Family, Friends Of Dead Home Invaders Say “They Didn’t Deserve To Get Killed.”

The issue here is 2 fold and that is what all of these postings boil down to.
The first issue is people have the right to defend their homes and property, and use whatever means is required to do such. In the world today, if a person breaks into your home, there really is no way to determine if that person is armed or not. Nor can we determine what is going to happen once the criminal decides to act, beyond the initial part.

The second issue, is children committing adult crimes, that in itself should be of more concern for us all. Too many children are breaking the laws, doing things that normally adults would do. And that is a real problem. Something had gone wrong, very wrong, and there are no easy solutions. But some of the issues that are coming up are only going to get far worse and worse.

The question that we should be asking is how many more children are going to die before society wakes up, and decides that it is not government that has the problem but the family unit? There is a serious problem there, and it starts in the home, and society at large.

a reply to: sdcigarpig

crime has become the recreation
of choice for teenagers
commencing in the 1990's

a reply to: spirited75
Ok, so what is the change in society. Before that such was minor, and not making the kind of news that it makes now. what exactly change in the nature of society that would cause such to happen?

a reply to: sdcigarpig

We are in what is called post modern era.
The vocal majority has abandoned Judeo Christian worldview, and are now gravitating towards a naturalistic world view.

Christian worldview teaches that morals and values are universal, objective.
Naturalism teaches that morals and values are subjective and relative.

Those "kids" were up to something they knew they shouldn't be, talk about being in the wrong place at the wrong time; it's the chance you take for breaking into someone's home and crashing into "crazy." Of course, I feel bad for their parents and family members because they were loved. I do think the homeowner was over the top and lost control completely but his adrenaline and anger were up I would imagine and he did what he did. Now he's paying the price just like the intruders are paying the price. Maybe it'll be a lesson for other would be hoodlums out there, one can only hope.

a reply to: spirited75

No we aren't until the likes of ME are DEAD first.

a reply to: spirited75
The Judeo Christian world view is not necessarily a good one. It has not done so well in the past, in fact, I believe that during the civil rights era, the use of said views were used to justify Jim Crow and segregation. And lets us not forget the number of other groups that have been persecuted, all in the name of said worldview teachings, morality and objectives.

Even now, there are those in the world that use said views as an excuse to justify the outright murder or imprisonment of those who dare to think differently, or who stand up and say something is wrong. The use of religion in such, tends to use such as a weapon and does far more damage, than good. Or would you think that say the WBC and other Judeo Christian organization is such a stunning example to raise children by? And which of the 41,000 Judeo Christian beliefs hold the correct view on such? And all of them still have the same basic belief, that if you mess up, you get into trouble, thus reinforcing the fear of what happens after death.

And thus the original stance of mine, that there is no longer any fear of the consequences that is present in society, that the threat of jail or prison is no longer something that people fear, and that it is not considered a punishment. The ironic thing, is that the original idea of the modern penal system, is that if a person breaks the law, they go to a place where they are to do penance, it is not suppose to be either nice or pleasant. Rather it is suppose to be more punishment and a place to reflect on the error of ones way, and do penance, for their actions, after such, being released and forgiven.

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
a reply to: spirited75
The Judeo Christian world view is not necessarily a good one. It has not done so well in the past, in fact, I believe that during the civil rights era, the use of said views were used to justify Jim Crow and segregation. And lets us not forget the number of other groups that have been persecuted, all in the name of said worldview teachings, morality and objectives.

Even now, there are those in the world that use said views as an excuse to justify the outright murder or imprisonment of those who dare to think differently, or who stand up and say something is wrong. The use of religion in such, tends to use such as a weapon and does far more damage, than good. Or would you think that say the WBC and other Judeo Christian organization is such a stunning example to raise children by? And which of the 41,000 Judeo Christian beliefs hold the correct view on such? And all of them still have the same basic belief, that if you mess up, you get into trouble, thus reinforcing the fear of what happens after death.

