Putin's Hmn Rghts Cncil Accidentally Posts Real Crimean Election Results; Only 15% Voted For Annexa

a reply to: DJW001

All assets were returned.
And with the referendum, which made Crimea Russian soil, Ukranian forces had no legal right so stay in Crimea.
Contract ended - leave the premises. What's wrong with that? Crimea is an Autonomous Republic. It can do what it wants. It never signed any agreement saying it will be part of Ukraine. Check in in the Net.
BTW, look ath the celebration of May9 in Sevastopol and same in Maryupol. See the difference? Who's happy and who's not? Oh, and about 10 people died in Maryupol that day. Here, to Ukranian demorracy. Heil Bandera!

www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
Guys shouting "f*ucking faschists"
Hope you watched the second video to the end.
There is much more on the net.
Live videos. Not news or anything. Live videos of people being harassed and killed. Why are people so stupid. After 2 major wars they still can't use their brains. All children know what's right and wrong. What is the matter with us now?

a reply to: thegeck

All assets were returned.

So the Ukraians have returned to there bases there? Or is this some new use of the word "returned?"

And with the referendum, which made Crimea Russian soil, Ukranian forces had no legal right so stay in Crimea.

Crimea had no legal right to hold such a referendum.

Contract ended - leave the premises. What's wrong with that? Crimea is an Autonomous Republic. It can do what it wants. It never signed any agreement saying it will be part of Ukraine. Check in in the Net.

But its autonomy in the Crimean constitution does not extend to leaving Ukraine. Crimea was conquered by the Russian Empire, became part of the Soviet Union after the Civil War and was given to Ukraine by Nikita Khrushchev. Since when have the Crimean people signed anything to determine their status? Look it up on the web yourself.

BTW, look ath the celebration of May9 in Sevastopol and same in Maryupol. See the difference? Who's happy and who's not? Oh, and about 10 people died in Maryupol that day. Here, to Ukranian demorracy. Heil Bandera!

Pro-Russia fascists are going on a killing spree all through Ukraine. Crimea is being spared because they enslaved themselves without putting up a fight.

a reply to: TritonTaranis

Ah, TritonTaranis. Here you are. Why don't we remember all the police officers killed in the conflict. They have families. Should we now legally and without any legal action burn cops? Hey, Boston, kill cops! Hurrah! We can do it now. It's legal in Ukraine! It should be legal everywhere! Triton, that is no the way to go. Those are all living people, killed for little to no reason. I only hope you are as brave as you sound. Blah-blah, protestors. Beaten Stabbed. Me so angry. Lol. Brouse the web. It will cure you.

a reply to: thegeck

Why don't we remember all the police officers killed in the conflict. They have families. Should we now legally and without any legal action burn cops?

The cops were killed by Russian operatives. That is a known fact.

a reply to: DJW001

I was talking about military assets. Please don't pick on words.

It did. Crimea, as an autonomous rebublic or *A SOvereign State* had it's own Constitution back in 1992, but Ukraine said :"Hey, your constitution does not allign with ours. Get rid of it" And they did. They even had a president back then, but Ukraine said :"Hey, sorry guys, no president." But the staus of Crimea stays the same. It is an autonomous republic, a Sovereign State and it can damn well chose what to do.

Autonomy is like divorce. You can go out with whoever you want do. Like it. Don't like it. NOBODY CARES. If you want slaves, you missed the ere for slaves. Sorry. Wrong timing. Go back.

And I liked your comment about Pro-Russian faschists, like they are the ones shouting "Heil Bendera!". Bendera, Hitler's ally, did things you would'nt imagine. He killed jews. Because jews were, according to the books, a dirty, garbage race, He killed women, children. He cut off women's breasts and tied toddlers to trees with barbed wire...Russians came and wiped him out. I agreee. It is the Russians that are faschist. Heil Bendera! Heil Hitler! Kil the Russian faschists!

a reply to: thegeck

Did any Eastern European nations at the end of WWII sign up to be a part of the Soviet Union?
Did Chechnya sign up to be a part of Russia?
Did the German territory of Kaliningrad sign up to be a part of Russia?

