The Only Way God is Real.

a reply to: ArtemisE

I think most religious people believe science and religion are both right. Because they can't deny there micro-wave works and they want to believe there religion is true.

Not entirely true. Someone can believe something works without having any knowledge on how it works. Do most people know exactly how a microwave works? No, they don't...but they have taken as truth what other people have told them. Do most people care how a microwave works? No, they don't...as long as it heats up their food consistently and safely...they really don't care. They don't have to admit or deny anything...they just simply use their microwave.

Atheists don't need to be insecure about there beliefs because they only believe in proven facts. No faith required.

Again, simply not true. Atheists are only defined by one thing...they don't believe a god exists. There may be atheists out there that don't believe in god and think "science" is complete garbage. I am sure there are atheists out there that absolutely believe in aliens, bigfoot, Lochness monster, or any other unproven topics.

To say that "Atheists only believe in proven facts" totally ruins any credibility you had and severely corrupts the idea that you only believe in "proven facts".

On the topic of faith...faith doesn't only have to be attributed to a belief in a deity. Almost everyone uses faith to fill the gaps in their own knowledge...I would bet you do as well. Let's look at your microwave example from before. If you don't know exactly how a microwave works, down to the electronics and radiation theory of how everything combines to work...are you not taking the "knowledge" that microwaves work based off of studied and proven scientific experiments on purely faith?

If you happen to be a microwave technician, then pick any other topic that you don't have 100% firsthand knowledge about...like it or not, you are taking a lot of "facts" purely on faith.

a reply to: Quadrivium

The beauty of science is that its truths aren't subjective. If all of scientific discoveries were erased from the planet, people in the future will independently discover the exact same scientific truths. If we erased all of the religions from the planet, a whole new bunch of contradictory beliefs will emerge, each proclaiming that their way is the truth.

Well, the original post wasn't directed at me. So I didn't feel obliged.

You asked the person to explain where the Universe came from, where God came from, what God is and how God exists. As you are well aware, with no answer yourself, it's impossible to expect it from someone else.

For me, faith in something after this life or in "God" is an extremely valuable thing to have. And yes, it does play a role in the meaning of my life... Why wouldn't 'where we came from' and 'where we are going' play a part in your life? It's natural to wonder these things. And for me, logic dictates the following:

1) We're not here by accident or from some lucky event
2) We go somewhere after this life.

I'd rather you didn't ask me how I know the above, because it's an observation and a bit of faith. And without faith, you wouldn't understand.

Reminder to anyone reading this: FAITH is not FEAR. I do not believe because I'm scared that there is nothing else after this life. I am NOT believing out of fear. What's to lose either way - Why would i be scared?

a reply to: ArtemisE




Waiting for the revolution
New clear vision - genocide
Computerize god - it's the new religion
Program the brain - not the heartbeat (actually they can program the heart beat-$$$$$ for EP Cardiology Industry)

Onward all you crystal soldiers
Touch tomorrow - energize
Digital dreams
And you're the next correction
Man's a mistake so we'll fix it, yeah

Take a look at your own reflection
Right before your eyes
It turns to steel

Chorus:
There's another side of heaven
This way - to technical paradise
Find it on the other side
When the walls fall down

Love is automatic pleasure
Virtual reality
Terminal hate - it's a calculation
Send in the child for connection

Take a look at the toys around you
Right before your eyes
The toys are real

Chorus

Midnight confessions
Never heal the soul
What you believe is fantasy

Your past is your future
Left behind
Lost in time
Will you surrender

Waiting for the revolution
Program the brain
Not the heartbeat

Deliver us to evil
Deny us of our faith
Robotic hearts bleed poison
On the world we populate

Virtual existence
With a superhuman mind
The ultimate creation
Destroyer of mankind

Termination of our youth
For we do not compute
No !


Science is so tiny and you will just have to trust me on this one.

There is a way to know that God is real With the help of science and the knowledge we have today.

