Authorities Threaten to 'Liquidate' Crimean Tatar Council

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: sosobad

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: DJW001
Why are people starring posts but not contributing to the thread? Certainly someone must approve of ethnic cleansing in Crimea?

Information is more important than the stars. I would prefer factual posting rather than a popularity contest.

It doesn't matter to you if people post facts that go against your narrative, you either ignore, distort or derail them.

incorrect -

I have to continually ask for people who make claims to post their sources so I can read it / research it.

I have used Russian / non west media sources.

I am not a fan of youtube posts that do not have any information attached placing whats seen into proper context. I also am not a fan of the fact that its possible to edit things out of those videos. Again, when something's removed it can alter the context of the video.

My biggest issues are the one line drive-byes where a significant claim is made yet the poster refuses to support it as well as useless posts whose sole intent seems to force information into a hole and bury it.

I would love to have an honest to God debate/discussion where both sides can get information / understanding of position. Instead we devolve into a round robin of insult / counter insult.

So let me ask. How can you and I fix that issue?

Had a long post written and it timed out twice, getting sick of it, I will answer later when the site is a bit more stable, don't worry I won't forget about you

a reply to: DJW001

They aren't saying they will "liquidate" the Tartars,just the council. In other words,until the Tartars stop with the hate speak, they can't be ruled by themselves. They aren't talking about killing a bunch of people.

a reply to: sosobad

I have found that when you post and submit and you get the timeout issue you can refresh the page and it will post your post.

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: zilebeliveunknown

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
I havent been able to follow the story, but ive read alot about neo nazis in ukraines new government or gangs of thugs causing trouble, is it true or propaganda, this is a serious question. Hope im not off topic.

It's true.
There are 9 NeoNazis holding top positions in Ukrainian parliament and government.
Check the list HERE

Off topic: back to ethnic cleansing in Crimea.

Can you show proof of this ethnic cleansing? Has the government gone in and killed or moved these people out of the country?

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: zilebeliveunknown

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
I havent been able to follow the story, but ive read alot about neo nazis in ukraines new government or gangs of thugs causing trouble, is it true or propaganda, this is a serious question. Hope im not off topic.

It's true.
There are 9 NeoNazis holding top positions in Ukrainian parliament and government.
Check the list HERE

Off topic: back to ethnic cleansing in Crimea.

Can you show proof of this ethnic cleansing? Has the government gone in and killed or moved these people out of the country?

notevenpast.org...

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: zilebeliveunknown

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
I havent been able to follow the story, but ive read alot about neo nazis in ukraines new government or gangs of thugs causing trouble, is it true or propaganda, this is a serious question. Hope im not off topic.

It's true.
There are 9 NeoNazis holding top positions in Ukrainian parliament and government.
Check the list HERE

Off topic: back to ethnic cleansing in Crimea.

Can you show proof of this ethnic cleansing? Has the government gone in and killed or moved these people out of the country?

notevenpast.org...

Did you even bother to read either the article you posted or what I posted? The article you posted has absolutely nothing to do with the government that is in place now. Thumbs down for such a sad attempt to back up your statement.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Why is Putin not a fascist for allowing this and does this now make Pro Russians supporters of the "Neo Nazi" " Fascists" as well?

Putin is a fascist.

fascism: a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

dictionary.reference.com...

The only difference is that Russia has become a fascist oligarchy - industry and commence is not run by the state, but by Putin's billionaire friends.

Ironically, his political rivals in Russia are ...... the communist party!

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: zilebeliveunknown

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
I havent been able to follow the story, but ive read alot about neo nazis in ukraines new government or gangs of thugs causing trouble, is it true or propaganda, this is a serious question. Hope im not off topic.

It's true.
There are 9 NeoNazis holding top positions in Ukrainian parliament and government.
Check the list HERE

Off topic: back to ethnic cleansing in Crimea.

Can you show proof of this ethnic cleansing? Has the government gone in and killed or moved these people out of the country?

notevenpast.org...

Did you even bother to read either the article you posted or what I posted? The article you posted has absolutely nothing to do with the government that is in place now. Thumbs down for such a sad attempt to back up your statement.