Did the people of Crimea sign on to have armed masked men seize the government buildings and arrest the Crimean Prime minister?
Did the people of Crimea sign on to an arbitrary appointment of a new leader?

Those questions cut both ways.


As for autonomous go back a page where I responded / posted info on Crimea and their status. Simply stating a territory is autonomous is not the same as stating a country is independent. What Crimea did violated not only the Ukraine constitution but the Crimean one as well.



Actually here ya go -
www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: DJW001

I want some proof. Go on. Give us the proof. Proof or GTFO.

originally posted by: thegeck
a reply to: DJW001

I want some proof. Go on. Give us the proof. Proof or GTFO.

The bulk of us want an independent investigation to determine who is at fault for the protest deaths as well as the deaths in Odessa. Your position is not on stable ground either since investigations are ongoing.

Simply dismissing a position while at the same time assuming the opposite position doesn't work either when there is no verifiable evidence / facts to determine who was behind it.

For all we know both sides had the same idea and didn't realize it.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Ah, good points, Xcathdra.
1. No.
2. No(like Scotland. Highlanders are a proud and stubborn people.). But it was part of Russia back in the 1800. Many European nations have such territories. Might as well talk about their status, since we started this discussion.
3. No. Personally, I think Kaliningrad should be returned. IMO. But that's my opinion. IF the people are ready to, that is. Good point. But I would raise same question about Puerto Rico, for example. Or Hawaii. Or America, if we go further. Nobody asked the American Indians(funny. Indians. Columbus made a mistake - we retranslate same mistake. Anyway.) if they agree with the US of A, buuuyaaaa, taking over their soil. If we're honest, fully honest, this issue pretty much fails for all of us. So you can choose, whether you want to be true to the idea of Social Justice or just talk the talk. BTW American Indians still live in reservations. On their soil. Do you want to talk about it?

Autonomous means independance. That's the meaning of the term. If you have an autonomous breathing unit in your space suit, you can chose, whith unit to breathe from. Hence the term. Unit A or Unit B. You can always use unit B. Your choice. Maybe you like the letter A. Your choice. But you can choose. Today we will use B. But hey. I FORBID YOU TO USE B. Don't you dare do it, Xcathdra. If you do it, I will punish you.

BTW, good points given. Thank you, Xcathdra. Kaliningrad has been an invisible thorn in the bottom for quite a while not. Very intelligent of you to mention it.

a reply to: DJW001

Abandon all hope, DJ, here is a rope and a bar of soap. Link not working. Can't copy lext in the link. Have no fingers. Also can't google it . Mom and dad, I love you. Do not cry for me. I will google in heaven. Arggghghghhghg.



LOL

a reply to: DJW001

Oh, and DJ, it is not legal for you to express your opinion. I forbid you.
I am self-appointed president of the world and my first decree is that :
1: By no means shall the citizen of Earth, which goes by the name of DJW001. express his views anywhere on the internet.
2. If such shall take place, DJWoo1 is to be but in jail.

The end.

Funny enough, but thet's the new laws in Ukraine. You protest against Maidan - you go to jail.

And DJW001, do take it serious, since this law is in force.


Your's truly,
President of the World,
thegeck

a reply to: Xcathdra

I agree. An investigation should take place.
Right now we cannot only make assumptions about what really happened. We've all (I hope) seen all the available videos in the net and made our conclusions, but since none of us has actually been there, our opinions are invalid.
Also, I do hope that the investigation is carried out by UN AND * EU * specialists. We all want the truth.

