sin and be popular, or be good and alone?

I find myself in a situation where this seems to be my choice. Either become lower spiritually and get friends, become liked by people OR try to be pure and spiritual and find yourself rejected and alone.

I did meet some religious people but I didn't particularly like them or their meetings, for some reason. I felt that I wanted to keep being a seeker instead. I kept being a seeker but found that I also wanted to have friends, so I ended up trying to be more like my workmates, started drinking alcohol etc. I feel like my vibration has been lowered so I'm seriously contemplating being a loner instead.

It's a tough choice when you see the workmates going out together, even making plans to travel together. And as I said, I didn't particularly resonate with the religious people.

I also feel like some of my workmates I really don't understand. It feels like no matter what I do it's wrong in their eyes. When I didn't drink alcohol one guy jokingly said I should come with him and be a sinner instead, kind of (between the lines). And he seemed to have a grudge towards me for being purer. Then when I started drinking alcohol he seemed to dislike the whole situation of alcohol drinking, as if he considers himself above it, purer, and kind of frowns at the whole thing. And speaks well of some people who don't drink.

One side of me doesn't want to be alone, wants to have friends (but not those religious people I met, just didn't feel right for some reason), and therefore necessarily be more like my workmates.

Another side of me wants to reject any offers to hang out if it contains alcohol, discos, bars, chatting to girls etc. and go back to being a loner like I've been almost always in my life.

What to do?

Fuk this world and the people in it.

Also, has anyone had a similar problem? And do you think this is a general rule in life, that you have to be a low vibration to be popular, and that the purer and the more spiritual you are the more alone you are?

a reply to: introspectionist

Your post really resonates with me! This has been a problem for me all my adult life (well, even as a teenager too.) I constantly found myself having to make larger compromises and concessions just to blend in and get along with others.

And you know what? As I became less like myself to appease others, I also realized those "friendships" don't work for very long; they don't go very deep. "Sinning" has never made me very popular anyway. I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

I don't really have any advice because I still have a tremendously difficult time making friends who I can see eye-to-eye with. At this point, I am just doing my best to deal with the loneliness. I will no longer give up who I am just to try to please someone who doesn't accept me either way.

I will watch this thread to see if we both can't get some good advice here. Best of luck to you.

a reply to: introspectionist

Hi.

Maybe...maybe...if you didn't think in terms of 'good' vs 'sinful' it might be easier. Things seem like an either/or choice to you right now. So, you're wondering if either the 'religious' group or the work group is the right way to go, but maybe neither is 'right'. Maybe bits of both those groups are fine, but not in their entirety. Maybe some of the people in the religious group are nice and some of the work people are nice? Some religious people are awful -no doubt about it. There are Scottish ministers I've met who are the most God-awful people you could ever meet! And some work mates are awful, too. But not all of them, all of the time.
Do you know what I mean? It seems like the either/or, good/sinful dichotomy isn't helpful because if you're not one then you must be the other. Is there somewhere in the middle of that scale you could feel comfortable? Like 'quite good', or 'good enough'?

It might also be an idea to try and find a third, or fourth group to meet. Maybe join an evening class, try something new. Life doesn't have to be either/or - it can be more like patchwork, with different 'bits' to it.
I spoke to you briefly in another one of your threads, and it seems like you're good at giving yourself a hard time for not being perfect. You're good enough!! You don't have to try be perfect, because you never will be, none of us will. We're just human, trying to do the best we can at any given moment.
Life is short, try to embrace it and find things that make you happy.

"Sin and be popular, or be good and alone?"

I have a few friends who were the latter (in younger times), and wish they had been the former. I tell them I wish I had been the latter.

Bad attracts bad. Good attracts good, and you will only be alone when you choose to be so.

a reply to: introspectionist

S&F!

Also, has anyone had a similar problem? And do you think this is a general rule in life, that you have to be a low vibration to be popular, and that the purer and the more spiritual you are the more alone you are? - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

1] It is more a challenge than a problem! The challenge being just how selfish one is in ones drive to become God whilst not giving into either ego or fear and hence distorting the outcome.

2] As a general rule yes ... but being alone is far different from being lonely because one has ones connection directly to the source!