There are many ways to approuch the answers. Lets start out by mentioning time.

Many think that before we had finite, before the singularity was formed. Time did not exist. But even though you dont have finite time, you will still have a time frame. It is just not a finite time frame.

If you have no time frame at all. Time would be absolute. Time would be a absolute constant. Time would be absolute neutral. Time would be infinite.

There is no way we can have any form of time unless there is a time line that is a absolute constant/infinite. There is just no way.

a reply to: spy66
Have you noticed that it is always now? Now just appears differently.

This is timeless being - or God.

Now has motion but it is always at rest.
God is motion and rest.

a reply to: spy66

i was born in 66 as well.

a reply to: GetHyped
What?
Science is not subjective? Then how is anything ever invented? Everything starts with idea.

a reply to: Quadrivium

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the objectivity of science nor that you're using a definition of 'objective' that most people would use.

Regardless, what exactly are you disagreeing with in my post? That if scientific knowledge was erased, the same truths would be re-discovered? That if all religions were erased, new ones would take their place?

originally posted by: ArtemisE
a reply to: SpaceGoatFarts

I just think the religious know there are MAJOR discrepancies in the biblical tales versus what science has found. So they hate debating the topic because the facts are on the side of science. This is a deep seeded belief that people were raised since birth to believe. So they fight to hold onto what they have been taught was the foundation of there life.

Atheists don't need to be insecure about there beliefs because they only believe in proven facts. No faith required. Christians hate things that make them question there faith so they get defensive and attack. Following the conservative play book ( almost all evangelicals are conservative) where you accuse the other side of doing precisely what you are.

Sorry.. but lol.

Christians get defensive and attack? First of all, lets review what you just said.

Christians are the only religion that believe in God?
Christians are the only ones who get defensive and attack?
I've read a lot of underhanded, aggressive and cocky comments from Atheists in my time to know aggression comes from anyone regardless of their beliefs.

Lets remember there are other Religions/Faiths in this world other than Christianity. That was an extremely ignorant comment.

Now, on to the "biblical" part of what you said. I was raised a Catholic. Do I believe every single word in the Bible to be FACT and take it LITERALLY? - I'm not going to answer that.

WHY do people think Religion = Faith = Bible. NO. Stop it.

I was raised Catholic (granted, I don't practice too often these days) but my beliefs are deeply routed in my observations and faith. Not in the church or what the Bible teaches. My faith comes from my life experiences, my observations and my own limited attempt at understanding of what is going on in this life.

Atheism is also not as clear cut as you seem to believe. I know Atheists that believe in all sorts of nonsense - They don't just believe in "FACTS" They chose not to believe in a God/Creator/ID because Science hasn't proven it's existence. Well, I'm sorry. But "Science" was created and is an ongoing venture of MAN. How on earth do you expect something created by MAN to find the true origins of who we are, why we are here, where we came from and where we are going? I honestly believe it never will fully answer these questions.

And before you say it..... The bible? Written by MAN, Yes! - That's why my beliefs lie through logic, observation and faith not just Religion/Bible/Church etc. And guess what, I still believe in some sort of Intelligent Design. :O

originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: Quadrivium

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the objectivity of science nor that you're using a definition of 'objective' that most people would use.

Regardless, what exactly are you disagreeing with in my post? That if scientific knowledge was erased, the same truths would be re-discovered? That if all religions were erased, new ones would take their place?

So we moved from subjective to objective? You know there not the same right?

Yes if we lost all knowledge of science we would eventually get that knowledge back, probably wouldn't follow the same lines as we did before.
The samething can be said for religion.
Science does not disprove religion. Religion does not disprove science.
I have heard "microwave ovens" mentioned several times. I understand how and why they work and I also believe in God.
I understand how many things work because of the type of work I do, none of this takes away from my belief in God.
Remember what I said about the double slit experiment?
If you're looking, you will see it.
If you're not, then you won't.
Free will brother. You can look but He is not going to force you to.

originally posted by: MrConspiracy
And before you say it..... The bible? Written by MAN, Yes! - That's why my beliefs lie through logic, observation and faith not just Religion/Bible/Church etc. And guess what, I still believe in some sort of Intelligent Design. :O

Good post.

