Odessa slaughter: How vicious mob burnt anti-govt activists alive

a reply to: darkorange

Try reading my post again, my point is at the end. I thought the point is clear enough: "the same thing is happening now that caused WWII". But if I wrote just that, then I would be asked to explain that.

It also helps if you're the person that my post is directed to, since it's part of a discussion that goes back a few pages.

originally posted by: Vovin
a reply to: Siddharta

1920s Germany would be my case for "good" fascism.

A few days ago an intelligent observer wrote: "I never would have thought to see so many fascists declare, that they are fighting for the anti-fascist cause."
I also could add: I never would have thought to see so many anti-fascists support fascist ideas, because they don't judge the actions, but believe in accusations.

This is an odd mixture of totally different opponents standing side by side.

The confusion is visible in your statements. You think the beginning of the worst kind of fascism, my country and the whole world ever saw, was good? It was somehow understandable from the circumstances. But it never was good. People thought they found a strong leadership to get them out of unsecure times. They brought the worst times ever instead.

There are some parallels now with the conflict in Ukraine.

The problems surely come from right winged people, no doubt. Right wingers, who think they can take things into their own hands, accuse each and everybody, who is not with them, turning things upside down and practice double think, even in their own perception.

It is strange to see you people here defend Putin and the criminals in eastern Ukraine, while accusing the main part of the country as murderers and fascists, especially seeing, how many of you sympathize with fascism yourselves. The Ukraine needs a future perspective. You here only lament and shout as if that country should have no right to exist anymore. Maybe this first meeting of Putin and Poroshenko yesterday will bring at least a spark of hope.

Meanwhile you can post some more photos and accusations and give each other stars for the great comments. This won't change the history.

1920 would be your case for "good" fascism... tsts...

a reply to: Siddharta

You better watch what you say, I never once stated that I sympathized with fascism- I merely provided my opinion of how fascism as an ideology could be useful for society. Perhaps, as a German, you think you're people should have been subjected as inferiors to the allies who crush and pillaged it after WWI?

Don't forget, you're the one who is openly supporting neo-Nazi fascists in their genocide of East Ukraine people's, while claiming it is an "anti-fascist" struggle. You're not fooling anybody.

EDIT: just incase you were genuinely confused, I defined it as "good" fascism in that it was useful for society, not that it was made up of bunny rabbits and rainbows and lollipops. I could have just called it "friendly fascism", which I saw in some research documents back in university describing 1980s USA.


Edit 2:



There's Slavyansk today after bombardment by the junta. Though according to some members, this is an anti-terrorist operation against fascists who conquered the city for Russia.

Meanwhile, rebels and women and children are dying while Russia tries to sort out a refuge influx.

Anyone still think the Odessa incident was a coincidence?

So i just watched a video, wherein an alleged participant of the Odessa slaughter confesses to have killed 10people. Also confesses that dead victims have been brought to the forest. And that he was paid about 30 dollars (in ukrainian currency) a day by maidan 'self defence'

Then again, no context who did the video, plus the guy looks not like the brightest bulb and has visible marks like somebody beat him up.

Not sure what to make of it. Especially on this subject, where propaganda and misinfo runs wild on all sides.

Maybe someone with ukrainian language skills can tell us at least if the translation is correct.

Here is the link: Confession of an Odessa murder

a reply to: svetlana84

The Kiev Junta offense.
Self-recognition of Maidan member in massacres
This character was captured by the LPR Security Service during the Kiev Junta's punitive operations.
During interrogation, he confessed to murdering people in Kiev House of Trade Unions.

This guy killed 10 people and counted 99 corpses which were transported to Brovary forest near Kiev.
It was in February, when the so called democratic revolution happened in Nulandistan. Odessa Massacre was the same routine of the same gangsters, with 48-54 killed and 50 missing. Victoria was there yesterday:

originally posted by: Vovin
Don't forget, you're the one who is openly supporting neo-Nazi fascists in their genocide of East Ukraine people's, while claiming it is an "anti-fascist" struggle. You're not fooling anybody.

There you go again! Questioning the Russian propaganda and asking for facts is supporting neo-Nazis.

What neo-Nazis? The few groups that run around in uniforms with odd symbols and try to make a lot of noice? They don't have much support in Ukraine. The elections showed that they only got about 2% of the votes, while in many EU countries right winged parties had much more voters.