One of the most liberating discoveries I made in life was that I should be the one to choose my own friends instead of trying to fit into some mold made by someone else. We cannot be close friends with everyone, nor would we want to be. I also learned that one never stops searching because as we learn we look to refine our search.

Being true to oneself is important so we can maintain our integrity. My basic rule is to cling to what is right and leave the wrong alone.

a reply to: introspectionist

Listen...

First of all, purity has nothing to do with whether or not you drink alcohol. There have been some deeply impure souls who have walked the skin of the Earth, who were teetotal, some near militantly so. What you choose to do with your organs is your own affair of course, but do not fool yourself into thinking it has any particular bearing on matters pertaining to your soul!

Also, I understand entirely what you mean about not wanting to go to clubs and packed bars. Myself, I hate when I walk into a bar, and it is filled to the gunnels with strutting males, and dolled up females, all eyeing one another up, as if they were examining produce for sale. I like to drink, and have a pleasant chat with friends when in a bar. If all the males and females in the bar however, are in the midst of some thinly veiled mating dance, each making as much noise as possible in an attempt to get noticed, then it negates the genteel aspect of patronage of a public house in my opinion.

originally posted by: introspectionist


One side of me doesn't want to be alone, wants to have friends (but not those religious people I met, just didn't feel right for some reason), and therefore necessarily be more like my workmates.

Another side of me wants to reject any offers to hang out if it contains alcohol, discos, bars, chatting to girls etc. and go back to being a loner like I've been almost always in my life.

What to do?

Fuk this world and the people in it.

Also, has anyone had a similar problem? And do you think this is a general rule in life, that you have to be a low vibration to be popular, and that the purer and the more spiritual you are the more alone you are?

You're presenting a false choice here really. There isn't anything inherently sinful about alcohol, discos, bars, and chatting to girls etc. If it weren't for those activities the world would be a good deal less populated. By nature people are social animals these activities are an expression of that. There are different degrees of social bonding and with your colleagues at work, it tends to be a good thing to spend some time outside of work doing activities with them. You may not like it or even be particularly good at it, but when when promotion time rolls around it becomes a factor whether or not you even attempt to be social with them.

As to the rest of the time, it sounds to me you just haven't found the social activity you yourself enjoy doing. Right now you seem to equate loneliness and being anti-social to some kind of spiritual enlightenment. To me it would seem to be the opposite in reality. I would have to seriously question anyone that claimed to be spiritually "enlightened" that was walking around looking like the Supreme Lord of Doom and Gloom.

The key to any social interaction is to be yourself. If you're at the bar after work with your colleagues and don't want to drink then order a soda. If anyone says anything usually a simple "it's just not my thing" will suffice. You may or may not get the person that is hellbent on getting you to act otherwise but normally they are the exception and not usually the rule.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: introspectionist

Listen...

First of all, purity has nothing to do with whether or not you drink alcohol. There have been some deeply impure souls who have walked the skin of the Earth, who were teetotal, some near militantly so. What you choose to do with your organs is your own affair of course, but do not fool yourself into thinking it has any particular bearing on matters pertaining to your soul!

Also, I understand entirely what you mean about not wanting to go to clubs and packed bars. Myself, I hate when I walk into a bar, and it is filled to the gunnels with strutting males, and dolled up females, all eyeing one another up, as if they were examining produce for sale. I like to drink, and have a pleasant chat with friends when in a bar. If all the males and females in the bar however, are in the midst of some thinly veiled mating dance, each making as much noise as possible in an attempt to get noticed, then it negates the genteel aspect of patronage of a public house in my opinion.

Interesting. I listened to a talk by a rabbi who said that alcohol was not only permissible to Jews, but mandatory or advisable, or something like that. I have been wondering why alcohol is forbidden to Muslims, but permissible to Jews.

I don't find any issue of being alone. Actually I don't see being alone... as being alone. I am never alone. Schizos are Never Alone.

originally posted by: KeliOnyx

originally posted by: introspectionist


One side of me doesn't want to be alone, wants to have friends (but not those religious people I met, just didn't feel right for some reason), and therefore necessarily be more like my workmates.

Another side of me wants to reject any offers to hang out if it contains alcohol, discos, bars, chatting to girls etc. and go back to being a loner like I've been almost always in my life.

What to do?

Fuk this world and the people in it.