So? The government in Israel is not the same government that deported the Arabs half a century ago. Shame on you for not thinking through the issues.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: sosobad

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: DJW001
Why are people starring posts but not contributing to the thread? Certainly someone must approve of ethnic cleansing in Crimea?

Information is more important than the stars. I would prefer factual posting rather than a popularity contest.

It doesn't matter to you if people post facts that go against your narrative, you either ignore, distort or derail them.

incorrect -

I have to continually ask for people who make claims to post their sources so I can read it / research it.

I have used Russian / non west media sources.

I am not a fan of youtube posts that do not have any information attached placing whats seen into proper context. I also am not a fan of the fact that its possible to edit things out of those videos. Again, when something's removed it can alter the context of the video.

My biggest issues are the one line drive-byes where a significant claim is made yet the poster refuses to support it as well as useless posts whose sole intent seems to force information into a hole and bury it.

I would love to have an honest to God debate/discussion where both sides can get information / understanding of position. Instead we devolve into a round robin of insult / counter insult.

So let me ask. How can you and I fix that issue?

I'm back, told you I wouldn't forget about you! Sorry for the delay, life got in the way (Had to catch up on Game Of Thrones)

See for you to have a good debate you open to it

From your OP

Why no... they are just showers for disinfection.
What is it going to take for people to realize just how bad Putin is and what path he is leading people back down, not down but back down.

What Putin actually said from your article

In a televised appearance last month, Putin said he had signed a decree to rehabilitate the Crimean Tatars and other ethnic minorities on the peninsula — "all those who suffered during Stalin's repressions." The decree, published on the Kremlin website, also said it aimed to "restore historical justice and remove the consequences of the illegal deportation" and to "foster the creation and development of national-cultural autonomies."

Nowhere did he threaten to "liquidate" the Tartars or threaten ethnic cleansing, you are blaming the words and actions of this Natalya Poklonskaya person on Putin, that is not a way to open dialogue with other members by twisting the truth, only yesterday I seen you laying into another member for the same thing. You want good debate/discussion lead by example but if you are going to twist things be prepared to get flamed.

Thanks for the refresh tip, feel like a tit for not thinking of it.

(Not my original post but it is the gist)

a reply to: sosobad

"Rehabilitate?" Sounds like he's planning on herding them into "ethnic reservations," the way the US did with Native Americans.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: sosobad

"Rehabilitate?" Sounds like he's planning on herding them into "ethnic reservations," the way the US did with Native Americans.

Did you read any of what was said after that? Did you see rehabilitate and just focus on the word? Why does the word rehabilitate=ethnic cleansing? This is exactly the behavior Xcathdra was giving out about and the reason for my response.

a reply to: sosobad

Fair points that I can work on.

As for the thread title - its not mine. The title is directly from the op source.

The only times I mess with titles is if they are to big or vague. In the first post in those instances I make it a point to notify / explain the change. As for my reason in the other - information is hard enough to go thru trying to find some elements of truth.

I have seen a number of instances where people try to portray an opinion as fact by hiding it as if it is part of the source article.

Facts are fine...
Opinions are fine...
Merging them together in hopes one will hide the other is an issue...

Its like my profession - While at work I have enough worries about watching my / other officers backs. I should not have to also watch my back once back at the station.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: sosobad

Fair points that I can work on.

As for the thread title - its not mine. The title is directly from the op source.

The only times I mess with titles is if they are to big or vague. In the first post in those instances I make it a point to notify / explain the change. As for my reason in the other - information is hard enough to go thru trying to find some elements of truth.

I have seen a number of instances where people try to portray an opinion as fact by hiding it as if it is part of the source article.

Facts are fine...
Opinions are fine...
Merging them together in hopes one will hide the other is an issue...

Its like my profession - While at work I have enough worries about watching my / other officers backs. I should not have to also watch my back once back at the station.

Very true and I know why you were mad about the thread yesterday and rightly so, as for the subject at hand here I am all done, had my say and nothing more to add. I am sure we will be clashing again at some point on other threads (we seem to have very different opinions) and I, for one, am looking forward it.

a reply to: Xcathdra

I will only say this...

