Odessa slaughter: How vicious mob burnt anti-govt activists alive

originally posted by: maddy21
First half of your post is nonsense .. Ultra or Radical they killed Pro Russian protesters in the most Gruesome way . Perception is based on what people do not on what words i used before a sentence

No its not and to state it is shows an alarming lack of knowledge on the topic not to mention an alarming example of just how far you will argue a point into the dirt to try and salvage your opinion.


Please tell me who the people are who started the confrontation.
Please tell me who the people are who started the fire.
Please tell me who the people are who forced the people back into the building.
Please tell me who the people are who forces them to stay in the building as it burnt.
Please tell me who the people are who threw more fire bombs into the building to cause more death.

this is EXACTLY why an investigation needs to be done, properly, and not in the 100 meter rush to judgment by people like you. You are so intent that the people who perpetrated these acts are Ukrainian that you are ignoring logic and process.

The continuation of murder to the people who "supposedly" performed these acts is just as wrong as the people who started the fire. Even more so when its determined the people killed for the attack had nothing to do with the attack itself.

Are you able to live with the thought your rush to judgment mindset resulted in deaths of innocent people who turned up to protest that day and had nothing to do / no intent to engage in a hostile act - on either side?

originally posted by: maddy21
Information from both sides ? whats that ..those Pro Russians in to building decided to burn themselves ? Or maybe the Pro Russian decided to kill Pro Russians for the lolz ? So you attack RT and attack LIfe news and call them non credible and then you claim you want information from both sides ? IS this a bad joke ?

Or the possibility a government was involved that is not Ukraine... Not Russian...
Or the possibility that the acts were incited by people from Ukraine.... From Russia... From other places.


Your lack of common sense when looking at these situations, your quick rush to judgment based on what you are told absent facts is frightening and is a prime example of just how effective propaganda can be when people refuse to take a step back and look at the entire picture instead of acting to the point of killing more people, regardless if they are involved and innocent.

You are exactly what propaganda requires to be effective... I just wish you would set the hatred aside and take a look at that and think about it.

originally posted by: maddy21
Right and attacking me nonstop instead of spending your time looking at live feeds , videos on what actually happened is going to help you ? Whats going on in Ukraine is simple common sense . The only BS i see honestly is in your post which in last couple of minutes have been relentlessly attacking me and when that failed attacked RT and life news and when that failed you are back to attacking me .. You haven't made any relevant posts to the thread except for being in complete Denial

because you lied in the OP and I have called you out on it. You even posted information from a completely different sources. My attacks are on the fact you refuse to admit you lied and mislead, than you intentionally changed the title into something its not solely to support accusations you made that are not supported or even stated in the source you tried to pass off as proof of your lies.

Sorry you got caught... Don't take it out on me if I am overly critical of your posts from this point out. Don't blame me if people stop trusting what you have to say and the sources you use because your hatred coupled with intentional ignorance led you to choose deception and intentional propaganda over facts and due process.

What's worse is people like you can be and are dragged out and killed by your exact , ignorant, close minded counterparts who prefer to act on what you are told to act on instead of acting based on common sense and factual information.

If you cant understand / comprehend that possibility, then I would strongly advise you to refrain from any type of military / revolutionary participation, whether it be on the field or sitting in an office on a computer and pumping out personal opinions that aren't supported by anything other than paranoia, hatred and ignorance and trying to hide those opinions as facts by hiding them behind other sources.

research the Mexican journalist who took on the drug cartels and what happened to her.

simply being an armchair quarterback behind a desk no longer protects people.

RT,yeah no side taking,propaganda spewing from there.Of course acts like this were going to occur.And worse as the country disintegrates into chaos.This could go on a long time and I seriously doubt poor Ukraine will ever be the same.
All because Puty wanted A:the Crimean naval base and or B:to show how bad he/Russia are.

originally posted by: LarryLove
a reply to: Xcathdra

Indeed but be humble enough to accept when you are wrong or have been duped into a particular way of thinking and then form more reasoned, sound ideas. Great post.

A fair point and observation.

I have admitted when I have been wrong

I get irritated when common sense and taking a step back to look at the entire picture is replaced with rush to judgment and believing everything they are told because a life time was spent raising them that Russia or the West are bad entities.

It irritates me when people cant accept the fact that the people of a nation are not necessarily the government of that nation. Aside from a very few dictatorships no government has a 100% support rating from its people and the ones who make that claim are flat out lying.