Also, has anyone had a similar problem? And do you think this is a general rule in life, that you have to be a low vibration to be popular, and that the purer and the more spiritual you are the more alone you are?

You're presenting a false choice here really. There isn't anything inherently sinful about alcohol, discos, bars, and chatting to girls etc. If it weren't for those activities the world would be a good deal less populated. By nature people are social animals these activities are an expression of that. There are different degrees of social bonding and with your colleagues at work, it tends to be a good thing to spend some time outside of work doing activities with them. You may not like it or even be particularly good at it, but when when promotion time rolls around it becomes a factor whether or not you even attempt to be social with them.

As to the rest of the time, it sounds to me you just haven't found the social activity you yourself enjoy doing. Right now you seem to equate loneliness and being anti-social to some kind of spiritual enlightenment. To me it would seem to be the opposite in reality. I would have to seriously question anyone that claimed to be spiritually "enlightened" that was walking around looking like the Supreme Lord of Doom and Gloom.

The key to any social interaction is to be yourself. If your at the bar after work with your colleagues and don't want to drink then order a soda. If anyone says anything usually a simple "it's just not my thing" will suffice. You may or may not get the person that is hellbent on getting you to act otherwise but normally they are the exception and not usually the rule.

Interesting. Like most people on this forum I have been thinking a lot about spirituality and the world. One thing in particular I have been thinking a lot about is the relationship between evil and enlightenment. Why for example is there a link between madness and genius?

www.telegraph.co.uk...

www.telegraph.co.uk...

Asperger's and creativity are two sides of the same coin - you can't get one without the other

My psychiatrist said he thought I had Asperger's but I quit instead of having it examined properly. I've always been a failure, a reject and a loner. So the situation in the OP is somewhat new to me I guess, even though I'm almost 30.

I have also been thinking about esoteric vs exoteric religion, and appealing to the masses. I think there might actually be something to my feelings. And that it might be possible to extrapolate my personal problem to a societal scale and look at the esoteric vs exoteric and see that either you appeal to more people and have less substance, or conversely you appeal to fewer but have more substance. The more friends the shallower person seems to be the general rule. The hermits seem to be the deepest. I'm a hermit on a recent venture into social land.

This is something I've been discussing on various forums and philosophizing about lately. For example I've been thinking about Jews and the movie the Matrix. In this context I can mention here some things. Why have Jews, God's chosen people, always been outsiders, somewhat similar to a person with Asperger's? And look at Neo in the Matrix. To me the situation in the OP would be something like either Neo chooses to be alienated while in the matrix OR he chooses to appeal to the agents and blend in with them. Does Neo want to keep remembering that he has seen through the matrix or does he want to go back to being like everyone else in the matrix.

www.youtube.com...

Does Neo want to believe in his boss, or does he want to believe in higher truths? (Trinity, Morpheus) So yes I do think that there actually might be such a dichotomy, and that it's not a false one. But I might be wrong.

As for clubs and similar things, this scene seems appropriate.

www.youtube.com...

And especially look at the guy at 0:16 (here: youtu.be...) The embodiment of the extrovert personality? Neo on the other hand, alone, neurotic, in the corner, what is he doing? He's not chatting to girls, but he's communicating with "Trinity".

A case of:

www.youtube.com...

?

when promotion time rolls around it becomes a factor whether or not you even attempt to be social with them.

There isn't much promotion to be had in my job. But there is still somewhat of the same issue. Do I want to keep the job or do I want to eventually be discarded. So yeah, that's part of what I'm referring to I guess. Interestingly I recently listened to a lecture from gnosticteachings.org where they said that when your Gnostic practice is beginning to really work you will find yourself in social problems, might lose your job etc. And that that is when a lot of people drop out and say these teachings are no good. But he said that's proof it's actually working and that you're being initiated into the mysteries.

An interesting quote from wikipedia:

Socrates's idea that reality is unavailable to those who use their senses is what puts him at odds with the common man, and with common sense. Socrates says that he who sees with his eyes is blind

source: en.wikipedia.org...