What genozide? The military actions against those criminals in the east of the Ukraine? Do you call it a genozide of the Chechens in the east, because they had to sent a whole truck of dead fighters back to their homeland in Chechnya? Do you say, it is a genozide of Ukrainians killing Ukrainians?

The situation for the mlitary is very dificult. On the one hand there are self acclaimed leaders sitting inmidst of the towns and on the other hand they have to watch the borders, where fighters from other countries try to cross.

What we read here in this thread is mainly fiction, parroting of Russian propaganda, one sided reports, which often make no sense in themselves. It does not make any sense to add the pro-Ukrainian reports now, because they are also painted with hate and often nothing but rumours.

But what is clear at this point: No matter, what the Ukraine is trying to do, some don't stop to call it a nazi-junta. An interims government? Nazi-junta. An elected president? Nazi-junta. When the new parliament will be elected, we already know: Nazi-junta.

One could think that many are afraid, that this conflict could come to an end.

a reply to: Siddharta
There are more and more unpleasant moments for Merkel in Bundestag, guess why? I hope you noticed that.

Sahra Wagenknecht, Die Linke deputy chair (German):"Apparently the German government wanted to support the powers which stand for democracy, freedom and Europe against those that stand for an oligarchy, poverty, and corruption. Today you support a government, in which four ministers belong to an open anti-semitic, anti-Russian Nazi party. A government which heats up the conflict and today leads a brutal war against its own people. You support a president which won his election with his own wealth of billions which were robbed and a own TV channel, an oligarch which in terms of racketeering, corruption and illegal business activities is not even comparable to former president Yanukovych and by the way, once was even his minister."

If you believe the Ukrainian propaganda slogans, they are dying for "United Ukraine". But how can there be unity of the country, when one part bombing and artillery shoots another? Even the most apolitical "westerns" are beginning to understand that after the bombing and shelling the unity for which they were sent for slaughter, is impossible.

Unfortunately, however, they do not realize that in fact they do not sacrifice for the sake of the mythical "unity", but for the sake of American geopolitical interests and in interests of Ukrainian government officials and Ukrainian oligarchs.

I can understand Kolomoisky. For him, the current Donbass is a slave revolt, which should drown in blood. His money and power depends on it. I can understand Ukrainian officials, for whom this war - the new "trough" for personal enrichment. But I do not understand why the average western ukrainians want carnage. After all, it is someone else's war, which, moreover, they are doomed to lose, even if the ATO will flood the whole Donbass in blood.

a reply to: maghun

Bravo

The ability of Putin and his band of merry stalins to put out so many lies as to confuse their own people is amazing. Try as you might to blame the west, the jig is up.

Russia was caught red-handed in Ukraine Crimea.
Russia was caught red-handed supporting the groups that are attacking Pro Kiev forces.
Russia was caught red-handed in Transnistria.

Currently Russia is throwing a tantrum because there is a NATO exercise in one of the Baltic states involving NATO forces. They have made demands about it, and rightfully, the Russians were met with silence. I find it absolutely hilarious that Russia is pissed about NATO expansion while at the same time creating a situation that is pushing countries into NATO.

I find it funny Russia says troops movements in their own borders are no one else's concern yet then they whine and bitch when they are told the same from other countries.

This is not the 1980's.
Russia is not the Soviet Union.
Putin is a coward who is still waiting for a spine donor.

a reply to: maghun
The party DieLinke is still not accepted by the other parties as an equal partner. This is due to the fact that this party was a fusion of leftists from West Germany and the PDS from East Germany. PDS again was directly formed with the members of the SED, the party that reigned the GDR. Obviously some there are still dreaming of the times when Russia was the heart of the Soviet Union and Eastern Germany was part fo the Warsaw Pact.

I see DieLinke differently. I even used to vote for them a few times, always knowing that they never would get into power, but being a good party for opposition against the parties that reign. I did not vote for them for the European parliament and local elections this time, because too many voices from their party are eager to ignore the fact that Russia started the whole conflict with annexing the Crimea and giving hope to local wanna-be-bosses that they would occupy the east as soon as the Ukraine would try to stop them.

