Odessa slaughter: How vicious mob burnt anti-govt activists alive

a reply to: sosobad

Alright Adolf you believe what you want, the fact of the matter is there was a fire started when there was only pro-Kiev supporters around, they are the only people there, do you maybe think they purposefully did not show the actual person because this might be the fire that burnt the building down but at least I am looking for the truth about how those people died whereas you are quite content being a white knight for the neo-Nazis

I see all you have left is the name calling...

No what your looking for is an argument where you get to call names to those who don't agree with your little fantasy of a world dominated by Russia.

See you just do not get it do you...I have never said I back or support anyone, but you have this little agenda where everyone is a Nazi because they don't agree with you.

I have no problem debating this topic, so enough with the childish name calling as it is beginning to show the real you.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: sosobad

Alright Adolf you believe what you want, the fact of the matter is there was a fire started when there was only pro-Kiev supporters around, they are the only people there, do you maybe think they purposefully did not show the actual person because this might be the fire that burnt the building down but at least I am looking for the truth about how those people died whereas you are quite content being a white knight for the neo-Nazis

I see all you have left is the name calling...

No what your looking for is an argument where you get to call names to those who don't agree with your little fantasy of a world dominated by Russia.

See you just do not get it do you...I have never said I back or support anyone, but you have this little agenda where everyone is a Nazi because they don't agree with you.

I have no problem debating this topic, so enough with the childish name calling as it is beginning to show the real you.

I have stated I am anti-Kiev numerous times on ATS not once have I said I am pro Russian, not once but there is no difference between the two to you is there, you are so anti Russian you are going as far as #ting on anything that points to this being pro-Kiev supporters, leaked video tapes of pro-Kiev mayor saying he organized it, fire started on stairs when there was only pro-Kiev supporters there, St George's ribbon on pro-Kiev supporters and you still don't acknowledge any of it, so yes the names are justified. If you are going to be a neo-Nazi apologist you better be ready to be called one yourself.

originally posted by: sosobad

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: sosobad

I see all you have left is the name calling...

No what your looking for is an argument where you get to call names to those who don't agree with your little fantasy of a world dominated by Russia.

See you just do not get it do you...I have never said I back or support anyone, but you have this little agenda where everyone is a Nazi because they don't agree with you.

I have no problem debating this topic, so enough with the childish name calling as it is beginning to show the real you.

I have stated I am anti-Kiev numerous times on ATS not once have I said I am pro Russian, not once but there is no difference between the two to you is there, you are so anti Russian you are going as far as #ting on anything that points to this being pro-Kiev supporters, leaked video tapes of pro-Kiev mayor saying he organized it, fire started on stairs when there was only pro-Kiev supporters there, St George's ribbon on pro-Kiev supporters and you still don't acknowledge any of it, so yes the names are justified. If you are going to be a neo-Nazi apologist you better be ready to be called one yourself.

For most of the Kiev-supporters "anti-Kiev" means the same as "pro-Russian". But this is way off!! I know many Ukrainians (within the Ukraine and abroad), who are against the new "government", but DON´T want to be part of Russia! Some of them even live in Kiev! So "anti-Kiev"/"pro-Kiev" is misleading, too. They should be called "anti-government" or "anti-junta" if you want.

But labeling everyone who is against the new "government" as "pro-Russia" is a sign of ignorance!

a reply to: cm23
So there must have been more than two different groups, because next day somebody hissed a big Russian flag on the building. In the evening it was exchanged against a Ukrainian flag again.

a reply to: Siddharta

Did I say that ALL anti-government Ukrainians are not pro-Russia??? No!! I said that many/most anti-government Ukrainians are not pro-Russia! Sure there are also anti-government Ukrainians who are pro-Russia, but the majority is not or let´s say they don´t care about Russia! But the mood is shifting. They don´t feel safe under this government and tend more and more towards Russia.

originally posted by: sosobad
This is an image of a deceased man that the pro-Kiev supporters said was their own, he is wearing the ribbon of St George, why would a pro-Kiev supporter be wearing a Russian ribbon? They took all his identification and the vest with the ribbon so he could not be identified/detected.