I am not as much "pro-Russia" in this as I am "Anti-US Involvement," but I think any American who stands with the Ukrainian ruling party in this conflict should probably take a step back and do some comparative analysis. (I'm pro-Israel, so don't hear what I'm not saying here) the United States government is walking a very dangerous line using this Tatar situation as any sort of buttress to support the Ukraine or go against Crimea's choice to rejoin Russia. There are more than a few similarities between what Crimea is doing here in regards to the Tatars and what Israel has done with respect to Palestine.

Furthermore, the promises made to the Tatars prior to the referendum weren't single sided... they were dependant on the Tatars accepting the results of the referendum and choosing to work with the post-Ukrainian occupied Crimean authority. Their leader chose not to do this, instead continuing his lambasting of the referendum and making statements of opposition to the new council. They seem to be looking for rewards for continued antagonistic behavior... which is a ridiculous expectation to have in the middle of an active conflict.

a reply to: sosobad

To add some context -

when the Crimea portion was still in the news government officials in Crimea notified the Tartar community that those who are "squatting" on land will need to be moved elsewhere. That was followed with somewhere else yet no actual estimation / location / geographic location was ever stated.

The refusal to allow the guy back into Crimea and meet with members of his community flies in the face of what Putin was talking about when it came to respecting minorities.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Let me clear up something on my end. If people would read my posts I have consistently argued that the government in Kiev is valid / lawful. My support of that government extends to the constitutional legalities and the actions of Russia / Pro Russian groups being in violation of the legalities.

I have stated that I have no issues with referendums for more autonomy or independence - so long as those actions are in line with he nations laws / international laws.

One of the main reasons I am so persistent is directly related to Russian actions. When this mess started Moscow started cranking out justifications all over the place, including invoking the Constitution of Ukraine. I do not accept an argument using Ukraine's constitution when it supports Russian action and then blatantly violating it when it does not support Russian action.

Russia has had many many chances to submit their evidence to the UN - from day one of their justifications they failed to do so. Russia actually supported a coup in Crimea where Russian soldiers / self defense forces arrested the elected PM and installed arbitrarily a replacement.

I am not a Nazi and I don't support their illegal actions.
I am not an ultra nationalist and don't support their illegal actions.

I have stated I agree with independent investigations in the shootings in Kiev as well as Odessa.

Its like the law enforcement threads - I post information that shows why something was done. Just because I post the info does not mean I support the action. You look at the picture, investigate both sides, collect evidence and then you apply common sense.

In this particular area Putin has walked off the deep end and his actions are going to have consequences. Those consequences are what scares the hell out of me based on what Putin has access to weapons wise. His actions / justifications, which are shared ny some of the members in this thread, are without merit.

He has had NATO countries on his borders for 20 plus years now and at no point has any aggressive action been taken towards Russia. Why? Because its a defensive alliance and only applies to Europe and north America. His actions imo are based on personal vanity and absolutely lack any type of credible facts to support the claims he, and some members in here, have made.

As for the Tartar situation that is Turkeys ball as its in their court.

If Putin is going to invade a nation based on protecting "Ethnic Russians" then Turkey absolutely has justification to invade Crimea to protect "Ethnic Tartars". Secondly, the Tartars were promised certain things as well and that was quickly moved off the table by Russia. So why cooperate and honor a promise when Russia broke it right out of the gate?

Appeasement does not work and never will work. What is occurring in Ukraine is a reenactment of the dawning days of WWII. Appeasement failed then and it will now.

So where does it leave us? The US can stand on principle for a change and say no or we can tuck the tail between the legs and go back to the dog house and hope whatever happens does not arrive on our door step. The government in Kiev is at least elected by the people. Crimea was an armed coup.

So whatever personal feelings I may have on their action, they are Ukrainian and I am American. Who am I to tell their government how to run their own affairs? They are using their laws, which is more than I can say for Russia.

Right now Ukraine's government is the lesser of 2 evils. They have the law in their favor. They have their nationality in their favor. If the people of Ukraine decide to make a change that's on them.

