U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheists Lose...Again.

a reply to: rickynews

And praying in a public place is important how?
We are talking about praying in a government building.
Since you want to bring up flag burning, could I burn a flag in the building that they pray in?

originally posted by: rickynews

originally posted by: gusdynamite
a reply to: rickynews

Atheists are communists, now?

Not all atheists are communists, yet there is a direct tie, based on the world historical record, that most communists are atheists. Does that mean most atheists are communists? I don't necessarily think so, but there is no denying the fact that both atheism and communism have been historically aligned and oftentimes in near lock step throughout world history - specifically in terms of their God-less belief system and God-less religiosity. And make no mistake, Atheism is a Religion.

Atheism is the state of not believing in a creator or higher power - nothing more, nothing less.

I think a closer direct tie for you to have latched your claws into might be the correlation between religion and violence.

In your words, using my own logic:

Does that mean most religious are violent? I don't necessarily think so, but there is no denying the fact that both religion and violence have been historically aligned and oftentimes in near lock-step throughout world history.

And for goodness sake, I have to say again - atheism is a lack of belief. It's not organised and is not a religion. You know that and I am sure you're smart enough to apply a better argument than such a weak lie.

a reply to: Sremmos80

While they pray? lol.

a reply to: rickynews

ok, and i hadn't thought of that (was starting to get tired, lol)

i'm not even against PUBLIC prayer...if you're at a restaurant, and you need to say a prayer before you eat, or whatever, fine, that's fantastic...just don't ask me to participate...

as i've already said, religious activities should have no part in official governmental functions. there shouldn't be the ten commandments on court houses, there shouldn't be any mention of "god" on our currency, or in our pledge of allegiance, there shouldn't be any prayers said before meetings of government officials(on official business)...

i don't necessarily have a problem with people having religious beliefs. i DO have a problem with people with religious beliefs injecting those beliefs, and practices into governmental function, as that has the potential to impact ME, and i don't share those beliefs. which all goes back to my original stance; "i don't mind that you have religious beliefs, just don't try to force them on me" ...i mean, that's the same way i look at homosexuality, and drug use, and a number of other things... i'm not gonna discriminate against you, because of that thing that you do, that i don't do....you're cool with me, as long as you don't ask me to participate, or try to force it on me. and i think that's a very fair way of thinking..

originally posted by: Daedalus
a reply to: rickynews

ok, and i hadn't thought of that (was starting to get tired, lol)

i'm not even against PUBLIC prayer...if you're at a restaurant, and you need to say a prayer before you eat, or whatever, fine, that's fantastic...just don't ask me to participate...

as i've already said, religious activities should have no part in official governmental functions. there shouldn't be the ten commandments on court houses, there shouldn't be any mention of "god" on our currency, or in our pledge of allegiance, there shouldn't be any prayers said before meetings of government officials(on official business)...

i don't necessarily have a problem with people having religious beliefs. i DO have a problem with people with religious beliefs injecting those beliefs, and practices into governmental function, as that has the potential to impact ME, and i don't share those beliefs. which all goes back to my original stance; "i don't mind that you have religious beliefs, just don't try to force them on me" ...i mean, that's the same way i look at homosexuality, and drug use, and a number of other things... i'm not gonna discriminate against you, because of that thing that you do, that i don't do....you're cool with me, as long as you don't ask me to participate, or try to force it on me. and i think that's a very fair way of thinking..

Actually, I think the U.S. Supreme Court ruling is fairly aligned, or at least quite close to your position, in that nobody is forced to participate in the prayer before town hall meetings. They may be invited to participate (not sure, tho), but the Court found that there was no attempt to "convert" and no attempt to "force" anyone to join in the prayer.

As for the mention of God in our Pledge of Allegiance, or on U.S. currency or otherwise, the fact is that the overwhelming majority and overall population of Americans has a belief in an Almighty God, and removing any reference to God is unquestionably an atheistic position - so removing mention of God in U.S. society altogether it is not likely to ever happen, simply because most Americans support referencing God and acknowledging that America has indeed been blessed in many ways by Almighty God.

a reply to: rickynews

give it a couple of generations and you will find religion will die off.
Already happening in the western world.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: rickynews

And praying in a public place is important how?
We are talking about praying in a government building.
Since you want to bring up flag burning, could I burn a flag in the building that they pray in?

No, I'm certain Americans cannot burn a flag inside a public building, for concern that the building would catch fire.
Equating burning a flag inside a building, and saying a prayer inside a building is just silliness, and defies basic common sense.

However, if an American wanted to burn a flag in the public square, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that, as abhorrent and as offensive as other Americans may find such conduct to be, Americans indeed have the right to burn an American Flag based on Freedom of Speech grounds "endowed upon them (Americans) by Our Creator", and likewise..., the U.S. Supreme Court has also ruled and found that Americans have the right to pray in the public square, based also on the rights to Free Speech ,"endowed upon them (Americans) by Our Creator".

a reply to: boymonkey74

I used to hold that view and yet it's going strong. The War on terror has been framed in religious terms as was the Gulf War. So we find ourselves in the 21st Century and fighting wars for religious overtones and scratching our heads as to how on Earth it happened.