Some people really have a hard time understanding being theist doesn't mean reading the Bible literally.

It's not because a few anglo-saxon protestant do it, believe in creationism and deny evolution that all religions do. It's really tiring when atheists make such generalizations.

The Vatican accepts evolution, the Big bang model is from a catholic priest and genetics were discovered by a monk.

Come on atheists, science doesn't belong to you alone!

originally posted by: Quadrivium
So we moved from subjective to objective? You know there not the same right?

...which is exactly why I stated that science is objective.

Yes if we lost all knowledge of science we would eventually get that knowledge back, probably wouldn't follow the same lines as we did before.

No, it would be exactly the same. F=ma will always be F=ma. Not F=2ma, not F=m+a, not F=ma^2, but F=ma.

The samething can be said for religion.

If we ignore the fact that each culture throughout history has their own religion, often orthogonal to every other religion, sure.

Science does not disprove religion. Religion does not disprove science.

Science doesn't care about religion. The only people that get butthurt about science are religious people who don't like the fact that the findings of science very much falsify some of their specific religious claims about the natural world.

I have heard "microwave ovens" mentioned several times. I understand how and why they work and I also believe in God.
I understand how many things work because of the type of work I do, none of this takes away from my belief in God.
Remember what I said about the double slit experiment?
If you're looking, you will see it.
If you're not, then you won't.
Free will brother. You can look but He is not going to force you to.

And what exactly is the relevance of the double slit experiment here? Please don't attempt to water down science by adding some baseless mystical claptrap on top to make it sit with your religious and philosophical beliefs.

a reply to: GetHyped
I will try to break this down for you. You seem like a highly intelligent person and through out my life I have found that many with high intelligence have a slight problem with common sense. Not saying that you do, just that has been my experience.
First you made a statement about science not being subjective or the truthes of science not being subjective.
It is and they are.
If they were not, how could we advance?

Science and Religion in my opinion more than likely start in the same place in the human mind.
If knowledge of both were totally erased we would find both. We probably would not follow the same lines of thinking as before.
The double split experiment.
Basically if you seek you will find.

a reply to: SuperFrog

I don't have all the answers.

And using Tsunamis and disasters to disprove God's existence is ridiculous. You've done nothing but relay someone else's comments to me.

Natural disasters happen. Disease happens. It's terrible, I agree. But when it's used to prove God/ID doesn't exist, it becomes so weak.

originally posted by: ArtemisE

Just so not to false advertise, I'm a pretty hard core atheist who LOVES the science vs. religion debate.


Secondly the god I am referencing is not really the Hebrew god. I am more referencing the concept of an omnipotent, all knowing, all seeing creator. Tho if my theory is true. It wouldn't discount the Hebrew god either.


Ok, done with disclaimers. :p





There's one scientific theory on the true nature of the universe that I always hope doesn't come up when debating the religious side.....and it's got nothing to do with creationism or the bible.

The only way I can conceive the reality of a omnipotent god is simulation theory. I might be misrepresenting the real simulation theory, but what I mean is the "matrix" theory. The theory that reality is one big computer program. IMHO this is the one that really makes the most sense and would almost require a programmer. One who had nearly infallible control of his creation. Aka god!


The reason I'm coming to this conclustion is in no way tied to religious texts or religious experiences. It's because of some of the known scientific findings and please correct me if I'm wrong.



1: EVERYTHING is made of energy. Just like 1's and 0's.

2: double slit electron experiment.
The reason electrons act the way they do could be because you wouldn't need to run the program where no one was observing. That's why the electrons don't choose a path untitled some one observes them. There would be no need to run the program for some cave in mars, if no one was looking at or scanning it.

