Banned from Blackjack in Casinos for Card Counting - Should Casinos Have That Right?

a reply to: VictorVonDoom

Or you could come to california, where craps is played with cards. Since the cards are only A-6 it is easier to count, the downside is that you have to keep track of two different shoes, which I can't do for very long without using my chips as an abacus.

I started applying the +/- system I'd heard about on breaking vegas, subtracting one if for A-2, zero for 3-4, adding one for 5-6. I found it rare for a deck to go more than 5 above or below zero, but if both decks go 5 off of zero in the same direction, you bet corresponding hardway and the come line, because sevens and easy 4/10 are less favored then.

You'd be even more stealth if you just threw out a minimum don't pass and counted until you it went really low, then started a hopper bet progression for the 12- a 30:1 payout that's easy to chase once you've gotten the odds right.

However, in doing this I quickly figured out that california casinos are stacking their shoes for card craps. All you need is a layer rich in 3s in one deck and a layer rich in 4s in the other deck, and all you have to do is track a layer of cards about the size of a single deck while shuffling and make sure that layer ends up near the front of the shoe. This spreads out the numbers that you get and produces a lot of 7s. But as they shuffle and reshuffle, that layer moves and gets spread out. Sometimes they lose track of it and all of a sudden you're getting multiple runs of 20-30 between crap outs. I developed a whole system of mixing dont pass with place bets specifically to sit at a craps table for hours waiting for them to mess up the stack, and staved off the exhaustion of my savings for an extra month this way a few years ago when I was down to my last hundred bucks and out of work- the 5th time out they finally got my last hundred bucks, after I'd doubled it or better 4 times in a row. I haven't played in a California casino since though because I felt like I was playing cat and mouse with people who were obviously cheating.

a reply to: The Vagabond

Sorry, you lost me at "come to California."

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom

originally posted by: jhn7537
a reply to: VictorVonDoom



Actually a really good explanation that makes total sense... And as a degenerate gambler

I totally get it now... Thank you sir!



I'm more of a poker/craps player, but I dabble in blackjack depending on who I'm at the casino with...

Beat the Dealer: A Winning Strategy for the Game of Twenty-One

Stick to the low limit tables, don't attract attention, and you might be able to support your craps habit.

Have you ever worked with a buddy? Peron playing low limits and when count looks good signals you in?

a reply to: jhn7537

Nah. I got a copy of Beat the Dealer back in the early 80s. Being at sea for months at a time gave me plenty of time to practice. Always went by myself. I would do pretty good at the tables until they would switch dealers on me. Then I would start to lose, quit and have a few drinks, then try a different table. After a few hands, the other dealer would come to my table and I would start to lose again. I took the hint, cashed my chips and left.

I doubt I would have the mental stamina to count cards anymore. They were only using 4 decks back then.

Not only should Ben Affleck be banned from the casino, someone should try to figure out a way for him to be banned from playing the Batman...OMG, that movie is truly going to suck a big one...

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: StallionDuck

They'll take your cars, your home, everything.... But they wont let you apply simple logic and math techniques to even the odds? How sad and messed up is that?!?

Its their casino, their rule remember

It's OUR country... Our rules. Least that's how it's supposed to be. "Their Rules" also has rules and responsibility. I highly doubt they're following all the rules made by this country.

When you're drunk, they're supposed to cut you off... Instead, they hand you a free drink so you'll not have your wits about you, thus stealing more of your money. When you drug someone and make them sign over your property, it's illegal. How is this any different?

Just as I said before... Double standards and loopholes. I still stand by, Our Country.. Our Rules..

a reply to: FlyersFan

I got tossed out of Circus Circus playing Blackjack, but for
a whole different reason. Noticing how often myself and the rest
of the table would win the first hand after I sat down at a table.
I decided to make every hand my first hand. So after winning the
first hand, I'd sit the next hand out. Then play the next and not
only was I winning, but the other five hands at the table were
raking it in. So they all saw what was happening and started
increasing their bets on the hand I was coming in on. This only
went on for two more hands and then, the little korean gal who
was dealing, went off on me.