If Russia is not confronted, then Crimea and Ukraine are just the start. To be honest I would rather go to war and die if it ends the possibility of seeing a death count like WWII.

Hopefully that clears up some confusion people seem to be having with me and my position.

originally posted by: sosobad


Very true and I know why you were mad about the thread yesterday and rightly so, as for the subject at hand here I am all done, had my say and nothing more to add. I am sure we will be clashing again at some point on other threads (we seem to have very different opinions) and I, for one, am looking forward it.

For what it is worth im all for clashing... I usually end up walking away a little bit more knowledgeable than when I started.

Thanks for taking the time to respond as I do appreciate it.

See you in the forums.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
So where does it leave us? The US can stand on principle for a change and say no or we can tuck the tail between the legs and go back to the dog house and hope whatever happens does not arrive on our door step. The government in Kiev is at least elected by the people. Crimea was an armed coup.

An armed coup led by armed Crimeans... There's always a 3rd option and, as usual, it is the best option: The US can keep it's goddamned nose out of other countries' business for a change. This would not look like a tucking of the tail if it wasn't for the loudmouthed gum flapping and ridiculous, toothless threats spewing from DC towards Russia as this happened. Seriously DC, shut the hell up and butt out.

So whatever personal feelings I may have on their action, they are Ukrainian and I am American. Who am I to tell their government how to run their own affairs? They are using their laws, which is more than I can say for Russia.

I agree... the Crimeans are running in the course they wish to run, no business of yours, mine, or anyone else in the US.

Right now Ukraine's government is the lesser of 2 evils. They have the law in their favor. They have their nationality in their favor. If the people of Ukraine decide to make a change that's on them.

I fail to see how socialist nationals can constitute the lesser of evils. We have history to show us what happened the last time a socialist national party came to power over a Bolshevik inspired political movement and the results weren't pretty... but some folks simply don't learn from history so...

If Russia is not confronted, then Crimea and Ukraine are just the start. To be honest I would rather go to war and die if it ends the possibility of seeing a death count like WWII.

I'd rather stay the hell out of it, as it is absolutely none of our business at this time. Pressure from the west WILL escalate this because that's what the west does. They escalate land disputes into regional wars for profit and power redistribution, all while their citizens sit around waving little flags and chanting the initials of their country like fans at a football game. It would be ridiculously comical if it wasn't for the fact that the United States is the chief offender and provider of the mindless citizenry. Just once it would be enjoyable to sit on the sidelines and chuckle at everybody else's Animal Farm act instead of facepalming as the whole damn neighborhood bleats to the beat of the DC drumline.

originally posted by: sosobad

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: sosobad

"Rehabilitate?" Sounds like he's planning on herding them into "ethnic reservations," the way the US did with Native Americans.

Did you read any of what was said after that? Did you see rehabilitate and just focus on the word? Why does the word rehabilitate=ethnic cleansing? This is exactly the behavior Xcathdra was giving out about and the reason for my response.

That's not the phrase that set alarm bells off. It was this one:

"foster the creation and development of national-cultural autonomies."

Did you know that the Nazis had plans to create anthropological preserves so that people could see "primitive peoples" in their natural habitats?

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

An armed coup led by armed Crimeans... There's always a 3rd option and, as usual, it is the best option: The US can keep it's goddamned nose out of other countries' business for a change. This would not look like a tucking of the tail if it wasn't for the loudmouthed gum flapping and ridiculous, toothless threats spewing from DC towards Russia as this happened. Seriously DC, shut the hell up and butt out.

I'm sorry have you met our Commander in chief? The only thing allowing him to stand upright is the starch in his shirt.
Secondly, an armed coup occurred in Crimea. An armed coup did NOT occur in Kiev. I fail to understand how people don't see that, unless they are willingly ignoring it.

We were asked for assistance by the legitimate government of Ukraine. Our allies were consulted and so far its a untied front with sanctions as the option.

I reject the premise that the US should keeps its nose out when we are asked in. I also note you don't hold that same view, or at least you didn't state it, when it comes to Russia. Appeasement does not work, it has never worked, and it will never work. All it does is open the door wider, allowing more crap to flow through it faster and faster.

