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Banned from Blackjack in Casinos for Card Counting - Should Casinos Have That Right?

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posted on May, 6 2014 @ 04:12 AM
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a reply to: The VagabondThey switch dealers because they need their breaks just like any other employees in the workforce. Dealers are people, not machines.




posted on May, 6 2014 @ 04:15 AM
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a reply to: RossWellOldMexico

OTOH, I have had dealers ask me not to follow them when they come back from break, if I'm pasting their butts. I have been on a roll and had the pit boss swap dealers, and then magically I lose my ass. So I wait for the first guy to come back to another table and go there. They generally ask me to quit playing at that point, reinforcing my possibly groundless belief that the 'new' dealer is there to break up the flow.

eta: or possibly at that point they bring in a card mechanic, who knows? In Vicksburg, they won't let me play roulette already. If you're too "lucky", they always ban you unless you're a whale.
edit on 6-5-2014 by Bedlam because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2014 @ 04:42 AM
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originally posted by: DarksideOz

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: Jennyfrenzy
The guy is a freakin millionaire yet chooses to cheat on card games.

How is counting cards 'cheating'?? Isn't it just playing a game well?
Isn't that the point of the game?


Card counting is not cheating. And I hope "card counters" continue to take as much money from the Casino's as possible, before being asked to leave of course


If these Casino's are so worried about losing to "card counters", then why do they keep rolling out the red carpet for them and giving them the 5-star treatment to lure them to their Casino. Why, because they are hoping they will slip up and give the money back to that Casino. But if they don't slip up, the red carpet gets rolled up and they are asked to leave.

And with the amount of drug money that Casino's willingly launder each year, I wouldn't be too worried about card counters taking their profits. While the drug money keeps going through the casino's, then their profits will always be there, regardless of any loses along the way. I'm still yet to hear of a card counter sending a Casino broke, have you ?
Card counting IS cheating. If the "card counters" takes as much money they can from the Casinos as possible, casinos employees lose their jobs, homes and pensions. Unemployment rate raises and effect the economy with welfare and unemployment insurance.

Drug money is everywhere. banks and brokerage firms launder money also. But casinos prevent large transactions over $10,000 to be converted unless by approval from supervisors and managers. Then the casino notifies the government revenue agency of the particulars of the transaction that occurred. "Follow the money" as Deepthroat said in "All The President's Men".



posted on May, 6 2014 @ 04:50 AM
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The thing is though, if it were allowed the casino would go out of business and then there would be no casino... There is another technique you can do that guarantees you win on roulette... Bet on red, lose, bet on red again but double your bet, repeat... as long as you have enough funds you can't lose! It's impossible to lose!

So say they allowed it, how long before everyone knows? Lmao... They CAN'T allow it, simple as that...

Lot's of people like going to casinos, no-one is forced there.



posted on May, 6 2014 @ 05:04 AM
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originally posted by: Bedlam
a reply to: RossWellOldMexico

OTOH, I have had dealers ask me not to follow them when they come back from break, if I'm pasting their butts. I have been on a roll and had the pit boss swap dealers, and then magically I lose my ass. So I wait for the first guy to come back to another table and go there. They generally ask me to quit playing at that point, reinforcing my possibly groundless belief that the 'new' dealer is there to break up the flow.

eta: or possibly at that point they bring in a card mechanic, who knows? In Vicksburg, they won't let me play roulette already. If you're too "lucky", they always ban you unless you're a whale.
Dealers are told to keep players at a distance. They are told people change when it comes to money. Or if they are asked to be in a scam by players.

The pit boss oversees the gaming floor, he/she manages dealers shifts, type of game skill the dealer has, order credit and fills for the bankroll, track early out for employees/dealers. More likely, that pit boss needed that particular dealer to deal at another game to relieve a dealer or give the dealer the opportunity to go home early. All dealers must be proficient in other games like Craps, Roulette, Blackjack, etc. It was a coincidence you "lost your ass". The percentages caught up to you. I know this because I've been a dealer in the Gaming Industry for over 15 years.



posted on May, 6 2014 @ 05:28 AM
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originally posted by: RossWellOldMexico

It was a coincidence you "lost your ass". The percentages caught up to you. I know this because I've been a dealer in the Gaming Industry for over 15 years.


How surprising then when I left the new dealer and went back to the old one I resumed winning. Until they invited me to stop playing.



posted on May, 6 2014 @ 09:16 AM
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First of all, I'm shocked that Ben Affleck is smart enough to count cards!