Personally, I am so tired of lies.

originally posted by: thegeck

Ah, good points, Xcathdra.
1. No.
2. No(like Scotland. Highlanders are a proud and stubborn people.). But it was part of Russia back in the 1800. Many European nations have such territories. Might as well talk about their status, since we started this discussion.
3. No. Personally, I think Kaliningrad should be returned. IMO. But that's my opinion.

This is where the other shoe drops. The German population in Kaliningrad is extremely low. At the end of WWII The Soviet Union forced / moved out all the Germans and sent in Russian's. The same thing the Soviet Union did with Crimea.

originally posted by: thegeck
IF the people are ready to, that is. Good point. But I would raise same question about Puerto Rico, for example.

Puerto Rico is a US Commonwealth. They have held several referendums over the years to determine their own status. The options are usually -
* - Status quo no change remains a commonwealth.
* - Become a US state
* - Become independent.

They actually have another vote coming up sometime this year I believe. As a commonwealth they are all US nationality.. they have representation in Congress (non voting except for committees).

originally posted by: thegeck
Or Hawaii.

Hawaii actually have a "separatist" movement of their own. Prior to the arrival / annexation by the US they were ruled by a Queen Liliʻuokalani and were a Republic of sorts. There are people here who wish to return back to that original status however they are not blowing up buildings or attacking non Hawaiians.

originally posted by: thegeck
Or America, if we go further. Nobody asked the American Indians(funny. Indians. Columbus made a mistake - we retranslate same mistake. Anyway.) if they agree with the US of A, buuuyaaaa, taking over their soil. If we're honest, fully honest, this issue pretty much fails for all of us. So you can choose, whether you want to be true to the idea of Social Justice or just talk the talk. BTW American Indians still live in reservations. On their soil. Do you want to talk about it?

First and foremost people need to get over this stigma / assumption that a country does not want to discuss its past. I take the position of the truth is important, and it is talked about so we never repeat it.

Sure we can talk about Native Americans / 1st Nations. Lets go back to the beginning when the Europeans loaded onto the Nina, Pinta, and the get me the hell out of here and set out for the new world. European powers got the ball rolling on that. Tribal nations in the US are autonomous and deal directly with the Federal government via The Bureau of Indian Affairs . Aside from treaty / agreement law enforcement generally has no authority in tribal areas. they have their own court system etc etc. As for land that is still in the works. There are tribal nations who have resolved the issues dealing with land and the federal government.

originally posted by: thegeck
Autonomous means independance. That's the meaning of the term. If you have an autonomous breathing unit in your space suit, you can chose, whith unit to breathe from. Hence the term. Unit A or Unit B. You can always use unit B. Your choice. Maybe you like the letter A. Your choice. But you can choose. Today we will use B. But hey. I FORBID YOU TO USE B. Don't you dare do it, Xcathdra. If you do it, I will punish you.

When looking at the term autonomous and applying it to a political situation, the meaning is not as clear cut.

It would be like living in a house with 5 family members. 4 of them hold mundane 9 to 5 office jobs and the 5th is a police officer. The police officer, while residing in the same house, has the authority to make an arrest where as the other 4 do not. Autonomous allows for specialized treatment.

Autonomous in the case of Crimea - Crimea has the authority / autonomy to exercise greater control over there area. Where Crimea can legislate new laws into place, a regular province cannot. When Crimea passes a law that conflicts with Ukraine law the Crimean government can request the Ukraine government to review and approve / deny / modify the proposal. Crimea has greater control over their judicial system like appointing judges / prosecutors etc where a regular province would defer to the Federal Ukraine government.

It also means that some laws created by Kiev do not apply to Crimea.

Crimea has the ability to control its internal affairs however their autonomy does not allow them to engage in certain functions on the global level.

1 recent example was the request by Crimea to the OSCE for election monitors. The official request could not be used because the action violated Ukraine law.

Another example was for the Crimean government to ask for military assistance.
They negotiated directly with Russia, which is foreign policy and a nono for Crimea.