"If you' gonna sit dare you half to play every hand!"
The whole table froze in silence as the pit boss moved in
along side her. And before I could even begin to say, "Where is that
rule?". Two huge talking apes got loose from there cage ( they were
actually pretty cool and conducted their business with full respect
for myself and thier job). Any way King tapped me on the shoulder
and Kong put his hand under my elbow gently and spoke softly in
my ear. " Sir it would mostly be to our advantage, but also your own
if you'd pick up your winnings". I'm pretty savy most of the time and
looked Kong right in the eye and said, "Not a problem". They escorted
me to the door, praising me for not making a scene. And also for being
the first person, they ever tossed out, not agreeing with management,
as to the why. And by the time I strolled to the next Casino, I was
greeted at the door by management telling me, I could enjoy the Casino
as much as I like, but I was barred from the blackjack tables. I was up a
measley $1500.

But just when I thought I had 'em by the cahounnies.

If they don't do this they can't project yearly profits to pay off workers' promised salaries/pensions. In this day and age NO ONE can afford to run a non-profit "fun house" that gives out money.

What I do agree with is that it would be nice and fun to play a game that rewards good players. Casinos are HUGE and plenty for a reason. Just like the banks are and until the word "industry" is removed from entertainment. This won't change.

a reply to: StallionDuck

Who is 'They' and 'Them' in this context? Are we limiting 'Them' to the major corporate casinos of the Las Vegas Strip and Downtown Reno, or do we all become 'them' when we open a business in this nation? Is it just a casino?

I can say some of my better days playing have been in 1 horse town type places along the back roads of Nevada. Same rules there tho. Given that they own the property, and it's a 100% private business? Shouldn't we, as the consumer bear the burden of knowing and accepting the rules we walk into?

Ditto on the drink..and I guess that's what kinda caught my eye. If we choose to overdo it and drink too much to lose all our money, is it the Casinos fault for following our requests for more or is it our fault for lacking anything like self control or decent conduct in a public place?

I suppose I just wonder sometimes where we draw the line of personal responsibility for our own actions and choices vs. blaming others in the world who supply what we choose?

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
I've always felt if someone was so highly intelligent and capable of tracking so much at once, as card counting requires to be successful? It's a real waste of true talent to be throwing it toward cheating Casinos out of a few bucks in what anyone who knows gambling is aware they react almost violently to.

No 'Almost' about it in the old days. It's said if the dead buried in the deserts around Vegas were to rise at once, the valley's population would increase by double digit %'s. I tend to think folks who have said that, have a point. I wonder how many figured card counting was legal...so what could anyone do? Errr....

Why do you say "cheating?"

Is there some moral compass by which mob based gambling is set up?

The mob, through the system of casinos, have been using mind control techniques as sophisticated as it gets to get folks to "give" them money all for the chance to lose. If one can use the same general tactics to play fairly against the unfair system they have created I see no reason why it should be called cheating. The casino "Counts Cards" to win by using the odds created by the counting to stack things in their favor, it hardly seems like "cheating" to play the game in the same manner as they play. It is like saying a 7 foot tall basketball player is cheating by dunking on a 6 foot tall player over and over again. The game is the game.

Casinos do not play fair, nothing is 50/50 and they are in the business of tricking people, through very sophisticated means, into giving them money. They are so good at the dupe that the entire city of Las Vegas is BUILT in losers, millions of losers, straight up losers, and yet there are millions of losers waiting to give them money. Mob and casino gambling on sports assures us that nearly every important sporting event is fixed - I know this for a fact. These are not generous, fair minded people who will send the gambling addict home rather then see him lose his house. I say if you can count, count.

Only women should count cards. The prevailing thought is that women are to stupid to count cards.

My GF a whiz at any type of game, supplements her pension quite nicely at the Indian Casino 5 miles down the road.

At holdem she is a monster!!

a reply to: olaru12

Women are often as spotters in blackjack, when the deck gets hot she signals the big player to sit down and bet the max. She does not change her strategy, pretends like she does not know the big player and continues to keep count. It is extremely tough for a casino to catch this type of team work. They catch individual counters by their betting patterns.

There is a somewhat related story about Borgata suing Phil Ivey and his gambling partner taking them in New Jersey for over $9 million over the course of several sessions and a few months at the baccarat tables using a method called edge sorting. Apparently Iver and Cheng Yin Sun knew about a manufacturing flaw on the edges of the card decks that Borgata were using. They were able to exploit the flaw for over $9 million before the casino figured it out, now they are being sued. The card manufacturer is being sued too.

Personally I think it is the casino's responsibility to make sure there are now flaws in their gaming equipment. It will be interesting to see what the court decides if it goes that far.