And thus the original stance of mine, that there is no longer any fear of the consequences that is present in society, that the threat of jail or prison is no longer something that people fear, and that it is not considered a punishment. The ironic thing, is that the original idea of the modern penal system, is that if a person breaks the law, they go to a place where they are to do penance, it is not suppose to be either nice or pleasant. Rather it is suppose to be more punishment and a place to reflect on the error of ones way, and do penance, for their actions, after such, being released and forgiven.

as usual per previous verbal intercourse you missed my point completely.

i do not wish to cover three pages with you to achieve your understanding.

You posed the question about what happened in the last 50-60 years and I told you.

naturalist worldview which is being forced upon the peons is nihilistic, atheistic, agnostic and proposes secular humanism and moral relativity.

Even now, there are those in the world that use said views as an excuse to justify the outright murder or imprisonment of those who dare to think differently, or who stand up and say something is wrong. The use of religion in such, tends to use such as a weapon and does far more damage, than good.

tell me where this is happening.

a reply to: spirited75
Well as you asked, here you go, where a person can be sentenced to death or imprisonment, using the Judaic religions, as justification for such. And here is your answer:

Islam is also part of that Judaic belief system, and thus any Islamic Republic, where religion is the dominate force in society, such as Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and other countries such as that. And for more of a Christian beliefs, how about Italy, or even some of the African Countries, such as Uganda, where violation of religious law is grounds for imprisonment and or death.
And while yes, while the Jim Crow did happen a good 50/60 years ago, it is still a very valid example of where religion is used as a weapon to justify the outright persecution and discrimination against people.

And even now in the USA, religion is often used to promote and keep the masses ignorant of what is and is not the truth of the matter. And what is worst is that the very people who are charged and tasked with guiding people, do such when it benefits a particular point of view, even using it to justify the murder of those who they view as doing wrong. Abortion clinic shootings or bombing ring any bells? How about the WBC church, they stand and protest just about anything that they find distasteful, even at the point of doing such at the time when people are hurting. And how about those scandals that tend to plague 2 of the biggest Judeo Christian church’s around, after all I am sure child brides and molestations, child abuse paint a very good picture of Christianity.

You keep pointing out religion, and each time I keep pointing out and refuting the argument. And as current trends hold true, religious arguments hold no weight in a court of law in the United States of America. Nor have they for years. Every time a religious argument is brought before the courts, 95 to 97% of the time, the side that brings it up loses the case, fully and completely.

And even then you fail to admit that the driving force in any religion or theological belief to keep people from breaking said theological laws, is fear, plain and simple. If you break one of the religious laws, the fear being that in the next life, one does not go to the nice place but goes to the bad place.

But what you fail to refute or even accept, is that the basic argument the premise of my postings, is that there is a lack of fear for the consequences for personal actions. Look back to the time before the 1970’s and the place to fear was jail and prison. If you broke the law, you went to jail, and it was not a nice place. Now days, most jails are no longer what they were, nor do they hold the same weight or fear of them that they once did. 3 meals a day, a place to sleep, and the only difference is a person can not just walk out the front gate. To make matters worse, the justice system is messed up where someone with wealth can get away with some of the most heinous crimes and have a cushy sentence. Just ask the children of the heir to the Dupont family, or the kid from Texas, or the business owner in Oregon, or any number of big name stars, like Lohan or Hilton. They do not fear prison or jail, and flagrantly violate the law. And in areas where they do fear the jails and prisons, they have a lower recidivism rate. After all, if more jails were like that in Maricopa county, one would think that there would be far less people wanting to go there or breaking the law. But the jail there in Maricopa county is only part of it, the other part is that they try to help the person who is convicted, to get back into society, rather than just turn them out with the same bad habits that got them in there in the first place.

a reply to: sdcigarpig
Jim crow laws began in 1860's

not 40 years ago.

more example of grossly inaccurate grasp of reality.

judeo christiam does NOT include islam

jew christian and islam are abrahamic religions.

more grossly inaccurate evidence of a poor grasp of facts and reality.

so here you are. yes i agree that all the problems with crime today is because the people committing the crime do not FEAR the consequences.

i am quite certain that you will babble on some about that as well.
i am done with this babblefest you are trying to foster.

do you consider the crimes that islam does to be wrong?
they do not because they have different VALUES AND MORALS than you do
they are not afraito blow themselves up where you would be afraid to blow
yourself up because the VALUES AND MORALS are different.

a reply to: sdcigarpig

mr cigar pig, i worked in prisons for more than ten years.

what do you need to inform me about the inner workings of a prison?
have you ever been to a prison, been inside, if not then all
your information is supplied by people like me who go in to a
prison and come back out and tell you.

those who can , do.
those who cant, teach.

a reply to: spirited75
Mr. Spirited 75:
While I have not been in prison, or jail, I am however very close friends with several who have been in both prison and jails, along with worked with people who have worked in both systems, to include the supermax out in Colorado, along with the military system.

