U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheists Lose...Again.

a reply to: Secret009

I'm not sure what you're referring to. Congress opens the SESSION with a prayer. Not each day's business. At least not that I'm talking about. On the US House of Representatives site which I linked above, is the rest of the quote that I'd left off for space.

In addition to opening proceedings with prayer, the Chaplain provides pastoral counseling to the House community, coordinates the scheduling of guest chaplains, and arranges memorial services for the House and its staff. In the past, Chaplains have performed marriage and funeral ceremonies for House members.

Source

Another page, and again, among the US House's official material, is another statement prefacing the creation of the Prayer Caucus.

Throughout the more than 200-year history of our nation, prayer has played a vital role in strengthening the fabric of our society. The purposes of the Congressional Prayer Caucus are to 1) recognize the vital role that prayer by individuals of all faiths has played in uniting us as a people and in making us a more generous, more cooperative, and more forgiving people than we might otherwise have been; 2) collect, exchange, and disseminate information about prayer as a fundamental and enduring feature of American life; 3) use the legislative process – both through sponsorship of affirmative legislation and through opposition to detrimental legislation – to assist the nation and its people in continuing to draw upon and benefit from this essential source of our strength and well-being. Members of the Congressional Prayer Caucus also work together to preserve the presence of religion, faith, and morality in the marketplace of ideas.

Source

I think it's a very fair and perhaps necessary public debate about the extent to which we remain a nation with deep ties to Christian and Judea Christian values as well as traditions. The fact we are one, is historic and simply sits there in the record to see. I think it's a beneficial thing, so long as it never comes to define the laws and actions of those who write them in a way that forces others to follow specific scripture or any form of specific beliefs within one Faith.

Just my thoughts tho...and this topic has many very strongly held opinions, no question.

a reply to: Secret009


smoking... nothing...

little white pills.... no comment.

As for 330+/- days - I can bump the numbers up if you want. What sounds good - 340? 350?

Atheists and heaven

a reply to: rickynews
All atheists are communist?
It seems it is you who has an agenda.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

"I think it's a very fair and perhaps necessary public debate about the extent to which we remain a nation with deep ties to Christian and Judea Christian values as well as traditions. "

Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli
"... the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."
-John Adams, 1797


Debate over, you lose.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Please name the atheist holiday you are referring to / making up.

a reply to: Secret009

Well that is certainly one way of presenting an interpretation of historic events and ongoing tradition.

It's not my intent or desire to get into anything beyond simple debate, which seems a tough order to fill at the moment with this topic. So.. I suppose I'll let the sourced references I've contributed stand for my feelings on all this while I tend to other things... It's certainly never boring when religion is the topic.

a reply to: Willtell

He's going to be pissed when he find out what Jesus had to say about rich people.

originally posted by: Secret009
a reply to: Xcathdra

Please name the atheist holiday you are referring to / making up.

It was sarcasm...

Since atheists don't have "holidays", and since religions don't have holidays every single day, it was a sarcastic comment that was saying Atheists get their own "holidays (IE a normal day no religion claims as a holiday). When taken into account religious holidays can account for maybe 30-50 days out of the year.

meaning religious groups celebrate their religion far less frequently than atheists celebrate their non holidays.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000


"Well that is certainly one way of presenting an interpretation of historic events and ongoing tradition. "

You mean evidence?

"It's not my intent or desire to get into anything beyond simple debate, which seems a tough order to fill at the moment with this topic"

Typical mobius straw man (amalgamation of a straw man and circular reasoning fallacies). "Don't talk about the issue or who is right, we don't care about who is right because we know we are wrong. Talk about how both sides have a right to argue."


"It's certainly never boring when religion is the topic."

Trying to argue with people who believe an invisible sky wizard are on their side, and that his opinion is all that matters, is both utterly exhausting and boring as hell. I haven't heard a single original argument from any theist ever. It's all talking points without even an iota of critical reasoning.

a reply to: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Secret009
a reply to: Xcathdra

Please name the atheist holiday you are referring to / making up.