As for my aggressiveness in this thread I am just done with the intentional misleading and misrepresentation of facts. It occurs way to often and its to the point now where it looks like its being accepted without question. People have made the argument that I don't call out western propaganda -

My question is for them to provide it because to date I have not seen anything in the news except Russia and Ukraine. I am accused yet nothing is ever provided to support the claims, another tactic that is becoming more accepted at alarming rates.

If I am wrong, I am wrong.

that's the way it goes and I accept that.


I just wish others would as well.

a reply to: Xcathdra

All you are writing can be true, but:

According to Article 111, impeachment must follow a specific set of procedures: Parliament must vote to impeach and then convene a committee to investigate. That committee must investigate and report back to parliament, which must then vote to bring charges. A final vote to convict may only come after receipt of a judgment from the Constitutional Court that “the acts, of which the President of Ukraine is accused, contain elements of treason or other crime.” Best I can tell, though, those procedures were not followed in this case. Instead, parliament simply voted—380 to 0, in a body with 450 seats—to dismiss Yanukovych and then to hand executive authority on an interim basis to its own speaker

Parliament votes 328-0 to impeach Yanukovych on Feb. 22

380? 328?

Academic definitions of coups d’etat generally include four criteria:

1) they replace the chief executive;
2) they do not follow constitutional procedure;
3) they are led or facilitated by political insiders; and
4) they involve the use or threat of force.

Sometimes we attach modifiers to signify which political insiders strike the blow—military, palace, parliamentary, or judicial—and the criterion regarding the use or threat of force is often interpreted broadly to include arrest or even credibly menacing statements. When political outsiders topple a ruler, we call it a successful rebellion, not a coup. When political insiders remove a sitting leader by constitutional means, we call it politics.

Ukraine unambiguously satisfies at least a few of these criteria.

a reply to: maghun

The flaw in your response, as well as many others, is you are looking at the Constitutional section for impeachment. You need to read the expedited process of impeachment, which is what was used.

From one of my posts on the Constitutional issue -

The agreement signed by the former President and the parliament, in addition to calling for new elections, immediately reverted back the 2004 Constitution (and by immediate, it means just that. There was no time frame for it and there was no law needed. It became effective once the agreement was signed).

Under the 2004 Constitution, it allowed for impeachment using the existing language as well as a streamlined process, which is the part that people are not familiar with.

Voice of Russia - Constitutional reform may downgrade Yanukovych to figurehead president -

Ukraine’s MPs are due to take up drafts constitutional reform today, the drafts that have been prepared by the Batkivshchina and UDAR party factions. The opposition insists on a return to the constitution of 2004 and on setting limits on presidential powers. Meanwhile, the EU Foreign Ministers are due to meet in Brussels this Monday to discuss the situation in Ukraine. Sweden and Poland will come up with their proposals on changing the stand on Ukraine.


Besides a return to the old constitution, the drafts provide for a simplified system of impeachment and voting, and also deprive the President of any role to play in the Constitutional Court lineup. The opposition feels the Court should be formed by the MPs and a congress of Ukraine’s judges. Unlike the constitution of 2004, which restricted presidential powers, the currently presented draft actually turns Yanukovych into a figurehead President, says the Director of the Institute for Strategic Planning, Alexander Gusev, and elaborates.

“The changes under discussion will largely trim the presidential powers, reducing his function to receiving credentials from foreign Ambassadors. The President’s duties will boil down to representing Ukraine during receptions. He will de facto stop being Head of State, with all powers due to be transferred to Parliament”.

How do we know the 2004 return and simplified impeachment is valid?

Voice of Russia - Ukraine: Yanukovych signs deal on ending crisis, Rada reinstates 2004 Constitution

The following is the text of the agreement signed by Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych and opposition leaders in the presence of EU envoys to end the ex-Soviet country's three-month crisis.

1. Within 48 hours of the signing of this agreement, a special law will be adopted, signed and promulgated, which will restore the Constitution of 2004 including amendments passed until now. Signatories declare their intention to create a coalition and form a national unity government within 10 days thereafter.

2. Constitutional reform, balancing the powers of the President, the government and parliament, will start immediately and be completed in September 2014.

3. Presidential elections will be held as soon as the new Constitution is adopted but no later than December 2014. New electoral laws will be passed and a new Central Election Commission will be formed on the basis of proportionality and in accordance with the OSCE & Venice commission rules.

4. Investigation into recent acts of violence will be conducted under joint monitoring from the authorities, the opposition and the Council of Europe.

5. The authorities will not impose a state of emergency. The authorities and the opposition will refrain from the use of violence.