I have seen people take the US to task for its actions, and I agreed with a lot of those who did take the US to task. I reject the premise of a double standard when it comes to Russia doing the very thing the US was bitched at for.

2 wrongs don't make it right and hypocrisy adds insult to injury.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
I agree... the Crimeans are running in the course they wish to run, no business of yours, mine, or anyone else in the US.

hence my position about the Ukraine constitution and my view towards the government in Kiev. However a nation has a right to ask for assistance with its being threatened from an outside entity, just as Syria did with Russia when a no fly zone was being discussed by the west.

If Russia can respond to and assist Syria because they, the recognized Assad government, asked for it, then the same applies to the recognized government in Ukraine.

Telling a country to piss off and but out while another nation threatens the one asking for help is hypocrisy at its best. Russia has no business telling the US/"near abroad neighbors" who they can and cannot work with, just as the US has no say for the same with regards to Russia and neither country has any jurisdiction to make foreign policy decisions of a 3rd party nation while discussing them as if they are not even in the room.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
I fail to see how socialist nationals can constitute the lesser of evils. We have history to show us what happened the last time a socialist national party came to power over a Bolshevik inspired political movement and the results weren't pretty... but some folks simply don't learn from history so...

I fail to understand how you and a lot of others can continually state the government of Ukraine are all nationalist socialists.

Please, by all means, provide me with a list of the acting government in addition to the members of Parliament. If you cannot do that, then may I respectfully suggest you stop making that argument as it undermines your position.

Stalin was not a socialist and a large junk of the Russian population were executed.

Don't lecture me on history repeating itself and I say that based on your comments about nationalist Socialists and its outcome. In case you forgot Russia/Soviet Union was allied with Nazi Germany for a good chunk of that time period. The actions Putin has taken are from the Nazi playbook.

Propaganda to control the people.
Trumped charges to remove opponents / non supporters.
Nationalization of the media services.
Mass roundups.
mass executions.
Targeted mass executions of teachers / government officials / scientists.... About 27k murdered by Russia in Poland during WWII.

and lets not forget that Constitution right out of animal farm - Everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others.

Lets put this into perspective -
Kiev Government -
Parliament removed the president by impeachment per the Constitution.
Parliament scheduled Presidential elections per the Constitution.
Parliament appointed acting ministers as transition per the Constitution.

The only people armed were Yanukovych's security forces and elements who identities and affiliations cant be determined. At no point did those armed people storm Parliament.


Crimea Government -
Stormed the government building wearing masks, non insignia uniforms and weapons.
The Prime Minister was forcibly/illegally removed per the Ukraine AND Crimean Constitution.
A new Prime minister was arbitrarily appointed without elections, a violation of Ukraine / Crimea Constitution.
These actions were assisted directly by Russian military forces, which is in fact an armed invasion of Ukraine.
A referendum was held illegally (violates both constitution).
The outcome, per the UNHCR and now Putin's own council, was illegal and was rigged.

Now - lets compare.
The people in Ukraine are holding lawful elections.
The people in Ukraine have not leveled cities trying to go after anti Kiev forces.
They have posted their actions in advance / announced when they occur.
They have warned civilians when they are operating to keep them out of harms way.
They have taken steps to ensure election monitors are on the ground.

The people in Crimea got screwed out of an election by the removal of their lawful Prime Minister.
They got screwed a second time when no vote was held to replace the prime minister.
They were forces to participate in a rigged election.
The outcomes of that election were chosen by Moscow.
Pro Kiev people were assaulted / intimidated / threatened (again documented by the UNHCR report for April).

We now have Russia, again, invading other parts of Ukraine while at the same time demanding the Presidential election be canceled.

So yes, the government in Kiev, who were in fact elected by the Ukrainian people, are the lesser of the 2 evils. The government in Crimea was not elected by the Crimean people yet those politicians are speaking for all Crimean's.


By the way, going back to history, Russia's actions were the very same the Nazis used up to their invasion of Poland.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
I'd rather stay the hell out of it, as it is absolutely none of our business at this time.

Words that were uttered in the early / mid 1930's.

Ran out of room - see next post