Details Emerge in Borgata's lawsuit against Phil Ivey

It’s funny that casinos can change the rules as they please, yet ban people for counting cards? All counting cards essentially is is taking note of what is happening on the table. It’s playing smart and literally taking calculated risks as opposed to betting blindly. The staff are highly trained in detecting betting habits and all that and that’s how card counters are asked to leave.

This is how much of a joke casinos are, the one here added a double zero to their roulette tables. Furthermore, in black jack they removed the rule of the “soft 16” (in the day if the dealer drew an Ace and a 5 they’d have to stand on 16, now it’s not the case and they can hit) and the most annoying thing they changed was that they could drew 22 and still win! Just a few days ago, I stood on 19 and thought “oh yeah, should have a good chance of winning here”. The dealer drew 22 and took my money! It’s disgraceful! But they’ve only introduced it to the main tables, and have not brought it on the high rollers and all those big money tables.

With those rule changes they should have changed the name from ‘black jack’ to ’22’ or something like that because if a dealer can win after drawing a 22 and the players would bust if drawing that, then it’s just not black jack.

originally posted by: jrod
a reply to: olaru12

Women are often as spotters in blackjack, when the deck gets hot she signals the big player to sit down and bet the max. She does not change her strategy, pretends like she does not know the big player and continues to keep count. It is extremely tough for a casino to catch this type of team work. They catch individual counters by their betting patterns.

There is a somewhat related story about Borgata suing Phil Ivey and his gambling partner taking them in New Jersey for over $9 million over the course of several sessions and a few months at the baccarat tables using a method called edge sorting. Apparently Iver and Cheng Yin Sun knew about a manufacturing flaw on the edges of the card decks that Borgata were using. They were able to exploit the flaw for over $9 million before the casino figured it out, now they are being sued. The card manufacturer is being sued too.

Personally I think it is the casino's responsibility to make sure there are now flaws in their gaming equipment. It will be interesting to see what the court decides if it goes that far.

Details Emerge in Borgata's lawsuit against Phil Ivey

I read the lawsuit charges... It sounds like they’re suing themselves! “Unjust enrichment”, racketeering. Sounds like the very things casinos are involved in. Unfortunately for them they just lost at their own game.

Casinos are rigged from top to bottom to steal your money and suck your soul. They let you play as long as you lose at their games but as soon as you start winning they kick you out, it's a win-win situation for them. Not to mention the criminal odds they put on their slot machines and other similar games. That's why their lobbyists are always pushing to have online gambling banned in as many states and countries as possible, the odds are often much fairer and you don't have to leave your house, so it's a big threat to the casino industry. With the advent of cryptocurrency online gambling has been revived and I'm glad it has been. While gambling can affect lives in a negative way we all make our own choices, and at least with online gambling you don't have to go up against criminal odds. Most laws that try to protect us from ourselves are not justifiable at the end of the day.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Casinos do not have that much of an edge. The house edge in most casino games is astronomically small compared to the 'house edge' in state run lotteries. That is why I call the lottery the stupid tax.

Got friends that try to count. Fastest way to get a dirty look is to walk up to the table and yell "Hey, Jeff, what's the count?"

a reply to: Bone75
I've been to many casinos that not only have, but advertise, single deck blackjack. Besides that, in a shoe with six decks, card counters use what is called a true count. Basically averaging what they have counted vs. what's left in the deck. It's all math and probabilities.. You don't think you can just add more decks and make the problem go away?
The only thing adding decks does is narrow down the possibilities of card counters. You see a guy suddenly raise his bets at the end of a shoe.. Derp.
As long as you don't get as greedy as the casino you can win. If not, well you end up on the news.

You always have to be smarter than the guy that's chasing you. True in life, true in card counting.

originally posted by: jrod
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Casinos do not have that much of an edge. The house edge in most casino games is astronomically small compared to the 'house edge' in state run lotteries. That is why I call the lottery the stupid tax.

Most casino patrons play slots. The house edge on slots is 23% on average. 23% profit margin is good for any business, especially when a customer is willing to drop thousands in hope of a slice of their pie.

originally posted by: totallackey
Not only should Ben Affleck be banned from the casino, someone should try to figure out a way for him to be banned from playing the Batman...OMG, that movie is truly going to suck a big one...

Affleck sucks at cheating and in acting, Bigtime!