Some thought, they would find Russians in the building. So maybe the statement "He is one of us" simply refers to the nationality. This also was the reason, why they looked for the passports. To identify them, not to blurr their identity.

But there also were looters, who stole things from the people. And also helping people were there. Again I have to say: It was not all black and white.

In your view we had Nazis, who pretended to be anti-Kiev and attacked a big march of Nazis, supported by the Nazi police, killing their own people just with one goal: To go to the anti-Kiev camp, chase innocent protesters in a house and burn them alive. Some even fantasize that there have been even more Nazis in the house before to kill the people and then burn the house to cover it all. To prove this, they always show the most horrifc pictures of the tragedy and everybody is shocked and says: They are bastards. That's how propaganda works.

And this is why an investigation would be needed by independant people. But since the Ukrainians are all Nazi, if they don't fight aganst the interim government, and US and EU are too, who should be part of this investigation? Russia? There is no way out of this dilemma, because nobody trusts anybody. And if the results of the investigation would not fit to the expectations they would be called Nazis too, even if they were Russians.

This is why this discussion makes no sense at all. It is not so much of what really happened in Odessa, but more of the mistrust and hatred against the western countries.

a reply to: Siddharta

If they were so concerned with identifying these people why take their passports and not hand them into the police? They wanted people to believe those that died were Russians and not Ukrainians.


The videos I posted do show that the pro-Kiev supporters where indeed in the building before it got burnt to the ground, why was there lies saying that they weren't, if they are innocent why hide the fact? Afraid of the truth maybe, this was organised by the pro-Kiev mayor, there is a tape were it is said

“Besides, it was he [Kolomoisky] who hired the guys in the Odessa [massacre]… the situation went out of control. Their task was to beat them [anti-government protesters] so they would be taken to hospital and to destroy the camp [on Kulikovo Pole Square] completely,” he said

rt.com...

Why are you ignoring all this?

And yes an independent investigation is needed, but by no one involved in this, China maybe.

Also the phrase that was said was "this is one of ours" not "he is one of us"

a reply to: sosobad

I have stated I am anti-Kiev numerous times on ATS not once have I said I am pro Russian, not once but there is no difference between the two to you is there, you are so anti Russian you are going as far as #ting on anything that points to this being pro-Kiev supporters, leaked video tapes of pro-Kiev mayor saying he organized it, fire started on stairs when there was only pro-Kiev supporters there, St George's ribbon on pro-Kiev supporters and you still don't acknowledge any of it, so yes the names are justified. If you are going to be a neo-Nazi apologist you better be ready to be called one yourself.

Rather than crank up the name calling, let's try a simple test.

True or False:

1) Yanukovych was correct in not signing a trade deal with the EU, even though the majority of Ukrainians were in favor of it.

2) Yanukovych remained the only legal President of Ukraine, even when he was in hiding after fleeing to Russia.

3) It was perfectly legal for Russia to place unmarked troops in the streets of Ukrainian territory.

4) It was perfectly legitimate for Russian troops to use the threat of arms to force Ukrainian regulars to surrender Ukrainian military assets.

5) A ballot that offered a choice of joining Russia but not of independence is perfectly fair.

Well?

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: sosobad

I have stated I am anti-Kiev numerous times on ATS not once have I said I am pro Russian, not once but there is no difference between the two to you is there, you are so anti Russian you are going as far as #ting on anything that points to this being pro-Kiev supporters, leaked video tapes of pro-Kiev mayor saying he organized it, fire started on stairs when there was only pro-Kiev supporters there, St George's ribbon on pro-Kiev supporters and you still don't acknowledge any of it, so yes the names are justified. If you are going to be a neo-Nazi apologist you better be ready to be called one yourself.

Rather than crank up the name calling, let's try a simple test.

True or False:

1) Yanukovych was correct in not signing a trade deal with the EU, even though the majority of Ukrainians were in favor of it.

2) Yanukovych remained the only legal President of Ukraine, even when he was in hiding after fleeing to Russia.

3) It was perfectly legal for Russia to place unmarked troops in the streets of Ukrainian territory.

4) It was perfectly legitimate for Russian troops to use the threat of arms to force Ukrainian regulars to surrender Ukrainian military assets.