*** A portion was removed by me as it dealt with actions taken under part 5 - the link has the full text ***

6. The Foreign Ministers of France, Germany, Poland and the Special Representative of the President of the Russian Federation call for an immediate end to all violence and confrontation.

The simplified impeachment process was valid and lawful under the Ukrainian Constitution.

Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych has announced that, to settle the crisis in Ukraine, he will initiate the reinstatement of the 2004 constitution and call early presidential elections. He also called for starting the procedure of forming a government of national confidence. "I am announcing steps that need to be made in order to restore peace and avoid more victims of the standoff," Yanukovych said in a statement available on the presidential website on Friday.

"These tragic days when Ukraine has taken the gravest losses and when people has died my duty is to state that human lives are very important. We should do our best to take joint steps to restore peace in Ukraine," Yanukovych said.

"I declare the steps that should be taken to restore calm and avoid new victims," the Ukrainian president said.

"I state that I initiate early presidential elections and return the 2004 Constitution by redistributing powers from the president to the parliament," Yanukovych said.

Yes the return to the 2004 Constitution was valid / lawful.
Yes the impeachment using the simplified process from the 2004 Constitution was valid / lawful.
The impeachment process followed the law as the bill was introduced by Parliament, and was actually authored by Nikolay Rudkovskiy, head of the Socialist Party in Ukraine, which is part of the ruling Party of Regions coalition. The Party of Regions was the party of former President Yanukovych.

Since people have issues using western sources, the above are all Russian sources. The Constitutional changes were discussed by Russian media in 2010/20/12, noting the changes in how parliament was elected would most likely result in parties coming together to impeach the former President. He had been under investigation for a few years prior to all the mess we have now over corruption charges.

see next post for remainder -

Finally - Library of Congress - Ukraine: Simplified Impeachment Procedures - Link 1
Library of Congress - Ukraine: Simplified Impeachment Procedures - Link 2

(Feb 03, 2009) On January 15, 2009, the Ukrainian legislature, the Verkhovna Rada, adopted the Law on Special Temporary Investigative Commissions, which simplifies the procedure for the legislative body to impeach the President. Previously, the impeachment procedure could be initiated on the basis of a petition signed by three-quarters of the parliamentarians. The new Law provides that the formation of a Special Investigative Commission is the formal beginning of the impeachment process. Such a Commission must be formed upon the request of a simple majority of the Rada's members. The original sponsors of a bill on the creation of a Special Investigative Commission cannot recall their signatures and withdraw the proposed bill. Legal justification and evidential materials must accompany the bill. The Law requires the Commission to finish its investigation within a three-month period, although the first report must be submitted to the Rada no later than at the end of the second month of its work. If the Commission's conclusion is supported by the Rada, the case will be submitted to the Supreme and Constitutional Courts.

A Commission is formed from among Members of the Rada who represent the existing parliamentary factions proportionally, plus a special prosecutor and three special investigators. Members of the Rada can be appointed as the special prosecutor and as the investigators. (Rada Simplified the Impeachment Procedure,GAZETA.RU, Jan. 15, 2009, available at www.gazeta.ru...)

Author: Peter Roudik More by this author

Topic: Legislative power More on this topic

Jurisdiction: Ukraine More about this jurisdiction

Gazeta - Russian-
**The article below was translated using the microsofttranslator program.

Rada has simplified the procedure of impeachment

01/15/2009 19:23 | Ria "Novosti"

The Verkhovna Rada adopted the draft law on the ad hoc investigatory commissions, which simplifies the procedure of impeachment of the President.

The adoption of law 408 Lawmakers voted 226 votes required. In Parliament recently, repeatedly sounded calls for impeachment of President Viktor Yushchenko. To declare impeachment requires the support of three-fourths of the constitutional composition of the Parliament, in which 450 places.

A bill on the special temporary investigative commissions supported 171 of 175 deputies from the party of regions faction, 155 of the 156 deputies from the Yulia Tymoshenko Bloc, 36 of the 72 members of the pro-presidential faction "Our Ukraine-people's Self-Defense bloc, all 27 Communists and 19 of 20 deputies of the faction of the bloc of Lytvyn.

The Bill regulates the legal status and operating procedure of commissions of inquiry for impeachment proceedings.