3: (man! I had another good one I can't remember now :p hope to add in edit :p )

The draw back is, it's a very religious theory in the fact it explains EVERYTHING without explianing anything... The programmer did it all and he works in mysterious ways. :p

You are somewhat correct, but the Hebrew translation of "God" is Gods!

Somehow most people never got it right from the get-go and are not willing to listen to the truth.

There was and still is a war in the heavens between the good and bad angels.

They are NOT human...

If you want to better understand who we are and how we got here the Holy Bible can help if you are able to relate
it to modern understanding of old scripture words.

There is or show I say are Gods, but they are NOT what most people think!

originally posted by: MrConspiracy
a reply to: SuperFrog

I don't have all the answers.

And using Tsunamis and disasters to disprove God's existence is ridiculous. You've done nothing but relay someone else's comments to me.

Natural disasters happen. Disease happens. It's terrible, I agree. But when it's used to prove God/ID doesn't exist, it becomes so weak.

Who used disasters to prove or disapprove God/ID? You missed point of that post by a large... Natural disasters are not happening every 10 days... please check that second video again.

I just question what you called 'intelligent'. That is IMHO bad word selection...

a reply to: SuperFrog

No no... I read the post. I just focused in on the fact you were getting at God is either

1) Not real (you didn't say it, but you were implying it to some extent)
2) Or that God IS real and he causes/lets natural disasters to happen.

At the end of the day you and I both know that this world is not "perfect" I mean, in comparison to other planets it's doing quite well on the perfect scale but it's certainly not there. So, by default, accidents and disasters WILL happen.

Intelligent is the word I'll continue to use because it's more understood and differentiates between the "luck" or "chance" of existence. It's just easier. If you'd rather say "stupid design with a sloppy hand" then, that's OK. You can chose to do so.

And you're right, natural disasters don't happen on that scale every 10 days. So why on earth is that video relevant? I watched the video and it stated that if God" exists... God can't help or doesn't want to. Right? So what they are trying to say is... make up your mind - Incompetent God or evil God... Leaving many to perhaps move away from the original belief in God.. because none of the options are good!

Don't you see it, when we take things literally... Forget the bible, forget it all for one second. We know how this planet is made up (well, most of it) and we know what it can cause. So why would you, I or ANYONE blame intelligent design for disasters that were inevitable due to this planets make up.

I took religious studies at school (as many did) and I said to my teacher "So if God exists... and disasters happen... Could we say God made the best of a bad job?" And he thought it was the best thing he'd heard all day. Personally, I didn't think it was all that amazing, I was about 16 and didn't really care too much about what I was saying.

But this world is as imperfect as you or I who live on it. Just like we make mistakes and have faults... so does the planet we live on. Who are we to discredit intelligent design because terrible things happen?

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: spy66
Have you noticed that it is always now? Now just appears differently.

This is timeless being - or God.

Now has motion but it is always at rest.
God is motion and rest.

Yes i know it is always now. But we can only have the present time if a infinite and absolute constant timeline exists.

If we look back in time. We know that we have at least one more timeline that no one actually think much about. I dont think there is one person in here who have ever considdered that there must have been a compression timeline.

-It must have taken some amount of time to form the compressed singularity. In other Words there used to be a compression timeline before the expansion timeline started.

You can call it anything you like, it does not change facts that not only it is not intelligent (look at our body), but it is quite against life - we can survive only on this planet, and even on this planet we can use only small % of its cover due to harsh environment and ~71% of earth being covered with water.

There is no need for any kinds of design or designer, science knows how we evolved and there is NO question if evolution did happen and its happening.

We also know from historical evidence that humans created many gods, there were supposed 'messages' from God, but today we have different opinion about people who hear voices, especially one claiming that voices tells them to kill their own children.

In my opinion, it is not question if there is a God or not, or if there was ID or not - but just a question - when education will improve in USA as well in many other countries that show problems with education or have regime that prefer fairy tales over education.