5) A ballot that offered a choice of joining Russia but not of independence is perfectly fair.

Well?

What has any of this got to do with what went on in the trade building in Odessa?

a reply to: sosobad

What has any of this got to do with what went on in the trade building in Odessa?

You were taking umbrage at being called "pro-Russian," and threatened to start calling people who support the revolution "Neo-Nazi apologists" Just because someone views the revolutionary government as justified, despite the token presence of extremists, does not make them Nazis. On the other hand, approving of Russian aggression definitely makes someone pro-Russian. Here's your chance to clarify your position.

Just for the record, I am opposed to all of Russia's aggression and deceit, and oppose the fascists in both the Kiyev and Russian camps. Needless to say, the Trade Union arson was a crime against humanity, one so vile that it reeks of false flag.

Edit to correct threatened terminology.

Edit for accuracy.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: sosobad

the Trade Union arson was a crime against humanity, one so vile that it reeks of false flag.

That´s an "interesting" logic... When there´s a very vile crime, it probably is a false flag???

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: sosobad

What has any of this got to do with what went on in the trade building in Odessa?

You were taking umbrage at being called "pro-Russian," and threatened to start calling people who support the revolution "Nazi Supporters" ... But I see you have gone back and edited your post to remove the threat. Just because someone views the revolutionary government as justified, despite the token presence of extremists, does not make them Nazis. On the other hand, approving of Russian aggression definitely makes someone pro-Russian. Here's your chance to clarify your position.

Just for the record, I am opposed to all of Russia's aggression and deceit, and oppose the fascists in both the Kiyev and Russian camps. Needless to say, the Trade Union arson was a crime against humanity, one so vile that it reeks of false flag.

So once again you resort to talking about me rather than the evidence, predictable. Yes this is shown to be organised by the fascists unelected mayor, it was them who organised it, everyone here thinks those friendly neo-Nazis could have never done it essentially defending them when all the evidence says otherwise but you lot don't really care for the truth as long as you get to blame Russia/Putin. Sad that people can be so blinded by hate.

False flag? Evidence? We both know you don't have any now don't we

a reply to: sosobad

So once again you resort to talking about me rather than the evidence, predictable.

And once again you initiate a self serving round of pretending to be objective while using that as a pretext to call others names. You have been given an opportunity, once again, to prove that you are not "pro-Russian," but you evade.

Yes this is shown to be organised by the fascists unelected mayor,

The mayor who achieved his great wealth under Yanukovych, and who was given his new position to secure his loyalty...

it was them who organised it, everyone here thinks those friendly neo-Nazis could have never done it essentially defending them when all the evidence says otherwise

The friendly neo-Nazis who did this were the goons hired by a former Yanukovych crony, possibly augmented by outside pro-Russian saboteurs.

but you lot don't really care for the truth as long as you get to blame Russia/Putin. Sad that people can be so blinded by hate.

That is why I feel sorry for you. You hate "the West" so much you will support a Machiavellian tyrant like Putin.

False flag? Evidence? We both know you don't have any now don't we

Again, the violence only served to make the Kiyev government and the Ukrainian people look bad. This is strong motivation for Russia to arrange the violence, and publicize it through its propaganda organs. Since you have no evidence that some of the violent neo-Fascist monsters were not working for Moscow, there is standoff here when it comes to evidence. But we both know that doesn't matter. All Ukrainians are evil, Putin is their savior, right?

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: sosobad

So once again you resort to talking about me rather than the evidence, predictable.

And once again you initiate a self serving round of pretending to be objective while using that as a pretext to call others names. You have been given an opportunity, once again, to prove that you are not "pro-Russian," but you evade.

Yes this is shown to be organised by the fascists unelected mayor,

The mayor who achieved his great wealth under Yanukovych, and who was given his new position to secure his loyalty...

it was them who organised it, everyone here thinks those friendly neo-Nazis could have never done it essentially defending them when all the evidence says otherwise

The friendly neo-Nazis who did this were the goons hired by a former Yanukovych crony, possibly augmented by outside pro-Russian saboteurs.

but you lot don't really care for the truth as long as you get to blame Russia/Putin. Sad that people can be so blinded by hate.