Since atheists don't have "holidays", and since religions don't have holidays every single day, it was a sarcastic comment that was saying Atheists get their own "holidays (IE a normal day no religion claims as a holiday). When taken into account religious holidays can account for maybe 30-50 days out of the year.

meaning religious groups celebrate their religion far less frequently than atheists celebrate their non holidays.

Say you had a twin brother. Your twin brother is your parent's favorite child. He gets one birthday present for the first 20 days of every month, every month, despite it not being his birthday. You receive no presents, even on your birthday. How would you react if someone told you "Relax dude, you get 10 days out of every month where your brother doesn't get a present, making it YOUR day." Then realize what a giant hypocrite you are.

Having read more deeply into this issue via reading the huffpo article

Supreme Court Upholds Prayer At Government Meetings

I have noted the following things ...

1] The council did try to be inclusive ...

From 1999 through 2007, and again from January 2009 through June 2010, every meeting was opened with a Christian-oriented invocation. In 2008, after residents Susan Galloway and Linda Stephens complained, four of 12 meetings were opened by non-Christians, including a Jewish layman, a Wiccan priestess and the chairman of the local Baha'i congregation. Galloway and Stephens are described in their court filings as a Jew and an atheist.

2] The court case evolved ...

But a three-judge panel of the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said that even with the high court's 1983 ruling, the practice of having one Christian prayer after another amounted to the town's endorsement of Christianity.

3] And it evolved again at the Supreme court ...

Kennedy, however, said judges should not be involved in evaluating the content of prayer because that could lead to legislatures requiring "chaplains to redact the religious content from their message in order to make it acceptable for the public sphere."

In other words ... Government and the Courts can not restrict the freedoms of religious expression, in this case christian faith, expressed by the majority of people in the Greece township at council meetings as long as they remain true to an inclusive principle [which the township did do and can do again] and as long there is no desire to proselytize or demean other faiths [which the appeals court said was not an issue according to the evidence].

It seems that the plaintiffs in this case had no real case and Atheist's don't get to make God mundane in the eyes of the law.

The Greece town council has made no mandates as to which religion gets to do the prayer service and is therefor not mandating any specific religion whilst still allowing freedom of religious expression as guaranteed under the 1st amendment of The Constitution of the USA.

First Amendment to the United States Constitution

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, as one of the ten amendments that constitute the Bill of Rights.

Hence this ruling is constitutional!

originally posted by: grainofsand
It still makes me chuckle to think that politicians/lawmakers of any flavour anywhere actually pray for guidance or whatever before a meeting these days. When did a prayer ever settle a budget deficit or assist in a planning decision? Lol ...kind of cute really, if it wasn't by people who are supposed to be looking for rational ways to govern a society.

It's called Reverence and it requires humility.

Some of us are still humble you know?

God Bless

a reply to: DietJoke

1) The majority of the prayers are still Christian
A) Wouldn't you rather NO ONE establish a religion in city hall than EVERYONE? This is crazy.
2) Kennedy basically just said that there was no way not to exclude prayer from government buildings because chaplains would still try to weasel their way in and destroy their own religion (by changing it) in the process.
A) I don't trust a single damned person who thinks that corporations are people or that money is speech, justice Kennedy included.
3) " in this case christian faith, expressed by the majority of people in the Greece township at council meetings as long as they remain true to an inclusive principle [which the township did do and can do again] and as long there is no desire to proselytize or demean other faiths "
A) There is no inclusive principle in mandatory prayers.
B) There is no inclusiveness in theocracy
C) This all ends the second a Muslim prayer is uttered on the floor of the house. Because, surprise, religious people are biased against other religions.
D) The separation of church and state forbids the kind of theocratic government you opine for.

4) Mathew 6:5-6
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you"
A) It becomes clearer and clearer that what Christian fundamentalists want is not religious freedom, it is religious dominance.

a reply to: TiedDestructor

"It's called Reverence and it requires humility.

Some of us are still humble you know? "


The irony is completely lost on you, isn't it?