There is no homogenous population in the east that wants to be part of Russia or even be independant from Ukraine. There are some towns where rebels took over the government buidings, supported by fighters from Crimea and different parts from Russia. They even don't agree with each other. Ponomaryov, self acclaimed mayor of Slovyansk has disappeared on Monday morning. Meanwhile it is confirmed that he was pulled out of the game, some say detained. Slovyansk was famous for not accepting any national or international rules at all, kidnapping journalists of all nationalities and people of the OSCE (not only those from the first group, who were not official OSCE leagates, but also other legates).

Also Russian commander Strelko aka Girkin has not been seen for a while. Last month there was a speculation that he would leave in June, because his task was limited. Meanwhile different sources say, they are training new volunteers in Rostov, Russia, to send them to the East.

This is not a war against the Civilians. But as in every war or bellicose conflict the Civilians have to suffer the most. But what should the government do? They just offered to the fighters to drop their weapons and to the Russians to go home. Should they leave the east to those outlaws and leave the people alone with them? Those wanna-be-leaders don't know anything about politics, not economics nor how to run a "People's Republic". They simply rely on Putin or say sullenly: We don't need anybody.

The only way out of this mess is a united Ukraine. I think, the idea of a federation is not too bad. But the Ukraine had problems before and will have even more problems in the future. But also Russia is causing it's own problems. Why should countries like Ukraine and Georgia ever want to get closer to Russia again after their experiences with Russian imperialism? And if we are talking about the oligarchs: Isn't this the problem with all former Soviet states? Especially Putin's Russia and the few that follow him. It is a long way from centralized power to democratic structures. Give those a chance, who want to try it.

a reply to: Siddharta

You only forgot the most important thing: Yats is a hubbard-slave, Poroshenko is an agent for U.S. State Department and all mess was sponsored by oligarchs whose origin cannot be named without punishment.

Poroshenko

NGOs? Nuland? Ashton?

[Lavrov] said the Russian Ambassador to the UN Vitaly Churkin “will be calling the OSCE mission which has observers in Ukraine, to establish facts [of using indiscriminate weapons], as well as will strive for the investigation into the tragedies in Odessa on May 2, in Mariupol on May 9, the ongoing actions in Kramatorsk and Slavyansk, and the snipers’ case on Maidan in February – all those probes should be brought to a close.”

Geneva convention? White phosphorus?



West believes that the new "Moscow's plan" is to move to a "new style of war", which is very similar to the Western "non-military" strategy, indicate Western analysts. And Putin is very "opaque", or, as Obama said, "dark."

Back to Odessa. Nowadays at nights cars and buildings catching fire for unknown reasons in Odessa region, the only similarity in events is the presence of yellow-blue flags in cars and on buildings... Odessa was a famous partisan city in WWII, now they starting to wake up and the enemy is the same as was 70 years ago: nazi's.

Several dozen activists were killed on May 2 during a fire in the House of Trade Unions in Odessa. According to official data, 48 people became victims, in all actuality more than 200. At the same time local deputy Vadim Savenko said that Kiev authorities hide the true number of deaths in the House of Trade Unions: according to his information, 116 people were killed.

Activist from Odessa

a reply to: maghun 70 years backwards, yes this is how I see that propaganda. You don't want to give those people a chance to get on their own feet, do you? Ukrainians may not decide how to live their lives and especially not with longings for democracy. They have to understand, that they are part of former Soviet Union and they are not free to chose, not free to have their own will.
Only Russia knows, what is good for them. They are stupid Nazis and have no live at all. If they only would be good Nazis, as they have them in Russia. But no: They decided to be bad Russians.. errr.. bad Nazis.

Come on, tell us more of that stupid stuff and you know, nobody will follow that #, despite the four people here, who give each other stars for every idiotic comment.

This is not helpful for anybody in eastern Ukraine. As you understand Russian, maybe you can explain this conversation to us:

Oops! No propaganda actors here?

originally posted by: Siddharta

originally posted by: Vovin
Don't forget, you're the one who is openly supporting neo-Nazi fascists in their genocide of East Ukraine people's, while claiming it is an "anti-fascist" struggle. You're not fooling anybody.

There you go again! Questioning the Russian propaganda and asking for facts is supporting neo-Nazis.

What neo-Nazis? The few groups that run around in uniforms with odd symbols and try to make a lot of noice? They don't have much support in Ukraine. The elections showed that they only got about 2% of the votes, while in many EU countries right winged parties had much more voters.

