NATO official: Russia now an adversary

originally posted by: ColCurious

originally posted by: Rocker2013
I'm disappointed that our own countries have so many ghosts able to come back to haunt us, but this really doesn't change who is in the wrong and who needs to be stopped in this instance.

I agree, and it hurts me that there is no force of legal and moral integrity left in this world that I could get behind.
We messed up. We let this happen, and we have to make this right somehow.
Thing is... time is running out, and many people are not even there yet.

I tend to look at it this way; we could all go back through recent and ancient history to sling mud about who is and was right or wrong at any given time, but this doesn't solve anything. While it does influence my level of trust and credibility in my own government and the US, it doesn't make this event any more right or any less dangerous.

Should we have not gone to war to stop Hitler because Britain had an Imperialist past? If Russia invaded Poland tomorrow, should we all just say "well, the US did invade Iraq"?

It makes no sense to me, no matter how much I loathed numerous previous military moves. I think we agree that although previous actions by our own countries leave us with a bitter taste in our mouths, we know when something is blatantly wrong, and I think most probably agree that there are some times when we should act, regardless of being discredited by past actions.

originally posted by: Rocker2013
I tend to look at it this way; we could all go back through recent and ancient history to sling mud about who is and was right or wrong at any given time, but this doesn't solve anything.

How could I disagree, I'm German.

originally posted by: Rocker2013
Should we have not gone to war to stop Hitler because Britain had an Imperialist past? If Russia invaded Poland tomorrow, should we all just say "well, the US did invade Iraq"?

Of course not. The crux is, other nations can argue like that now, and they do.
Like Putin did with Crimea (= Kosovo), or like the French currently in the Central African Republic (= Iraq).
Wait until China jumps on the bus...
Fact is, we cannot convince anyone by diplomatic appeal to respect the souvereignty and national integrity of other nations anymore, and if we can't set this right, then all that remains is force, and if that is the case - our species is done sooner or later.

originally posted by: Rocker2013
I think we agree that although previous actions by our own countries leave us with a bitter taste in our mouths, we know when something is blatantly wrong, and I think most probably agree that there are some times when we should act, regardless of being discredited by past actions.

I'm not sure about that.
What makes you think that Putin is more reasonable and cares about our disapproval?
Our leaders didn't care about his... they thought they were in the right, and so does Putin now.
The least thing we can and MUST do, is stop the ongoing violations of international law on our part RIGHT NOW, if we want to regain any credibility. We HAVE TO regain our legal and moral integrity.

One more thing that prevents me from getting behind NATO is that our leaders are nowhere near admitting their wrongdoings, and if we gather behind them now (as the lesser evil so to speak), they will interpret this as our approval... and just "kerry" on with their own agendas.

What say you? I'm curious.

a reply to: benrl

Crazy? Maybe. Equally crazy to ignore the possibility as well though..(Love the psychotropic thread.)

a reply to: xuenchen

I will admit outside pot-stirring but you leave out the fact that that region has an unending history of scraps, wars, border changes.

Poles, Ukes, Tartars, Russians.....centuries of distrust and mutual conflict.

It is definitely NOT a peaceful region sans "bankers". The average Ukrainian wants nothing to do with Russia and hasn't well before Communism and the Soviet Union.

Russian involvement is undeniable, Western influence is now pointing towards Soros rather than "bankers"...

a reply to: ThinkYouSpeak

My answer is an empathic NO. Even this U.S, gov't, corrupt as it is, isn't expanding it's borders as Putin has with Georgia, then Crimea and now eastern Ukraine.

It's not even close.

As a matter of fact, it could be argued that if the U.S. had maintained it's previous European military levels-now down to 60,000 boots on the ground and zero tanks-and the Ukraine had kept it's nuclear arsenal- I.E. cold war mentality- this wouldn't be happening at all......

If i was Putin i would go,
Tehran
cut across too
Syria
then too
Istanbul

then close all the Borders.

but thats just me.

a reply to: BobAthome

Hmmm, good idea! Maybe we can pay him to do it......