Casinos only do this to keep people from winning. They're being sore losers.
I was invited to a card game years ago by a friend of mine. His uncle was visiting. His uncle is considered a high roller in Vegas. After playing cards, drinking and smoking for 3 days straight, he invited me to go to Vegas with him because he was fascinated with how I play. I said No because they would just throw us out lol(I had to work). He told me that it happens regularly, -that he was under scrutiny many times for beating the house. A couple casinos went as far and banned him, he said. Other casinos set him up pretty nicely for free.



posted on May, 6 2014 @ 09:26 AM
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First of all, can they even prove someone is counting cards? I guess if you continually win you're counting cards? Sounds like BS to me but I don't gamble outside of friendly, low-stakes poker.

Rules are rules and casinos have theirs. To each his own I guess...if someone gets enjoyment from losing money playing games designed to beat you who am I to judge them?



posted on May, 6 2014 @ 09:44 AM
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a reply to: Fylgje

Well of course! Lol... Casinos are there to make money... If they didn't make money they wouldn't be there... Everyone knows this, they go for the atmosphere and the thrill.

If you could buck the system by card counting or the doubling one I mentioned then there would be no system to buck! So then you still can't count cards and double up lol... So I mean it just has to be this way. There is nothing wrong with it in my opinion, just one of the rules of the game and a very sensible one.



posted on May, 6 2014 @ 10:44 AM
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a reply to: RossWellOldMexico

I am aware of the regular rotation of dealers, but have you never seen them tag out a losing dealer after just a few minutes, or left a tough new dealer's table only to have them brought to the next table you sit down at almost immediately?



posted on May, 6 2014 @ 11:01 AM
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a reply to: FlyersFan

Alas smart people are not a protected class in Nevada.



posted on May, 6 2014 @ 11:05 AM
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They don't force you to use their casinos. They own the property, they make the rules. You may not like it, but it is their right to refuse anyone for doing anything.



posted on May, 6 2014 @ 11:08 AM
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a reply to: FlyersFan

Card counting issue is hard-to-tell as I do not have enough knowledge on how exactly card-counting works, as well never played in casinos, so don´t know the official rules of any gambling games, except Hold´em

. Using a good mind and knowledge of statistics to improve the odds should not be banned though, as that is just skills. In a same way, an opposite football player should not be banned from playing because he is good at it and thus can affect your odds of winning... Rather change the mixing rules than ban that one...


I do believe though, casinos should be legally obliged to deal with the gambling addicts.

Being addicted to anything affects the decision processes in human mind and rational thinking. Casino addiction is a very serious problem, ruining too many lives in every nation, where casinos exist.

Due to the effects of addition on thinking processes, I do believe there should be some mechanism, which would prevent people from going to extreme debt or losing everything they have due to the addiction.

Bars throw out/do not serve people who seem too drunk, most shops (at least here) do not sell alcohol to people who are clearly drunk. When a person is clearly not able to go home, most bars are also obliged to ensure them getting where they need to get (calling police or getting a taxi). That rule came last year, after one nightclub threw out a girl during winter because she was too drunk and she just froze to death. Something similar should be done in the casino industry. Taking advantage of someone who can clearly not think rationally (due to addiction or using some substance) should not be legal.


edit on 6-5-2014 by Cabin because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2014 @ 11:08 AM
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originally posted by: jrod
What generally happens to someone who is suspected of counting cards is they are told to cash out, congratulations, and are kindly asked to not play at their blackjack tables again. There is actually a large database of known card counters, and if one is spotted at the blackjack tables the bosses will ask them to play another game.

It is the casino's right to ban counters from the blackjack tables. Even the weakest games, slot machines at a casino have much better odds than any lottery the state's offer.


I think of all the player v. house games, blackjack offers the best odds, no? There are published guidelines to playing blackjack to give you the best odds, but the odds are always in the casino's favor. In my opinion, card counting should be allowed. If the state is allowing a "business" to set up shop that clearly exploits its customers, then the customers should be given the opportunity to exploit them in return if they have the mental acuity (not through outright cheating, however).

I have played blackjack twice - once in AC and once in Vegas. Each time I have quadrupled my initial buy-in, which wasn't a lot, unfortunately. I think I may have an innate ability to count cards.

Having said that, both times were very stressful. I do not find gambling to be fun or relaxing, so I just don't do it. I have walked through a lot of casinos in LV on my way to somewhere else and have never felt an urge to even drop a quarter into a slot machine.


edit on 6-5-2014 by ScientiaFortisDefendit because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2014 @ 11:54 AM
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a reply to: Cabin

Counting cards is basically keeping track of the cards dealt so you can work out probability... The experts at it would wipe a casino out lol... If it were allowed multiple card counters would flock to the casino and bleed it dry on no time! They would just have to remove blackjack altogether.

How about the doubling up technique, where I bet 10 on red, if I lose I place 20 on red the next go, if I lose again I put 40 on the next go and so on untill I win... It is statistically impossible for me to lose! But hey I'm just using statistics and maths to aid me lol...