And while you work in the prison system, and could give us all an education about such, it is the court cases that lead up to the current penal system that is of interest, as the courts had a hand in such.

And while it is of interest to some, I am 3 years of classes from being a priest, so I think I know something about the Abrahamic religions, and what is and is not included in the Judaism, and as much as you would not like to admit such, Islam is a part of the Judaic Christian faith. They have the same ties and similar beliefs. Even the punishments and laws are very similar to such, including the 600+ laws that are in in the old testament.
And while many would not admit such, the reality is that if we were walking in the same shoes as those who are in say the current middle east, we would have the same values, if not the same tactics as that which is seen. And how ironic, as barbaric as the Muslims may seem to be, they are admirable in one aspect, they are willing to die for what they believe in, and take actions as necessary to achieve the ends.

But beyond the digression that you have give, you did ask for examples of where religion was used, and when such was given, you still refuse to accept that such is not always a good idea. Nor have you refuted the argument, and it is not babbling. And if you were not so insulting, and would look at the basis of the arguments I have laid out, then perhaps you would see that there is some basis of logic and justification to the actual things that I have stated.

Can we get a moderator to weigh in on this?

a reply to: sdcigarpig
It is largely because "THOU SHALT NOT KILL "should have read "THOU SHALT NOT MURDER" as the original translation was read in the early Jewish writings.

a reply to: sdcigarpig

islam does not believe that Christ was the son of God and there fore they are not a Christian religion.

If you are three years from being a priest, what religion are you becoming a priest in if I may ask.

a reply to: sdcigarpig

Abrahamic religions are Jewish, Christian and Islam because they are monotheistic.

Judeo-Christian pertains to only Jewish and Christian religions,
as deduced by the two names that make up the word.
It does not include Islam which does not believe in trinity.

I learned a long time ago to not wrestle with a pig, he enjoys it and I just get filthy.

I already told you that your paradigm was correct---
that there is no fear of consequences and that is
why these two criminals broke into the old lady home and got killed, which is just and good.

I remember when I was a teenager, I felt like I was immortal. I could do absolutely anything and come out of it without a scratch. Sometimes my friends and I would get a bug up our ass and decide to do something crazy, like jump off a bridge into a river or drive a car with someone sitting on the hood. You know, stupid kid stuff.

You combine that feeling of immortality that I'm sure we all had in one way or another, and something stupid like breaking into someone's house then you got yourself a recipe for disaster. I feel the old man was justified in taking a life, especially since both kids decided to invade the house at the same time. When you're outnumbered you don't have time to think, just react.

nice topic... The friends and family of the dead home invaders need to understand that law abiding citizens DO NOT like people breaking into their homes. The fact that the dead home invaders were teenagers does not make the crime any less of a crime, Those kids could have lived if they chose not to break into peoples homes to take what others worked for. I guess this is what happens when some people grow up thinking that what isnt theirs...is actually theirs.

originally posted by: spirited75
a reply to: sdcigarpig

Judeo-Christian pertains to only Jewish and Christian religions,
as deduced by the two names that make up the word.
It does not include Islam which does not believe in trinity.
.

Jews dont believe in the trinity either.

a reply to: sk0rpi0n

exactly.
2nd

Reminds me of the story of the lady in Texas who shot and killed a home intruder. While being questioned, they asked her why she shot the guy 6 times. "Because when I pulled the trigger again, it just went CLICK".

Yes, before anyone points out that Snopes says it's false, it's still true, in that anyone in the same situation would feel the same way. Keep shooting until either he/she stops, or you run out and have to reload.

Sorry, break into my house, there's a small present I've got for you, and it has 15 rounds in it. And I'm pretty damned good with it too.