President Yanukovych has ben under investigation since 2004. The first elections in 2004 were actually thrown out because of corruption on the part of Yanukovych to rig the elections in his favor. A second vote had to be held. He has a number of other investigations that were underway since 2004 including graft and corruption in addition to accusations of circumventing the Ukraine Parliament by engaging in negotiations with national security implications with Russia - twice.

a reply to: Xcathdra

I agree with you but unfortunately it has become dumb and dumber with people running wild with ill informed judgements and no sense of rational thinking. I am willing to give the OP the benefit of doubt if it transpires his thoughts are clouded by emotion because of some personal connection, but I fear you are right and this forum has become a breeding ground for those not able or wanting to think critically. I despair with the 'it's on YouTube so it must be true' generation.

What fairy tale planet are you on. Rt Russian talking bull# channel edited for the dimwits in this world. They spin so much # lately its getting ridiculous . What about the little green cabbage men with balaclava's, on the roof , shooting innocent people below . RT edited all that out because the people of Ukraine have had enough of these little green men thugs with guns on day trips from Russia's armed forces causing deaths,trouble and hatred . What goes around comes around.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Back to the topic!

Why people killing each other? Is it normal to strengthen your opinion with Molotov cocktails? What sides routine is this?

They seemed to leave out the fact that several US officials (Nuland, Ashton etc) encouraged and helped get the Maidan revolt going and that the major provocation (snipers shooting protesters) was orchestrated by certain factions of the Ukrainian revolutionists to garner support.

Basically it is a great big mess with US and EU fingerprints all over it and those parties seem willing to to let many more people die to cover up their lies and save face---politics as usual.

a reply to: maghun

maybe you should learn and understand where Molotov Cocktails originated from and why -

The name "Molotov cocktail" was coined by the Finns during the Winter War.[1] The name is an insulting reference to Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov, who was responsible for the setting of "spheres of interest" in Eastern Europe under the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in August 1939. The pact with the Nazis bearing Molotov's name, which secretly stated the Soviet intention to invade Finland in November 1939, was widely mocked by the Finns, as well as much of the propaganda Molotov produced to accompany it, including his declaration on Soviet state radio that bombing missions over Finland were actually airborne humanitarian food deliveries for their starving neighbours. The Finns, far from starving and engaged in a bitter war for national survival with the Soviet forces, sarcastically dubbed the Soviet cluster bombs "Molotov bread baskets" in reference to Molotov's propaganda broadcasts. When the hand-held bottle firebomb was developed to attack Soviet tanks, the Finns called it the "Molotov cocktail", as "a drink to go with the food".[2] Molotov himself despised the name, particularly as the term became ubiquitous and generalised as Soviets faced increasing numbers of cocktail-throwing protesters in the Eastern Bloc in the years after World War II.[3]

see what happens when we don't learn about history...

It has a history of... blowing up...... in our faces.

Specifically though, to answer your question, it was used by non army units in Finland to defend against Soviet invasion after the Soviets backstabbed the Fins to Nazi Germany.

A rush to judgment could make the a argument the cocktails are being used... appropriately here in this case... but then again I think an investigation should occur to determine who is at fault and hold them accountable under law and not rash judgment by people being led by their emotions.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: maddy21
First half of your post is nonsense .. Ultra or Radical they killed Pro Russian protesters in the most Gruesome way . Perception is based on what people do not on what words i used before a sentence

No its not and to state it is shows an alarming lack of knowledge on the topic not to mention an alarming example of just how far you will argue a point into the dirt to try and salvage your opinion.


Please tell me who the people are who started the confrontation.
Please tell me who the people are who started the fire.
Please tell me who the people are who forced the people back into the building.
Please tell me who the people are who forces them to stay in the building as it burnt.
Please tell me who the people are who threw more fire bombs into the building to cause more death.

this is EXACTLY why an investigation needs to be done, properly, and not in the 100 meter rush to judgment by people like you. You are so intent that the people who perpetrated these acts are Ukrainian that you are ignoring logic and process.

The continuation of murder to the people who "supposedly" performed these acts is just as wrong as the people who started the fire. Even more so when its determined the people killed for the attack had nothing to do with the attack itself.

Are you able to live with the thought your rush to judgment mindset resulted in deaths of innocent people who turned up to protest that day and had nothing to do / no intent to engage in a hostile act - on either side?

originally posted by: maddy21
Information from both sides ? whats that ..those Pro Russians in to building decided to burn themselves ? Or maybe the Pro Russian decided to kill Pro Russians for the lolz ? So you attack RT and attack LIfe news and call them non credible and then you claim you want information from both sides ? IS this a bad joke ?

Or the possibility a government was involved that is not Ukraine... Not Russian...
Or the possibility that the acts were incited by people from Ukraine.... From Russia... From other places.