It almost sounds like that dichotomy is in there: have vision and then be at odds with "the common man"

Gnosticism (from gnostikos, "learned", from Ancient Greek: γνῶσις gnōsis, knowledge) describes a collection of ancient religions that taught that people should shun the material world created by the demiurge and embrace the spiritual world.[1] Gnostic ideas influenced many ancient religions[2] that teach that gnosis (variously interpreted as knowledge, enlightenment, salvation, emancipation or 'oneness with God') may be reached by practicing philanthropy to the point of personal poverty, sexual abstinence (as far as possible for hearers, completely for initiates) and diligently searching for wisdom by helping others.[3] However, practices varied among those who were Gnostic.

source:en.wikipedia.org...

The interesting part is "sexual abstinence (as far as possible for hearers, completely for initiates)" That seems to go hand in hand with a lot of what I'm thinking about. As for the helping others I'm not quite sure what that is. But when I'm at a bar it feels more like people are into the mode of the sexual than the helping... I have been contemplating being a hermit for the rest of my life, but the thought of being poor and alone when I'm old frightens me. But I've always sucked at the social things so maybe I'll be alone in any case.

a reply to: introspectionist
I would simply say !Do what makes you happiest inside"

Now you could 'sin' and become very popular but inside I think it would eat you up.. it's just not you.

I've been in a similar spiritual battle inside too, I'm fed up of being the nice guy, it gets me nowhere and people take advantage BUT you know what?

I like being nice, so that's what I will continue to do.

I have also been thinking about esoteric vs exoteric religion, and appealing to the masses. I think there might actually be something to my feelings. And that it might be possible to extrapolate my personal problem to a societal scale and look at the esoteric vs exoteric and see that either you appeal to more people and have less substance, or conversely you appeal to fewer but have more substance. The more friends the shallower person seems to be the general rule. The hermits seem to be the deepest. I'm a hermit on a recent venture into social land.

This is something I've been discussing on various forums and philosophizing about lately. For example I've been thinking about Jews and the movie the Matrix. In this context I can mention here some things. Why have Jews, God's chosen people, always been outsiders, somewhat similar to a person with Asperger's? And look at Neo in the Matrix. To me the situation in the OP would be something like either Neo chooses to be alienated while in the matrix OR he chooses to appeal to the agents and blend in with them. Does Neo want to keep remembering that he has seen through the matrix or does he want to go back to being like everyone else in the matrix.

I couldn't edit my post for some reason. But I wanted to add that the situation above, which is the situation in the OP, might be what Morpheus refers to when he says "You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes." I.e. the introvert path vs the extrovert path. Either you appeal to the agents and close yourself off from Trinity and Morpheus OR you choose Trinity and Morpheus and find yourself increasingly alienated from the matrix. In this context it is interesting that I have felt that a lot of exoteric religion is actually for people who are still stuck in the matrix, have not become Neo, are extroverts. But I might be wrong.

a reply to: introspectionist

I have been in a very similar situation from highschool on into my late 20's. At that point I just stepped away from everyone else's expectation and started doing what I wanted.

Some people are painted as unknowing sinners simply because they have a different set of beliefs than those that are doing the judging. Most of the time this stems from religion, which can vary from Christianity, Muslim, Athiest, Shamans the list goes on and on. Now throw in geographic location and beliefs that are imposed by the people who live in that specific area. What goes in New York City most certainly can be frowned upon by a modest midwestern town. Then you can throw in age groups, and suddenly you find that you cannot live up to everyone elses standard, you have to define your own and live accordingly. Once you stop judging and allowing yourself to be judged things will really open up and you will feel a weight lifted. Family, friends, co-workers are still going to judge you, but in finding out what you like and what makes you feel good you will make new friends and family to replace the old. Be open minded but not blinded.

a reply to: introspectionist

As an introverted person myself, I can understand a lot of what you are saying. Social activities are going to be difficult for you. Hell after all these years they still are at times for me. But I have never resorted to thinking I am more enlightened than extroverted people. For my primary social group despite being the odd girl, I am the one recognized as the glue that holds it together. The big thing I have learned is that despite your internal anxieties and fears people are pretty accepting once you help them understand how it is you work. Now I am just upfront about it when I meet people. It's all about balancing yourself to where you are comfortable.

Personally I have never been a heavy drinker, but there are times when I feel like going out and having a few with my friends. There are also times I don't necessarily want to but do so as an investment in developing personal and professional relationships. It's all up to you and understanding why you are doing a given activity. Other times I just need to be left alone. A fact that almost cost me my marriage because he didn't really understand it and I was afraid to explain it to him. But really it is all about what makes you happy and finding social activities that revolve around that. When you are doing something you enjoy and are happy is when you are more likely to attract people you will be more comfortable socializing with.

