]

""Treat others the same way you want them to treat you." [Luk 6:31 NASB]
""If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them." [Luk 6:32 NASB]

""If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same." [Luk 6:33 NASB]

""If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount." [Luk 6:34 NASB]

""But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men." [Luk 6:35 NASB]

""Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful." [Luk 6:36 NASB]

""Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned." [Luk 6:37 NASB]

""Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure--pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return."" [Luk 6:38 NASB]


If so, I fail to see it.

Also, do you know that Scriptures contain scientific facts that we're just discovering now?

So to lump ALL Christian religions into one as "held[ing] mankind back more than any other religion" is really ignorance on your part.

a reply to: edmc^2

I guess you think that makes up for all the atrocities that Christianity is guilty of....

I think that if one were to fairly program a computer to analyze the Christian bashing hostilities posted on ATS from the beginning . . . it's been escalating incrementally. This thread has to be one of the worst examples in terms of numbers of such posts and in terms of the degree of hostility . . . on record.

How admirable, erudite, lofty and brilliant. /sar

originally posted by: BO XIAN

I think that if one were to fairly program a computer to analyze the Christian bashing hostilities posted on ATS from the beginning . . . it's been escalating incrementally. This thread has to be one of the worst examples in terms of numbers of such posts and in terms of the degree of hostility . . . on record.

How admirable, erudite, lofty and brilliant. /sar

Well . . . confirmation bias can be a marvelous thing. Apparently you don't see it from your side of the aisle, but it works both ways. And never mind that this thread was not a "christian bashing thread" started by Atheists/non-believers, but a thread promoting the fallacy of Christian persecution.

And perhaps you conviently miss threads like this . . .
Are Atheist just a cover Satanists?

As I stated earlier, Christians don't know how to react in times where people are free to criticize without the fear of imprisonment or death. When believers can't punish those with free minds . . . they resort to creating imaginary conflicts and inventing martyrs.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: edmc^2

I guess you think that makes up for all the atrocities that Christianity is guilty of....

I think you're confused between Christianity as taught by Jesus and Christendom as ruled by men.



So just because Christendom committed atrocities in the name of Christianity doesn't mean that Christianity was responsible for it.

Exactly what Mahatma Gandhi said:



Confirming what Christ said about his followers - what they should do.

""Treat others the same way you want them to treat you." [Luk 6:31 NASB]

""But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you," [Luk 6:27 NASB]

"bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you." [Luk 6:28 NASB]

It's like someone taking your name and used it to cast doubt on your name. That's exactly what happened to Christianity when Christendom (professed Christians) replaced Christ's teaching with theirs.

So it's Christendom (those who professed to be Christians) are the ones to be blamed for the atrocities.

In fact, time is almost here for them to answer for their crimes. The scriptures guaranty this:

in poetic terms here's what coming upon Christendom and all those who shed bloodshed in the name of God.

"For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living."" [Rev 18:3 ESV]

"Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;" [Rev 18:4 ESV]

"for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities." [Rev 18:5 ESV]
"Pay her back as she herself has paid back others, and repay her double for her deeds; mix a double portion for her in the cup she mixed." [Rev 18:6 ESV]

"As she glorified herself and lived in luxury, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning, since in her heart she says, 'I sit as a queen, I am no widow, and mourning I shall never see.'" [Rev 18:7 ESV]

"For this reason her plagues will come in a single day, death and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for mighty is the Lord God who has judged her."" [Rev 18:8 ESV]

"And the kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning." [Rev 18:9 ESV]

"They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas! Alas! You great city, you mighty city, Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come."" [Rev 18:10 ESV]

"And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn for her, since no one buys their cargo anymore," [Rev 18:11 ESV]

"cargo of gold, silver, jewels, pearls, fine linen, purple cloth, silk, scarlet cloth, all kinds of scented wood, all kinds of articles of ivory, all kinds of articles of costly wood, bronze, iron and marble," [Rev 18:12 ESV]

"cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and slaves, that is, human souls." [Rev 18:13 ESV]

""The fruit for which your soul longed has gone from you, and all your delicacies and your splendors are lost to you, never to be found again!"" [Rev 18:14 ESV]

"The merchants of these wares, who gained wealth from her, will stand far off, in fear of her torment, weeping and mourning aloud," [Rev 18:15 ESV]

""Alas, alas, for the great city that was clothed in fine linen, in purple and scarlet, adorned with gold, with jewels, and with pearls!" [Rev 18:16 ESV]

"For in a single hour all this wealth has been laid waste." And all shipmasters and seafaring men, sailors and all whose trade is on the sea, stood far off" [Rev 18:17 ESV]

"and cried out as they saw the smoke of her burning, "What city was like the great city?"" [Rev 18:18 ESV]

"And they threw dust on their heads as they wept and mourned, crying out, "Alas, alas, for the great city where all who had ships at sea grew rich by her wealth! For in a single hour she has been laid waste." [Rev 18:19 ESV]

...time is up.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Are you serious? Atheists ARE maligned as being immoral hedonists!

By the media? Or by people on Internet forums?

He was speaking to the problems in Africa today being caused by religious extremists. Islamic extremists, to be specific.

That isn't what he said. Islamic extremists do not follow a text "written 2,000 years ago," Christians do.

a reply to: buster2010

They executed people for saying things like the Earth orbits the sun.

No, they didn't.

They go out of their way to hold back stem cell research which has the potential to cure many diseases.

The Catholic Church is against stem cell research using aborted fetuses, but is not opposed to stem cell research from adult or umbilical cord stem cells.

It closes with a reminder that the use of adult stem cells and umbilical-cord blood have been shown to offer "a better way" to produce cells that can benefit patients suffering from heart disease, corneal damage, sickle cell anemia, multiple sclerosis and many other diseases.

"There is no moral objection to research and therapy of this kind, when it involves no harm to human beings at any stage of development and is conducted with appropriate informed consent," it says. "Catholic foundations and medical centers have been, and will continue to be, among the leading supporters of ethically responsible advances in the medical use of adult stem cells." (Source)

And what happened to Bruno? After having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.

I don't think that you read that article at all.