Banned from Blackjack in Casinos for Card Counting - Should Casinos Have That Right?

I fully agree with the OP.

I find it hard to believe that people are trying to justify these shennanigans, captitalism!

It's like you winning the lottery and the lotto bosses deciding that you don't get the money, becausse you use some sort of mathematical logic or something - I don't know if such logic exists and can be employed to win the lottery, I don't think there is...but it's still a sound analogy.

It's like the bookie denying you the chance to bet on a horse that runs well on dry, firm ground because conditions are optimum for that horse to perform well and potentially win. they might adjust the odds a little but they still take bets on it.

The only "cheaters" here are the casion, who...as someone else pointed out, don't apply such bad sportsmanship to the losers. I could say the same for them, if they can't handle the fact that the logic of the game doesn't always work out in their faveur then perhaps they shouldn't be operating a casino...poor show.

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: RossWellOldMexico

It was a coincidence you "lost your ass". The percentages caught up to you. I know this because I've been a dealer in the Gaming Industry for over 15 years.

How surprising then when I left the new dealer and went back to the old one I resumed winning. Until they invited me to stop playing.

Did you sit at the same spot on the table when the regular dealer got back? If not, you benefited from playing in a "hot spot" on the table. "Hot spots" reside on all gaming tables and are never at the same place too long. Occupation of the table by the amount of players also matter when it comes to a certain player going on a run. I've seen it all before.

originally posted by: The Vagabond
a reply to: RossWellOldMexico

I am aware of the regular rotation of dealers, but have you never seen them tag out a losing dealer after just a few minutes, or left a tough new dealer's table only to have them brought to the next table you sit down at almost immediately?

Pure coincidence, Vagabond. You don't know what goes on behind the pits. You could only speculate. That dealer could be called into the shift managers office on procedure compliances or work related issues.

At my place of work, we have disposed of burning cards at the entry of new dealers, save for the beginning of the shoe, rid the table of a player spot(it's 6 now, use to be 7 spots before) and have used automated shufflers. These changes are increased dealer hand rate. The days of shills and house poaching are over as regulated by the government legislation. Casinos in the province of Ontario are legislated by a provincial agency. If one hint of irregularities occur, the province can revoke the casino's operating licenses anytime.

Interestingly, according to this, it is illegal to ban card counters in Atlantic City, due to state control of gambling:

en.wikipedia.org...

Fascinating, especially the bit about card counting computers. I wonder how Google Glass is going to work out at a roulette or Blackjack table. Eventually someone is going to write a card counting app

a reply to: stormcell

Roulette is already doable. Some smart guys worked out a primitive calculator for it where you'd click when they spun and click when they dropped the ball and it would estimate what quarter of the wheel you should expect it to land on, and that was before cell phones, i think even before PCs. I'm sure there's somebody out there with an ap for it on his phone now.

a reply to: RossWellOldMexico

Oh you're in Canada. No wonder everyone is behaving. Meanwhile my observations in the Indian casinos of California are highly suspicious, and the dealer I used to play with when I was in the Marines who couldn't be trusted to touch the deck whatsoever liked to brag about the crappy places he'd worked and the losers he'd put one over on.

a reply to: JiggyPotamus

See you are wrong in the case of card counters and the other techniques people can use I have showed the doubling technique! It is not cheating so in your mind it must be allowed right? But it GUARATEES you win 100%! Please tell me how on earth that can be allowed??? Card counters (real ones) can guarantee themselves the win! It can't be allowed, it is common sense, there is no logical debate for allowing it...

If you do not card count and don't do the doubling technique or all the other little loopholes then yes you are right, casino games are weighed in the casinos favour! Course it is for god sake! How is this a revelation to anyone? They do it to make money!!! Lol... It is as stupid as saying... "Shops sell things for more money than they pay for it! What a scam!" Lol...

It's crazy to me...

a reply to: samerulesapply

Hahahah So wait... People can't use maths to win the lottery yet you say this is the same as card counting... Okay then...

There is no "shenanigans", it's called reason and logic... So someone please bloody answer this to see if we can get some sense here...

You open a casino with blackjack and roulette, card counters from miles around come by and people are using the doubling technique on roulette... Soon everyone catches on and they're all at it... You're hemoraging money, what do you do? You just continue? But then you go out of business so...

Now I do get the oh it's evil capitalism... But really it is just common sense! There is no way you could let it continue! There is no way you can allow the doubling technique as it guarantees the casino loses! Lol...

It would be like a shop that has to sell things at a loss! Lmao wtf???

en.m.wikipedia.org...

If you go to expected profit with 6 decks the counter has a 1% advantage rather than the 0.5% house edge... So yeah please tell me how the house can give away the edge and survive? What gambling establishment gives YOU the edge? Please show me so that I can go and become rich using my amazing skillz lmao.

m.theatlantic.com...

See what a real card counter can do!!!!

1 night 1 card counter! Wipes out all the profits for the month! What if he plays everynight then? Should be cool yeah? No worries... Lol

EDIT: In atlantic city no less lmao...


Hmmm says he didn't use card counting to win.... I call non-sense on that one, it ie statistically impossible lmao


EDIT: It even goes on about how he used maths and stuff lmao... This guy is a card counter who hid it well, there is no other logical explanation...

But lets say for a minute, say this guy is in your casino and he's there everynight bleeding you dry, what do you do? Ahh well go out of business I guess... Then he goes to the next... And the next... But see the guy is smart cos he doesn't keep going back to the same one lol He does the rounds raking it from all of them... I mean great for him but not so great for casino fans if they all get shut down huh?

www.homepokergames.com...