What genozide? The military actions against those criminals in the east of the Ukraine? Do you call it a genozide of the Chechens in the east, because they had to sent a whole truck of dead fighters back to their homeland in Chechnya? Do you say, it is a genozide of Ukrainians killing Ukrainians?

The situation for the mlitary is very dificult. On the one hand there are self acclaimed leaders sitting inmidst of the towns and on the other hand they have to watch the borders, where fighters from other countries try to cross.

What we read here in this thread is mainly fiction, parroting of Russian propaganda, one sided reports, which often make no sense in themselves. It does not make any sense to add the pro-Ukrainian reports now, because they are also painted with hate and often nothing but rumours.

But what is clear at this point: No matter, what the Ukraine is trying to do, some don't stop to call it a nazi-junta. An interims government? Nazi-junta. An elected president? Nazi-junta. When the new parliament will be elected, we already know: Nazi-junta.

One could think that many are afraid, that this conflict could come to an end.

“They lost their lives because they defended men and women, children and the elderly who found themselves in a situation facing a threat to be killed by invaders and sponsored by them subhumans. First, we will commemorate the heroes by wiping out those who killed them and then by cleaning our land from the evil”, - Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, in response to the downing of a transport aircraft.

Sounds like a Nazi to me. Or is that progressive democracy when national leaders call other people "subhuman" and "evil", and will be "wiped out" and "cleansed from the land".

Source is the website for the Ukrainian embassy in Ukraine. This was a legitimately-made statement.

What do you honestly think of that?

a reply to: Vovin

Here is the original, now it is changed to "fiends".

Five hundred publications in less than three hours. And this is only the beginning. In comments Germans concise definitions of "personality" Yatsenyuk "bastard", "dirty pig", "why the West is silent?"

a reply to: Vovin
I don't like that language from both sides. As I said before, the Ukraine is coming a long way, testing democratic ways for some years now and we saw a politician, who was poisoned and a politician, who was detained for nothing. This causes crazyness, I think. At least Madame Timoshenko shows some symptoms like that.

Still they are in a situation of change. And whatever problems and errors they have and show, no other country can step in, cut off a part of the country, support lawlessness and anarchy and pretend this is al good will. This side surely is not the good side. Anger and frustration is natural in this situation. The foreign minister even called Putin a huilo. Such things happen, but they don't help much.

Anger causes anger. You cannot beat a man and expect that he shows you his other cheak, if he is not Jesus himself. But it seems, behind the curtains, things are slowing down. At least I hope so.

This weak government of the Ukraine has to stand strong against a big country, that used to be the super-power in the eastern part of the world for a long time. That's a very tough job.

a reply to: maghun

Indeed the propaganda here in Germany is very active. Ironically the leftists and the extreme right are going hand in hand on this one. The first are still dreaming of former "communist greatness" and the latter recognize the Putin-government as something very similar to themselves.

Usually we think in left and right as two things on two different sides. But, of course, this is not true. If you always turn left or if you always turn right you finally end up at the same place. This is, where left and right meet each other. We had this in street fightings in the 1920ies, which Vovin thinks, was the time of a good fascism. We had this in Spain, when Franko's nationalists and the Republican communists killed each other. We had it with Hitler and Stalin.
Both sides are so similar sometimes that they even don't see, they wanted to be on different sides.

But all that is just a lot of noice. We need reasonable heads in Ukraine. People don't want war. People don't need war. You cannot stop hate by spreading hate. Start to talk about reasonable solutions. That makes more sense.

originally posted by: Siddharta
a reply to: Vovin
I don't like that language from both sides. As I said before, the Ukraine is coming a long way, testing democratic ways for some years now and we saw a politician, who was poisoned and a politician, who was detained for nothing. This causes crazyness, I think. At least Madame Timoshenko shows some symptoms like that.

Still they are in a situation of change. And whatever problems and errors they have and show, no other country can step in, cut off a part of the country, support lawlessness and anarchy and pretend this is al good will. This side surely is not the good side. Anger and frustration is natural in this situation. The foreign minister even called Putin a huilo. Such things happen, but they don't help much.

Anger causes anger. You cannot beat a man and expect that he shows you his other cheak, if he is not Jesus himself. But it seems, behind the curtains, things are slowing down. At least I hope so.