The only other advice I can give is, don't be afraid to occasionally let yourself get pulled from your comfort zone. It is good to try new things and you may just surprise yourself. You may have an introverted personality and you will probably always feel a bit like an outsider in social situations. But that does not mean you have to be alone, miserable and unsuccessful in life. And you may get lucky and find that special extrovert that can just draw that social behavior out of you without even trying.

"They say your beautiful and they'll always let you in. But doors are never open to a child without a trace of sin"

RJD

a reply to: introspectionist

I gave up caring what people thought about me a long time ago and it was quite liberating. Trying to "fit in" was causing so much unnecessary anxiety . Yes, I've lost friends because of it, they weren't my real friends in the first place. My circle of friends is much smaller but it's more fulfilling. Be true to yourself and people will be drawn to you.

a reply to: introspectionist

Walk the middle path.

Just because you do bad things every now and then doesn't make you bad. Just because you do good things now and then doesn't make you good.

However in the end it'll work best to spend time with both groups. You may find you can't have one without the other.

originally posted by: KeliOnyx
I have never resorted to thinking I am more enlightened than extroverted people.

I wish I would have done that a long time ago. There's knowing who you are, and then there's knowing who you are and being a jerk about it. I was a jerk because I got to thinking I was better than others. It's a good way to distance yourself from others you don't fit in with, but it's a bad way to find a new circle of friends.

Anyway, I've found that you have to be comfortable in your own skin. If you're not, people are not going to be comfortable with you and even introverts need friends.

originally posted by: DeepImpactX

originally posted by: KeliOnyx
I have never resorted to thinking I am more enlightened than extroverted people.

I wish I would have done that a long time ago. There's knowing who you are, and then there's knowing who you are and being a jerk about it. I was a jerk because I got to thinking I was better than others. It's a good way to distance yourself from others you don't fit in with, but it's a bad way to find a new circle of friends.

Anyway, I've found that you have to be comfortable in your own skin. If you're not, people are not going to be comfortable with you and even introverts need friends.

So I was a jerk. Some people are more evolved spiritually than others. Denying it is to be like those militant feminists that want quotas for women. Or to be like a Muslim that hates Jews, etc. I don't tell my workmates or others that I feel I'm more spiritual than them, or more evolved than them when I do. But yeah, I believe some people "stand on the shoulders" of others spiritually. As for KeliOnyx she might mean well in her communication to me but what I feel is that she's coming from a very "neurotypical" frame of reference, interpret that however you want.

As for my workmates and hanging out with them it seems like nature has that sorted out for me. Just checked my facebook and they put up pictures of almost all of my workmates out at some disco or drinking or whatever. No one called me... This is something I'll meditate upon, try to view in the light of "rejection is a blessing" that I have mentioned, and Satan is Lucifer the light bearer or whatever. I view it as a blessing. Most of the time I'm around these people I feel like Israel surrounded by "the nations" or Arab nations if you will, like Neo surrounded by agents. Yeah this is me, aspie probably. A lot of people probably view me as a jerk, but I feel blessed and chosen. When I've read about Kabbalah it says that gentiles hate Jews/Israel because they feel subconsciously that Jews/Israel are of a higher consciousness. I've been wondering if I am what Michael Laitman calls "a spiritual Jew" or what I guess some call starseed and similar terms.

neurotypicals/gentiles/the nations/externality/extroverts etc.:





aspie/Jew/Israel/internality/introvert/starseed etc.:



Of course if I voice these thoughts some people will be offended and think I'm arrogant, a jerk etc. How are those reactions any different from how "the nations" behave towards Israel? They talk about this in Kabbalah. For example Michael Laitman talks about it. Not gonna waste your time with a bunch of links. Google Kabbalah, Israel, the nations, antisemitism, internality, externality etc. If it is "as above so below" then how do I know that it's not so that the geographical Israel is a mirror of myself, another plane of creation or whatever? I view any negative attitudes towards myself by others as a blessing because it is that Lucifer, light bearer. "Hell is other people" If someone is annoyed you must be doing something right...

There's a subtle difference between viewing the people in your outer world as fighting you vs as helping you.