That is why I feel sorry for you. You hate "the West" so much you will support a Machiavellian tyrant like Putin.

False flag? Evidence? We both know you don't have any now don't we

Again, the violence only served to make the Kiyev government and the Ukrainian people look bad. This is strong motivation for Russia to arrange the violence, and publicize it through its propaganda organs. Since you have no evidence that some of the violent neo-Fascist monsters were not working for Moscow, there is standoff here when it comes to evidence. But we both know that doesn't matter. All Ukrainians are evil, Putin is their savior, right?

No not all Ukrainians are evil, why would you say that when I have been trying to find out the real killers instead of blaming whoever the MSN says and I couldn't give a toss about Putin.

There is no standoff when it comes to evidence because you have provided none, not one piece whereas I have spent time gathering it, so don't try to make out you have some. It all boils down to ignorance of the truth and your abundance of it.

originally posted by: sosobad

“Besides, it was he [Kolomoisky] who hired the guys in the Odessa [massacre]… the situation went out of control. Their task was to beat them [anti-government protesters] so they would be taken to hospital and to destroy the camp [on Kulikovo Pole Square] completely,” he said

rt.com...

Why are you ignoring all this?

I am ignoring this, because even Russia Today wrote: "The official may also be behind the Odessa massacre and Mariupol shootings, the leak adds." Only you make it a proven fact, RT writes "may".
Secondly I don't understand the language and must rely on the translation.
Third point: I don't know the voices and it could be anybody. Again I have to rely on the report.
Forth: The transcript does not say that the name Kolomoisky was used, but the term "he". In brackets they added the name, saying that "he" refers to him. So we have to believe this.
And finally RT writes: "RT could not confirm the veracity of the tapes, and Oleg Tsarev was not available for comment at the time of publication."

So it is not even RT who makes this a proven fact but only you.

The same is true for the video. You point out a scene, where there is a fire on the stairs. We do not see, how it started, we do not see, if this one was the dangerous one that caused the catastrophe, we even don't see, at what time of the events it happened. But what we see is that they bring a woman to the door to get her out.

This fits to the story of a football fan, who was with the pro-Ukrainians. They tried to get in the buidling through the back door. When he realized that the house was burning he wanted to get the women out of there. He also met the communist in the house, who had told the anti-Kiev protesters to hide in the house. The Communist heard someone shout "Don't panic! We are Odessites! We let the women go." But he did not trust them and rather fled and later could get out through a window.
Another witness was a gardener, who had worked in the park that day. Being anti-Kiev he drove to the camp after work, because he had heard of the fightings in town. Only minutes later he found himself trapped in the house. He said he brought furniture from the upper stores to build barricades at the door. When the fire got worse he tried to get on the roof, but could not open the door. Finally he lost consciousness from the smoke. Two guys woke him up later. They took his bag and his two mobiles. One of them asked "Shall we throw him out of the window?" But the other one said No. They brought him downstairs, where he soon was found by the medics.

These and other witness stories are here:
What happened in Odessa? Protocol of an escalation (German)

The story of the gardener solved a riddle. A journo, who was in the house the next day had taken a photo of a pitchfork, wondering why they had this in there. Knowing that the gardener came directly from his work in the park this makes sense.

a reply to: sosobad

No not all Ukrainians are evil, why would you say that when I have been trying to find out the real killers instead of blaming whoever the MSN says and I couldn't give a toss about Putin.

Then why do you consistently refer to the legitimate interim government as "Nazi?" Why are you so resistant to the possibility that the actions of the mob were shaped by outside agents?

There is no standoff when it comes to evidence because you have provided none, not one piece whereas I have spent time gathering it, so don't try to make out you have some. It all boils down to ignorance of the truth and your abundance of it.

But I have provided analysis which proves that the primary beneficiary of the incident is the Russian propaganda machine. Why do you refuse even to acknowledge the possibility that the incident was contrived by the FSB? Is it your blind allegiance to the Russian side of the story?

Edit to add: It is pointless looking for "evidence" on the internet. The only way to investigate this affair is to travel to Odessa and investigate in person. Everything on the web is crafted to create an impression. Everything else is suppressed by one side or another. There are more than just two sides here.

a reply to: DJW001


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