Your lack of common sense when looking at these situations, your quick rush to judgment based on what you are told absent facts is frightening and is a prime example of just how effective propaganda can be when people refuse to take a step back and look at the entire picture instead of acting to the point of killing more people, regardless if they are involved and innocent.

You are exactly what propaganda requires to be effective... I just wish you would set the hatred aside and take a look at that and think about it.

originally posted by: maddy21
Right and attacking me nonstop instead of spending your time looking at live feeds , videos on what actually happened is going to help you ? Whats going on in Ukraine is simple common sense . The only BS i see honestly is in your post which in last couple of minutes have been relentlessly attacking me and when that failed attacked RT and life news and when that failed you are back to attacking me .. You haven't made any relevant posts to the thread except for being in complete Denial

because you lied in the OP and I have called you out on it. You even posted information from a completely different sources. My attacks are on the fact you refuse to admit you lied and mislead, than you intentionally changed the title into something its not solely to support accusations you made that are not supported or even stated in the source you tried to pass off as proof of your lies.

Sorry you got caught... Don't take it out on me if I am overly critical of your posts from this point out. Don't blame me if people stop trusting what you have to say and the sources you use because your hatred coupled with intentional ignorance led you to choose deception and intentional propaganda over facts and due process.

What's worse is people like you can be and are dragged out and killed by your exact , ignorant, close minded counterparts who prefer to act on what you are told to act on instead of acting based on common sense and factual information.

If you cant understand / comprehend that possibility, then I would strongly advise you to refrain from any type of military / revolutionary participation, whether it be on the field or sitting in an office on a computer and pumping out personal opinions that aren't supported by anything other than paranoia, hatred and ignorance and trying to hide those opinions as facts by hiding them behind other sources.

research the Mexican journalist who took on the drug cartels and what happened to her.

simply being an armchair quarterback behind a desk no longer protects people.

And we are back to square one of personally attacking me calling me a Liar , spreading propaganda so on and so forth. You write so much but with so little content . I told you what happened , i showed you videos , there are even live feeds . All i can see is someone who is extremely emotional making constant attacks on the OP instead of actually discussing the topic at hand ... You have already contradicted yourself so many times and have been asking the same questions which i have already answered . Its your fault for not believing or doing the proper research or coming to the conclusions ...

May i remind you if a person like you would have no faith in RT or what Russians are saying then please tell me why would i have any faith in what Europeans are saying or for their investigation ??

People with a sane mind will go through the information and come to a logical conclusion instead of attacking the OP with a 1000 word post with barely any readable content except the same thing being spewed half a dozen times..

I suggest you calm down and post when you are less aggressive, less emotional and more logical in your views.


You being a very smart troll have successfully diverted the topic from protesters dying to your rather unfortunate personal vendetta ..

originally posted by: maddy21

a reply to: Xcathdra
* - who the people were who started the fire and
* - what connection they have to NEO Nazis?
* - explain how anti Kiev forces got involved.
* - Then go one further and explain who started the violence? -

*Ukrainian Ultra Nationalists and Maiden supports as per the RT and Life news sources i posted earlier
*Only Neo Nazis in Ukraine has been known to burn down buildings as seen in Kiev and now seen in Odessa , and only Neo Nazis would really cultivate so much hate for Russians to actually burn them ...
* Pro Russians protesters were in the building ??
* Started by the people who brought the Molotov Cocktail draped in Ukrainian flag ?


First off my apologies for the delayed response. The new quoting system seems to be a bit wonky and the more quote/response/quotes are present, it has a tendency to not show the post at all. In this case only after I quoted the post, which showed as blank to me prior, did your response appear.

* - The RT article never stated Neo Nazis - You did.
* - Actually Pro Russian forces have also been show to light buildings on fire, so again your claim is blatantly false.
* - Pro Russian protestors were in the building. According to your own sources so were Pro Kiev sources.
* - Again, if people show up with Russian or Nazi flags around the Molotov cocktails (and the historical irony, while most likely lost on people, is priceless) are we to assume they are in fact Russian nations and Nazi Germany nationals?

You have failed to answer any of my questions. You continue to obfuscate and offer half ass personal opinions while ignoring the very fact that nothing you claimed in the OP is supported by your sources.

a reply to: LarryLove

I don't have any personal connection nor am i emotional considering the folks here making personal attacks on me...
Its unfortunate ATS has come to "My way or the highway" . If you don't think like i do then you are a retard kind of mentality of certain folks here..