Call me a pessimist. Religions are persistent and will probably continue in one form or other for a long time yet. It's not so much the religions that bug me, it's the curtain they represent for hiding the true motivations of people in power. Seems like every conflict and war has the aggressor citing God as their special friend...

a reply to: boymonkey74
Yep, I agree. As people become more questioning and start thinking critically, blind faith will become a curious eccentricity of the few.
Here in the SW of England a local council lost at the high court with their demands for prayers a couple of years ago. A surprisingly impartial decision in a country which (still) has an established church...I can almost hear the death bell for that as well...can't wait.
BBC News - Bideford Town Council prayers ruled unlawful

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: rickynews

give it a couple of generations and you will find religion will die off.
Already happening in the western world.

There is no evidence to support your claim that "religion will die off". At best, it is wishful thinking by God-less atheists
who long for the world of communist rule and tyrannical government - perpetuated by the likes of their heroes, including but not limited to Karl Marx, Joseph Stalin, Kim Jong IL, Pol Pot, Napoleon Bonaparte, among others - all of whom have wound up in the trash bin of world history.

a reply to: rickynews
What a ridiculous generalised statement about people who do not believe in gods - communists? Really?
Where is YOUR evidence for that? I do not believe in any gods but do not support communism...silly unsubstantiated stereotype at best, sheesh.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: rickynews
What a ridiculous generalised statement about people who do not believe in gods - communists? Really?
Where is YOUR evidence for that? I do not believe in any gods but do not support communism...silly unsubstantiated stereotype at best, sheesh.

Much evidence of atheism and communism alignment has already been presented throughout this thread. You'll have to retrace the thread. Too much to list in reply.

a reply to: rickynews
I read it and saw how ridiculous your slur was when I replied previously.
You cannot equate lack of belief in any gods to automatic love of communism and tyranny, but then you probably know that and are just sharing your assertions to muddy the water when you have no real case against those who do not believe in gods.

*Edit*
Much evidence of religious oppression and killing of non-believers of all flavours, but it doesn't equate that all believers want to commit acts of violence.
See how silly your claims are in reverse.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: rickynews
I read it and saw how ridiculous your slur was when I replied previously.
You cannot equate lack of belief in any gods to automatic love of communism and tyranny, but then you probably know that and are just sharing your assertions to muddy the water when you have no real case against those who do not believe in gods.

*Edit*
Much evidence of religious oppression and killing of non-believers of all flavours, but it doesn't equate that all believers want to commit acts of violence.
See how silly your claims are in reverse.

The historical record clearly demonstrates a direct link between Communism and Atheism. If you want to pretend otherwise, or remain in a state of denial, that's your prerogative I suppose.

originally posted by: rickynews

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: rickynews
I read it and saw how ridiculous your slur was when I replied previously.
You cannot equate lack of belief in any gods to automatic love of communism and tyranny, but then you probably know that and are just sharing your assertions to muddy the water when you have no real case against those who do not believe in gods.

*Edit*
Much evidence of religious oppression and killing of non-believers of all flavours, but it doesn't equate that all believers want to commit acts of violence.
See how silly your claims are in reverse.

The historical record clearly demonstrates a direct link between Communism and Atheism. If you want to pretend otherwise, or remain in a state of denial, that's your prerogative I suppose.

Ah, you may well prove that history demonstrates a link between communism and atheism, but a not link between atheism and communism!

a reply to: Daedalus

All theories begin with beliefs. ALL.

a reply to: rickynews
History does not demonstrate that lack of belief in gods is a prerequisite for support of a communist ideology.
But this is off-topic so I shall maybe create a new thread inviting people with no faith to share their opinions on communism and leave you in peace here with your almost child like logic.

originally posted by: bitsforbytes
a reply to: Daedalus

All theories begin with beliefs. ALL.

No. All beliefs begin with theories.

Freedom of religion has to cover freedom to have no religion and even the freedom to start your own faith (thinking of scientology etc here). What can't be legislated is tolerance and that's what's severely lacking.

And what's all this fear of communism?

I have followed and read all the replies in the thread since it began and have sat and thought about this particular issue a little more since my initial reply. I am still confused why this is such a big deal.

Prayer has been a part of our govt pretty much since it's inception. The argument that it is somehow representing a religion is in my opinion true. That religion being judeo-christian in origin. The overwhelming amount of people in our country from it's beginnings were of various sects believing in the same god. Theism or deism I would wager came from that exact same upbringing of belief in the same god as the puritans, quakers, mennonites or whatever. It was a melting pot of sorts, but from my reading that pot still had the same deity as the centerpiece. That didn't make the country a christian nation exactly but I don't believe a serious argument can be made as to the basis of a belief of the same deity wasn't present.

So with that in mind, does this tradition impose religion upon those who don't have those beliefs? Yes and no. Yes it does expose them directly to it but at the same time there is no requirement of participation.

So considering all of this I can see how having prayer can be argued as unconstitutional in respect to a particular religion simply because the history of it is pointing that it was and is. While I still personally have no issue with it I am curious as to the supporters view. If history shows that the prayer being supported is indeed of the judeo-christian and our laws do not permit the govt to support or put forward a particular religion would this not indeed be wrong to continue? Even if it is small in comparison of things our govt should be concerned with or even us for that matter, if it indeed does have origins of a particular religious strain then according to this countries founding statements would it not be in error?