May the flying spaghetti monster grant you a favorable crop yield this season.

originally posted by: Secret009
a reply to: TiedDestructor

"It's called Reverence and it requires humility.

Some of us are still humble you know? "


The irony is completely lost on you, isn't it?

May the flying spaghetti monster grant you a favorable crop yield this season.

I find very little "lost" on me.

After reading this entire thread I can say I am proud of many the heartfelt responses coming from both "sides".

I can also state not one of those responses came from you. You know why? You speak from emotion not practical thought. If you did you would convey yourself in more of an appropriate manner.

You know what though? I love ya and I'll pray that the "flying spaghetti monster" grant you serenity before you speak.

I'll need all the "faith" I can get.

a reply to: Secret009

In this case it does not revolve around twins from the same family. It revolves around a group of people who do not believe in God and a group of people who do believe in God.

Since Christmas is not celebrated 365 days out of the year I don't see why there is a problem with Atheists when it does come around.

Its like the issue in N. Korea with Kim Jong Un (im not comparing atheists to north Korean leader, its a clear example).

In North Korean there was talk of all males being required to have the exact same hair cut as the dear leader. Just because you don't like the haircut does not mean everyone else does not like it. Forcing the haircut is a problem.

If you don't believe in God that's fine, but it should not mean a crusade to force that "haircut" on everyone else.

As for the haircut - 30-50 days out of the year religious icons / non religious icons show up. Annoying? absolutely but that's me. The other days when no religion / holiday is celebrating I don't see any icons / images / what have you. All I see is the world around me, the sky, rain, light, dark, people - or in other words a world geared towards atheism.

So again, my point is Atheists get more time out of the year for their own beliefs. If you don't like religion, again that's fine, but don't get bent out of shape when everyone gets irritated when you try to force your position on those who don't share it.

I don't go around trying to force people to believe in God, and I will not accept a person coming at me to force me to not believe in God.

a reply to: TiedDestructor

"It's called Reverence and it requires humility.

Some of us are still humble you know? "


The irony is completely lost on you, isn't it?

May the flying spaghetti monster grant you a favorable crop yield this season.


"I find very little "lost" on me. "



LOL

a reply to: Xcathdra


"Since Christmas is not celebrated 365 days out of the year I don't see why there is a problem with Atheists when it does come around. "


Your twin brother only gets presents for 20 days of every month and you get none. Those 10 days are your days. I don't see why you have a problem with your brother getting 20 days of presents every month. Your just a jealous atheist.

a reply to: Secret009

Because your analogy fails by trying to use family members.

Unless you are suggesting Atheists are Catholics and Catholics are Atheists.

a reply to: Secret009

1] The constitution says nothing about a majority of prayers being Christian as affecting anything ... your premise is false as it doesn't address anything the constitution says and here is why ...

A] Saying a prayer does not constitute the establishment of any religion, as any religion can say a prayer in council chambers, and nor does it make council chambers a church, which would require consecrated holy ground and a cemetery, or its members a religious order, which would require all members to be a part of, and therefor I logically disagree with your false premise.

2] I agree that is what he basically said and therefor the onus is on the chaplains to remain true to their own faiths and that is not something the courts or government can mandate.

B] I agree with you ... I trust him as far as I can throw the planet! BUT that doesn't mean that the ruling isn't constitutional.

3] Maybe there isn't an inclusive principle to prayers if one is an Atheist ... but Atheist's can not deny the freedom of religious expression of the Christians and so they just simply have to wait for the prayer to be over before getting down to business as it is merely a temporary inconvenience and harms nobody and keeps a majority of people happy.

A] The prayers are not mandatory as who is forcing anybody to pray along with the prayer service!?

B] There is no Theocracy at play here and to imply that the Greece town council is such, when they have tried to be inclusive, is really dirty politics and the sign of a very weak argument!

C] Time will tell if a Muslim prayer brings out any hypocrisy in the Greece town council meetings.

D] LOL at your attempt to bait me!

4] I agree that Christians should follow this scripture!

A] You may be very correct on them wanting dominance ... But since I am not one of them I can't speak for them!