Might i suggest you refrain from making personal remarks and stick to the topic at hand..

a reply to: maddy21

Yes.. you lied in your op.
Yes... you could not support your claims in the op.
Yes... you tried to back pedal and still could not support your claims.
Yes... you are doing all you can now to distract from the fact you lied, got caught, and instead of admitting you made a mistake based on some attachment to the situation, which by the way is actually acceptable, you continue to deny you lied, deny you got caught, deny the source you used did not support your claims in the least and only after getting caught, you tried to obfuscate by ignoring the original questions you could not answer or support.

So, what exactly is your problem now?

What do you want to discuss since your op is blatantly false?

I don't think you ever answered the question about an independent investigation being held. Is that something you would support and if so / not why?

a reply to: maddy21

You do have to explain why you changed the headline and added 'neo Nazis' to the posting mix. That in itself is propaganda and you can't really go about changing 'news' articles to suit your own narrative.

Edit: when posting on ATS you have to expect what you write will be subjected to scrutiny. If what has been written contains flaws or is simply untrue then you must be humble enough to say you are wrong and stand corrected. Everyone is guilty of emotionally fuelled threads, altering 'facts' to support your own judgements is plain wrong.

Pot

originally posted by: maddy21
a reply to: LarryLove

If you don't think like i do then you are a retard kind of mentality of certain folks here..

meet....


Kettle

originally posted by: [post=17880468]maddy21[/post
Might i suggest you refrain from making personal remarks and stick to the topic at hand..

Do you support an independent investigation into the incident and if so / if not - why?
Do you maintain your post was not a blatant lie / attempt at propaganda?
Do you maintain your posted source supports what you stated?

If these actions are not supported by you, then why do you engage in them?

a reply to: Xcathdra

Investigation? Like about Maidan shooting?

Deputy Pashinsky with sniper rifle

Activists of euromaidan searched car of deputy Pashinsky ("Пашинский", member of the "Fatherland"/"Батькивщина"), he showed that it was in his car and drove away. People have asked what kind of maschina where you are going.

March 25. Sergey Pashinsky appointed acting head of the presidential administration.

The ukrainians started the investigation in Odessa, they arrested at about 130 protesters, mainly pro-russians... Maybe they are guilty in irritating football hooligans making their everyday walking with flags and cocktails?

originally posted by: Xcathdra

* - The RT article never stated Neo Nazis - You did.
* - Actually Pro Russian forces have also been show to light buildings on fire, so again your claim is blatantly false.
* - Pro Russian protestors were in the building. According to your own sources so were Pro Kiev sources.
* - Again, if people show up with Russian or Nazi flags around the Molotov cocktails (and the historical irony, while most likely lost on people, is priceless) are we to assume they are in fact Russian nations and Nazi Germany nationals?

You have failed to answer any of my questions. You continue to obfuscate and offer half ass personal opinions while ignoring the very fact that nothing you claimed in the OP is supported by your sources.

- Yes i did , am willing to give benefit of the Doubt that Ukrainian Nationalists would not kill Pro Russian protesters i.e their own citizens , I cunlcuded that only Neo nazi's have the history and the hatred to actually do something that grusome...

- Pro Russian protesters are the ones who died here so they would not kill their own people ..

- Yes, considering from RT and life news we heard that its nationalists which started the fire and from the photo you can see molatov cocktains drape din Ukrainian flag only gives it more credibility

a reply to: maghun

Yes like the Maiden shootings -

Section 4 of the agreement signed by Yanukovych -

4. Investigation into recent acts of violence will be conducted under joint monitoring from the authorities, the opposition and the Council of Europe.

Hard to do when Russia invades yes?

Of course, we have a second incident in Odessa where an independent investigation is also being pushed and again we seem to have kick back from Pro Russians on that possibility.

makes one wonder doesn't it... in both instances as to what might actually be found by an independent investigation.

If the Pro Russian supporters are so sure of their position, then an investigation should be welcomed.

As for the rest the Pro Russian supporters are the ones who incited violence by attacking Pro Kiev supporters.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

Do you support an independent investigation into the incident and if so / if not - why?
Do you maintain your post was not a blatant lie / attempt at propaganda?
Do you maintain your posted source supports what you stated?

If these actions are not supported by you, then why do you engage in them?

looks like your habit of personal attacks won't stop or you have comprehension problems with reading basic English ..

- An independent investigation done by someone outside Russia, America and Europe
- No i don't , just because i disagree with your views does not make mine a propaganda
- Yes it does only if you are willing to use common sense and look at what has been going on in Ukraine historically for past couple of months