I don't want to put up a wall of text so if you have just ask.

originally posted by: thegeck
BTW, good points given. Thank you, Xcathdra. Kaliningrad has been an invisible thorn in the bottom for quite a while not. Very intelligent of you to mention it.

I brought it up in another thread dealing with Putins argument about the breakup of the Soviet Union, the right to intervene in a foreign nation when "ethnic insert ethnicities here" while talking about how former SSR's were given land without consideration of whatever excuse he used I forget. You raise some interesting points yourself so thank you.

If we were to subscribe to Putin's logic ....

Oh what a merry time of misrule that would be.

a reply to: Xcathdra

1. I haven't looked ito this matter, but point sounds logical. Germans(or most probably Austrians, the Polish and Netherlanders) would most likely have to move out, although many stayed. To day, the population of Kaliningrad(Koenigsburgh) is pretty diverse. But, again, I agree, that many must have fleed. Can't argue as I haven't looked into the matter, but I take your word.

2. Puerto Rico is US commonwelth...lol. Jalalabad is US soil. C'mon. It's Puerto Rico. That's not English. They had a referendum - yes. US had military bases there. US boyZ. With gunZ. Little RWB-stiped green men. Lol.

History Channel

"During the Spanish-American War, U.S. forces launch their invasion of Puerto Rico, the 108-mile-long, 40-mile-wide island that was one of Spain's two principal possessions in the Caribbean. With little resistance and only seven deaths, U.S. troops under General Nelson A. Miles were able to secure the island by mid-August. After the signing of an armistice with Spain, American troops raised the U.S. flag over the island, formalizing U.S. authority over its one million inhabitants. In December, the Treaty of Paris was signed, ending the Spanish-American War and officially approving the cession of Puerto Rico to the United States."

LOL

In the first three decades of its rule, the U.S. government made efforts to Americanize its new possession, including granting full U.S. citizenship to Puerto Ricans in 1917 and considering a measure that would make English the island's official language.

www.history.com...

Xcathdra, do stop.
www.youtube.com...
Look at this experiment.IMO, if US can have grapes, Russia can have grapes too. Or you think you're special? Arian race? Center of the world. No. Equality.

3. Hawaii may have any movement they like. That's not the point. There are protest movements everywhere, but the point in protest movements is that they should represent the people's cravings. When 50 000 people(with a 45 mil. population), like on Maidan, take over power, ignoring the elected president, it is not right. Hell, make it 10 times the size, 500 000 people, they still represent a smaaaaaaaaal portion of the total population. Of coure, they have the right to ask for changes - and they got what they wanted -Yanukovi signed the rollback to the 2004 constitution and declared temporary peace. Yatsenuk(BTW, in Russian Yaitsenuh is "ball sniffer". Lol. Mind the spelling, just 2 letters added. ) But then they just top him straight away. Sure he was an asshole. No illusions on that, but MANY PEOPLE VOTED FOR HIM.
*uck the people. Is that the "NEW DEAL"? You know, killing is not difficult. Making pece is. That's why there is one diplomat for 1000 soldiers. Diplomacy helped with Syria. Diplomacy will solve the problems in Ukraine. Where in the UN BTW, circle-jerking? Round conference hall. Easily done. Jerk. Jerk. Jerk. All happy. Because I don't actually seee them trying to achieve a peaceful future for the Ukraine. And for Serbia. And for Iraq. And For Lybia. And for Syria. And for Afganistan. Nice job UN, you worthless piece of **it. That's what I'm talking about. I love the Americans, but I hate America. I'm not American BTW. So that you know. A secret I can reveal only to a smart person. The stupid one would use it as a weapon against me.

Today I watched this music clip. Sting - Russians. www.youtube.com...