Here is an interesting look at card counting... Basically the casinos are fighting it on many fronts. They HAVE to, I guess it is all part of the game... Card counters adapt, casinos adapt... If they don't they go bust... It's common sense...

a reply to: The Vagabond
Second Dealing is what many of the Native American casinos are doing here in Washington. Whereas they are switching cards during the deal either by taking an extra out during the deal or reading a reflection of the corners off the glossy white shoes (or some other device) - giving them the option of dealing that or skipping a card and pulling the next one.

The corners of the aces and faces that light up when the dealer checks for a blackjack essentially means the face cards are marked with black at the corners whereas the small cards are painted white. Thus all one (with criminal intent) has to do is practice reading the difference (black or white) in reflections off the shoe and then fanning the cards enough so that it is easy to grab the second card. Lift, view then pull the one you want to deal.

I noticed that sometimes the cards snap audibly louder coming out of the shoe which leads me to believe it is an artifact of the second deal out of the shoe. Quieter is the first card being dealt, a louder snap would mean skipping or the switch because it requires more pressure to take a second card thus the rise of volume in the audible snap.

a reply to: Meee32

I never said they were the same, they couldn't possibly be, naturally - as one doesn't exist.

I suppose the point I'm ultimately trying to make is that the game has flaws, if the game is flawed why even bother playing at all?

If some mathematical system were to be developed that could win you the lottery I doubt it would continue to exist. even if you won legitimately you'd be lucky to get a payout - everyone'd be a cheat, so people can't exploit the system but the system can exploit the people. The whole point of playing the game is you have the opportunity to win - blackjack is exploitable, if they lock up when someone does well then why even bother with it?

I apologise that you took me so literally, and that my comments forced you to be rude in your response.

To add - as for reason and logic, that's a rather double-edged sword in this regard....isn't reason and logic exactly what is being applied by the counter?

Again...amazing double standards - the truth is it's a sordid business, it sells lies to peeople, and quite blatantly. Luring people in with promises of the chance to win bug...then shutting them down when they get anywhere near close to it.

There's absolutely nothing unethical about that. The blackjack system works in their favour when they're exploiting the naive en masse, but the few who master the game are cast out. It's like the grown up equivalent of not letting someone into your gang hut because they did better than you at school. Petty.

I'm glad it's not something that interests me.

originally posted by: The Vagabond
a reply to: RossWellOldMexico

Oh you're in Canada. No wonder everyone is behaving. Meanwhile my observations in the Indian casinos of California are highly suspicious, and the dealer I used to play with when I was in the Marines who couldn't be trusted to touch the deck whatsoever liked to brag about the crappy places he'd worked and the losers he'd put one over on.

Yes. I'm in Canada. What do you mean by everyone is behaving? Don't mistake consideration and showing respect to a fellow person as an odd behavior. It's just the way things are here in Canada, Vagabond.

The dealer that you previously dealt with has got to disconnect from his job. One can be boastful after being in the business for some many years. I can be guilty of it sometimes, but I try not to talk shop with other dealers inside and outside of work. Your dealer friend has to realize that he/she are working for tips and try to enhance the player's gaming experience.

Working in casinos can be a mental grind, sometimes you get the feeling you aren't appreciated by management. I get that idea from my place of work. I learn to accept it and deal on. When I started in this business, it was a job, but it turned into a career. The Gaming industry has evolved from selling dreams to servicing customers, even Las Vegas has caught up to that notion. I work in a Indian casino, but the province of Ontario still regulates gaming laws and procedures on Indian reserves. It is not as independent as the tribal casinos in the U.S.

It was a pleasure to chat with you. Let's do it again on another topic sometime. You have a good day, Vegabond.

originally posted by: Meee32
a reply to: UngaBungga

So then you are saying they should remove blackjack and roulette, infact all card games most likely. If you had your way then that is what would happen... What about the people that like these games and are happy with the terms? They don't get a choice? Right now the choice is there to not play those games... So what is the problem?

Whow...whow now. I never said anything like that and you're putting words in my mouth. What I'm saying is...
if a casino wants to do business it has to take the good with the bad. If you're winning and not cheating, they shouldn't have the right to refuse service. The odds are already heavily tipped in the casino's favor and it shows--they make billions and billions in profit. But to kick someone out of the casino because they are winning and NOT cheating should be illegal. How greedy can they get? What kind of message are they sending? Come to our casino and spend your money...you are welcome with open arms...unless you have the misfortune of being fortunate...if you win in our casino...you'll be out on your ear. It really makes me wonder if their games are really on the "up and up".
If you're winning....you must be cheating because all the games are "rigged".

[quote

The reason casinos can kick you out is because they're private establishments. They can refuse service to anyone.

They cannot refuse service to anyone. They cannot refuse service based on skin color or creed. So why are they allowed to refuse service to someone that's winning--If you're "behaving" yourself-- being a perfect gentleman or lady?
Unfortunately, we will never know if Ben was putting down cheesy 5 dollar bets, mostly, then "all of a sudden" throw down a hefty 500 or 1000 dollar bet (all the high stakes tables I've seen have a lot higher minimum bet). But I'm pretty sure if he was a "nobody", he would have been banned from the entire casino and not just from Blackjack.

originally posted by: benrl
Just like ATS can say somethings are not allowed here,

So too can the casino.


Play their game, you follow their rules, period.

Not quite the same. Casinos are regulated by the state, which means, well it used to mean, the People. They can't make up their own rules. They have laws they too must follow.

Here on ATS it's their ball and they can do with it what they choose.

a reply to: UngaBungga

A casino would never ban someone from games they have an edge in. The only time a card counter gets banned from the casino is if he makes a big scene about it. Like I stated in a previous post, they will just kindly ask the player to take his winnings and play another game.

a reply to: Meee32

The 'doubling' method is not a 100% guaranteed method, unless you have substantially more amount of cash than the casino.