This weak government of the Ukraine has to stand strong against a big country, that used to be the super-power in the eastern part of the world for a long time. That's a very tough job.

When you talk about a country stepping in a breaking Ukraine up and causing anarchy... Are you talking about the USA? Because here in North America, we are all still trying to figure out why the sovereignty of Ukraine has been somehow placed in the hands of the American government.

For instance, why is the international press going to the US State Department for statements on Ukraine that Ukraine should be making themselves? And why are American "military advisors" rebuilding the Ukrainian army?

originally posted by: Vovin
When you talk about a country stepping in a breaking Ukraine up and causing anarchy... Are you talking about the USA? Because here in North America, we are all still trying to figure out why the sovereignty of Ukraine has been somehow placed in the hands of the American government.

For instance, why is the international press going to the US State Department for statements on Ukraine that Ukraine should be making themselves? And why are American "military advisors" rebuilding the Ukrainian army?

I don't see the USA as angels, but this does not make me blind on the other eye. Of course the USA are playing their games. But we also mustn't get to the point to think that every collaboration, co-work and relationship with other countries is suspicious. Since the USA are de facto the most powerful country on this planet it is at least reasonable to cultivate good relations.

Now for the Ukraine, they are not doing too well for some time. They need strong friends. Many Ukrainians rather want Russia to be that strong friend. But the majority does not. Looking at Putin's Russia it is clear, why modern Ukrainians don't want to be too depandent on Russia again. Free speech ist not Putin's favourite subject. Homosexual people are not welcomed anyways, they are indeed kind of "forbidden" in Russia. The economical system is still second world, the mismanagement of the Party during Soviet times is now the acquisitiveness of the oligarchs. Same as in Ukraine and they don't want it anymore. Paradoxically only those in power can really bring change, so they now have an oligarch for president and hope, change will come.

But back to the USA and their exercise of influence. When the big powers test their strength, they always do it in such indirect ways, because an open conflict would be too expensive and dangerous. While Russia has big troop contingents near the Ukarinian border, while more and more fighters with Russian passports are killed or wounded in action, while the outlaws fight with modern weapons of the Russian army, it is not only fair to show some support to the Ukrainians, but it also is necessary. The western countries are not very convincing with their sanctions against Russia, when Germany signs even more gas deal treaties and France sells them warships at the same time. So at least some little support is needed. Otherwise Putin would go on and on. He is just testing. And Ukraine is not the only state, he has his claws on.

a reply to: Siddharta

The russian propaganda is better than the good old western, or the western can not fool people???

"This was the hand of your president," said the woman, who also was worried about reprisals and would give only her last name of Kravchenkova.

Tell Obama that Ukraine "is not Iraq or Yugoslavia," she said, referring to countries where the U.S. military intervened. "Our children are dying."

USA Today

Odessa was a pre-planned massacre. The position and origin of the mastermind makes him untouchable in today world, that is why interesting if Kolomoisky will survive or not. Today the DNR announced $1 million reward for his head to sell him out to Israel for more money...

In Russia a criminal case was started against Kolomoyskogo and Avakov. They are suspected in murder, prohibited methods of warfare, kidnapping and obstructing the work of journalists.

originally posted by: maghun
The russian propaganda is better than the good old western, or the western can not fool people???

No, I don't think so. Propaganda is always very simple and easily to recognize. But people use to listen to those who tell them what they want to hear.
You want to hear that the government in Kiev is a bloodthirsty Nazi-junta that kills innocent people in the east. So you only listen to the Russian state tv and the weird USA Today, which is quoting the same Russian sources and is quoted by them in respect.

The examiner collected many of those lies and showed the real sources and/or events behind it. I know most of them, because I try to listen to all sides and have seen the accusations and the debunking before.
You surely know some of them, too. The question is, if you also will accept, what they really were about:

Russia’s top 20 lies about Ukraine

and adding 20 more:

Russia’s top 40 lies about Ukraine

They did not mention, that repeating the false reports again and again burries the truth even after it was reported.

But this is the reason why I am still here. I don't want to read any of those false accusations were also confirmed by ATS.

The new UN report covers Odessa and the lies promogated by Russian media on the events in Ukraine in general

www.abovetopsecret.com...