All the smartasses out there should keep in mind that the next global war will be...damn...it will be hell on Earth. Biological, Nuclear, Chemical...both sides got a lot of that. And up to date there is no AA asset capable of intercepting a modern nuclear warhead. Especially if it's the "Satan". When Russia strikes, so will America. Everybody will die. Have no illusions. You read the books. Oh, yeah, Australia will survive. Most likely. Do you live in Australia? Hell, my last GF moved there, nice place. Nice feedback of the country. It's like an American Russia. A combination of the two. "Crazy" people, civilized life. But I digress.

4. Hmmm. Good point. I fully agree with you on this one. It is true that the decisions made in Crimea were a bit too fast IMO. I see that times called for such fast measures, but they did not do Crimea any good in the end. They should have taken their pace.
Point on Crimean goverment asking for military assisatence taken. I agree with it too. At that time Crimea did not have the appropriate status to ask for military assistance. So all in all, it is an infringement of international law.
But I tend to look on the final result, like the Republicans in the US, but I must agree with you, that one can't seek his goals through foul moves. Peace has been achieved. A couple of hundred kms away, people are dying. I'd vote for peace. I mean, I've seen the celabration in Sevastopol on video and i've seen what happened in Maryupol. Kind of a bottomline for me. Live video's are cool because you can see the people's emotions and as I have studied Psychology for quite a while, the videos kind of speak for themselves.
Same in Odessa. Only difference is that Odessa actually shocked me, and I've been in two conflicts already, Being shot at is not fun. In Khorvatiya, for example, I saw people jerked out of the car and dragged into the forest. I don't know what happened to them, I was only a boy back then. Rebellion in Mumbay, Bombay back in the day. I remember that. Our car was shot at. 4 bullet holes, mostly at the back. Mother, father and child in the car. And taxi driver. Maybe he was the Rebe? Because who esle would a normal human being shoot at, huh?. War is sick. You will most likely die, sorry.

5. I would not touch upon the breakup of the Sioviet Union. It broke up. End of story. Putin uses the idea mostly for rhetorical reasons. A Russian saying "What has been, has gone". Don't take it serious. I don't. And hope nobody else does.
Putin is a politician. All politicians are a bit over the top, when their country is involved. Nothing bad about that. But Putin'r rating whithin Russia has gone up quite a bit.Political goal? 100% International community? Go to hell. No doubt that if there is an election, Putin will be the №1 candidate. Call it non-democratic? Don't. The guy's done more to-day than most modern politicians.
He is corrupt, I asssume(no proof), he is an asshole to the MM(well, I still read a lot of critics on his policies in Russian papers), he does not want to give away his post(true, I wouldn't either), so all in all, well, he's pretty much the ordinary politician, but with efficient methods. That you cannot take away.
And I must state this separately, there is no censorship in Russia. You can write whatever you want as long as it's not total BS. The internet has made any sort of censorship absolete. Even with the new laws. Easily diverted or evaded. Say, post on a .com site. Automatically, you are not subject to Russian laws. Meanwhile, news on .ru sites are censored. Mildly, actually. I mean, c'mon. post "9/11 was an inside job" in US MM. What would happen? Exactly.


And Xcathdra, thanks a lot for the points. A pleasure to discuss important issues with an intelligent human being. We may both ne wrong on some points, but at least we discuss them and, as one smart man said, "discussion is a way of teaching". We both gain from it.

originally posted by: TritonTaranis
The fact pro Russian supporters keep saying one thing only should tell you all you need to know

We're against the fascist government in Ukraine

That's all fine calling them fascists but we all know it Russian propaganda banded around by agents in the East on the streets

It's almost like they're totally ignoring the elections to be held soon in the country

So it is clear as day to anyone that there is a Russian push behind these clueless handful of armed separatists

Elections??? Elections are held by fascists to confuse the masses into believing that their vote matters, when the fascists themselves count the votes and supply the candidates.

Elections have very little to do with actual democracy when a state institution runs then, and all to do with democracy when people organize their own elections.