People like playing these games for better or worse, for them to be viable the loopholes have to be closed... There is only 2 choices, have the games as they are or don't have them at all. I'm guessing you wouldn't care if they went, I wouldn't either. But lots of people would because they enjoy it...



posted on May, 6 2014 @ 12:33 PM
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"just prior to starting production in the highly-anticipated “Batman vs. Superman” blockbuster "


This is the real crime here, amirite? LOL

Seriously I like Ben Affleck, he's was great in Argo. He was also good in The Town, GWH, or any other movie where he's playing a Boston street tough. But Batman! I don't know. I think Christian Bale set the bar pretty high, even a decent performance is gonna look bad.

But as far as the point of the thread goes. Casinos have the right to deny service to anyone. Play poker. Or if you're no good at that, play Craps, best player odds in the Casino.



posted on May, 6 2014 @ 03:15 PM
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a reply to: FlyersFan

I had this discussion with my mother just the other day. My position is that the casino's shouldn't be able to deny someone from gambling just because they are winning. If a person has the mental capacity to remember what cards have been played when the dealers is using 6 decks...that's not cheating! Imagine what the casino's would say if the government carefully watched everyone that was gambling and told the ones that were loosing (which would be most of them) to stop gambling. They would all be "up in arms" if they did. The casino's should be forced to take the good with the bad if they run casino's. If you're winning without cheating, they shouldn't be allowed to deny service. That's a form of discrimination, it is.


edit on 6-5-2014 by UngaBungga because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2014 @ 03:28 PM
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originally posted by: Nola213

But as far as the point of the thread goes. Casinos have the right to deny service to anyone. Play poker. Or if you're no good at that, play Craps, best player odds in the Casino.



They don't have the right to deny service to anyone. They cannot deny service because of skin color or creed. To deny someone service simply because they're winning too much is discrimination and should be made illegal.



posted on May, 6 2014 @ 03:39 PM
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a reply to: UngaBungga

So then you are saying they should remove blackjack and roulette, infact all card games most likely. If you had your way then that is what would happen... What about the people that like these games and are happy with the terms? They don't get a choice? Right now the choice is there to not play those games... So what is the problem?



posted on May, 6 2014 @ 05:13 PM
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Unfortunately they can do this, and I suppose there is nothing wrong with it. Obviously there is something wrong with it from the casino's point of view, and if they could prosecute they definitely would...But they can only ask you to leave considering you have done nothing illegal. Basically all casino games have odds that favor the casino. If someone plays long enough, they are going to lose. Period.

People win simply by getting "lucky" in most casino games, aside from poker or other strategy games against other players...Blackjack also favors the casino, even if you follow those simple strategies that exist for what to do in certain situations. Card counting basically works in blackjack because every card that comes up affects what cards can potentially come up later in the game. It has a memory, as it were.

Even using a 6 deck shoe a person can have the odds slightly in their favor, and the thing with counting is that you do not need to play for a long period of time to have those odds work in your favor. Well it depends on how you do it. The MIT team did have someone playing the odds as it were, placing the minimum bet and keeping the count. So even though they would lose money, it was trifling in comparison to what they won.

One must understand that high cards favor the player while low cards favor the house. So the more high cards in the deck, the better the players odds of winning. So if you can have someone come up and place a big bet only when the deck has turned favorable, your chances of winning dramatically increase. Once the odds have returned to normal, or less, then you stop placing the big bets. Simple really.

A single card counter, and the ones who get caught easily, do it this way: they keep count themselves, and they place the minimum bet most of the time. However, when the count is in their favor, they dramatically increase their bets. This is probably what Afleck was doing and how he was caught so easily. It is easy to notice a guy betting $5 on every hand, who suddenly raises their bet to $500 per hand. Looks fishy. Easy to spot. The MIT method was ingenious, and would still work today if it were not for the advent of facial recognition software, and more sophisticated methods, such as not allowing people to just walk up and place big bets on the table without reshuffling the deck.

All the casinos have to do to beat the counters is constantly reshuffle. If you don't give the odds long enough to play out and run favorably, a high count I mean, it cannot be worked profitably. Counting cards is easy to understand. However quickly tabulating the values of positve and negative one, and recalculating the overall count, is a bit more difficult. And what is also difficult is that you have to know about how many cards are left in the shoe. You have to be okay at math since you have to calculate a formula in your head based on the count and the cards left, which will tell you what you should bet. It is strictly playing the math.

The reason casinos can kick you out is because they're private establishments. They can refuse service to anyone. Back in the old days things weren't so nice. People got killed for card counting, and literally I mean murdered. Buried in the desert. A byproduct of a mafia run institution I suppose. Anyway, the only way you can be charged for cheating is manipulating something, or using a device or machine, such as a computer.

I think the most sophisticated cheat ever was the guy who made the roulette computer. THAT was freaking amazing, especially considering the time when he did it.




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