Please, tell me more about the democracy of fascism. The rougher your argument is, the more refined ours will become.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Vovin
Probably because everything you post is composed of lies.

Provide some evidence that Russia invaded Crimea. Provide evidence that Putin "admitted" to it. He did no such thing. He reiterated that Russian was already deployed there as part of the Black Sea Fleet.

Feel free to post your sources that show I'm lying. Its getting old, even more so, when you make the claim yet never support it.


No Putin did not say that about the Black Sea fleet and the Green men on the ground. What Putin did state was the people in green uniforms with no insignia were Russian soldiers.

Pop quiz hotshot -
If those troops were authorized to be there by treaty (gallivanting across the length and width of Crimea), as you and others maintain, then why did they remove their insignias? Why did Putin / Lavrov constantly state they had no troops in Crimea except for the Black Sea contingent and that the ones roaming around Crimea without insignias are "civil defense forces". Why did the no insignia people refuse to discuss where they were from / nationality? Why did they refuse to provide details to people asking.

All your "facts", indeed your entire foundation for your views, are not substantiated by any facts.

You have ZERO proof that any Russian soldiers removed their insignias.

You have ZERO proof that the defense forces without insignia were anybody other than, you know, actual self-defense forces.

Why did they refuse to discuss? Because it's their business. Maybe if you had a view of modern revolutions that ranged beyond MSM coverage, you would see in every single situation that fighters from all factions act anonymously as to not be identified and hunted down. Why would Crimea be any different?

And what's even better is that you are wrong on the last count. Many of those in the self-defense force openly stated who they were. Many were defectors from the Ukrainian army, exiled Berkut officers, Crimean citizens with past military experience.

I already told you the there were spetsnaz operatives operating throughout Crimea. They were identifiable but the operations were discreet, because it involved disabling Ukrainian military operational ability to launch any attacks within Crimea. They had nothing to do with the self-defense forces that were on the streets of cities, who did not need the help.

Do you have anymore accusations for me to tear apart or maybe some actual, first-hand sources and evidence to back up your story of a Russian invasion?

originally posted by: Vovin
You have ZERO proof that any Russian soldiers removed their insignias.

You have ZERO proof that the defense forces without insignia were anybody other than, you know, actual self-defense forces.

So soldiers without insignias who tote around with russian military gear, not available to anyone else is not proof? I suppose these self defense forces just got a donation from russia. Not to mention admitting on camera that they're russian. That's not proof. Putin admitting that they had troops is not proof.

a reply to: DJW001

The cops were killed by Russian operatives. That is a known fact.

Actually, I'd like to see the proof of that as well, if you don't mind.

originally posted by: PsykoOps

originally posted by: Vovin
You have ZERO proof that any Russian soldiers removed their insignias.

You have ZERO proof that the defense forces without insignia were anybody other than, you know, actual self-defense forces.

So soldiers without insignias who tote around with russian military gear, not available to anyone else is not proof? I suppose these self defense forces just got a donation from russia. Not to mention admitting on camera that they're russian. That's not proof. Putin admitting that they had troops is not proof.

You are aware that we are discussing Ukraine? Shares borders and culture and population and military weapon designs with Russia?

Again, for the umpteenth time, Putin reiterated that there were Russian troops in Crimea, as part of the Black Sea Fleet and spestnaz operations. If you want to see what the spetsnaz ops looked like, the evidence is in the public domain, but they were far removed from the cities and were clearly wearing Russian insignia.

Putin was not referring to anything pertaining to the self-defense forces. If you have some real hard evidence that the self-defense forces were RUSSIAN MILITARY UNITS (key words here) then put it up. Otherwise, you're all just blowing hot air. All your claims about the self defense forces using Russian hardware mean nothing when it's understood that Ukraine is a top world's exporter and stockpiler of light arms- or, maybe, the Russians simply supplied weapons to the self-defense units? It's not a difficult concept and it happens all the time around the world, otherwise known as proxy warfare.