NATO official: Russia now an adversary

a reply to: benrl

originally posted by: benrl
Is it crazy to anyone else that we are returning to the Cold War stances?

By "we" I'm assuming that you're referring to the handful of elitists who run the globe.

Because me, you and 99.9% of people have little or no say in what they do.

I'll go ahead and state the obvious: NATO, the "West" (US, UK etc.) have zero credibility.

• The US occupies 100+ foreign nations with their military bases.
  
• They have a well established history of overthrowing democratically elected governments and installing pro-Western dictators.
  
• They are waging a "drone war" on multiple nations resulting in the deaths of thousands of innocent men, women and children.
  
• They are now waging pre-emptive, lie based wars of aggression against nations who pose little or no threat.

Did Russia bomb the Ukraine for weeks and then send in an invasion and occupation force?

NO.

If we had a free press (not an establishment mouthpiece), they would be pointing this out EVERY SINGLE DAY.

originally posted by: gladtobehere
I'll go ahead and state the obvious: NATO, the "West" (US, UK etc.) have zero credibility.

• The US occupies 100+ foreign nations with their military bases.
  
• They have a well established history of overthrowing democratically elected governments and installing pro-Western dictators.
  
• They are waging a "drone war" on multiple nations resulting in the deaths of thousands of innocent men, women and children.
  
• They are now waging pre-emptive, lie based wars of aggression against nations who pose little or no threat.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you stated, and there is only one summarizing point to add, which makes all this much worse.

"We" (including "you"; aka NATO, the EU, and the US) have violated international law throughout (at least) the last two decades.
The dangerous problem with this is: by violation of international law (by habitual law) we actually alter the applicable international law. "We" are thereby undermining the legal framework that was established after WWII for very, VERY good reasons.

Precedents and practice.

Fasten your seat belts, Ladies and Gentlemen... because we're heading towards the era of consequences, following the age of precedents... and it's going to be a rough ride.

originally posted by: benrl
Gone are Leaders like Reagan and Gorbachev, seems like we are blundering into a war with Russia.

I agree to a point, but when one looks at the facts of what has happened in Crimea and Ukraine, there is no doubt in my mind that Russia is the aggressor here, and all other nations have shown massive restraint.

I doubt Ukraine is in a position to head anything of note against a Russian invasion, I just don't see that happening, but there has been plenty of excuses and reasons for Ukraine to launch an all-out assault on an invading army, and they haven't.

Russia has repeatedly ignored all attempts to resolve this and pull back. They refused to talk to the Kiev government, they agreed to and then ignored the plan made in Brussels then blamed Ukraine when it started to act to remove Russian forces. The Kremlin had plenty of other avenues to go through other than force... and what have they met in response? Repeated calls for dialogue and discussion that they have completely ignored.

No matter what way I look at this (and believe me, I have been suspicious of all those involved in this from the start) actions are louder than words. Russia can say whatever it likes, it has rejected all peaceful solutions while Ukraine has restrained itself and other nations eventually resorted to sanctions.

The only people using weapons throughout the majority of this confrontation are "pro-Russian", and from the evidence gathered these people are armed and controlled by Russia.

Russia is the one acting dangerously and aggressively here, and NATO is absolutely right to do its job and act in defense of member states. Russia is now an increasing threat to Ukraine, former Soviet states and much of Europe too.

What is the alternative? Russia refuses to be rational and roll back the threat of war. NATO has a duty to protect member states. If we do nothing for too long, we'll end up in the same mess that led to WW2.

originally posted by: gladtobehere

• The US occupies 100+ foreign nations with their military bases.
  

Your translation of "Occupy" is blatantly false. The US works in conjunction with host nations, by permission of the elected governments of those nations. I might not like it, but this is by no means an "occupation".

originally posted by: gladtobehere

They have a well established history of overthrowing democratically elected governments and installing pro-Western dictators.

Pro-Western "dictators"? Seriously?
While the US has no moral soapbox to stand on, there is absolutely no way you can call Gaddafi, Saddam or the Taliban "democratically elected".

originally posted by: gladtobehere

They are waging a "drone war" on multiple nations resulting in the deaths of thousands of innocent men, women and children.

I agree, and this further reduces the trust anyone can have in the US. However, it does not change the fact that Russia HAS invaded another country, nor the fact that NATO DOES have a duty to protect members states, nor the fact that Russia has repeatedly ignored and sabotaged attempts to find a diplomatic resolution.

originally posted by: gladtobehere

They are now waging pre-emptive, lie based wars of aggression against nations who pose little or no threat.
Did Russia bomb the Ukraine for weeks and then send in an invasion and occupation force?

There doesn't need to be a campaign of bombing for an invading army to take control of another nation. Did you sleep through the invasion of Crimea? Did you miss the part where Putin denied Russian forces were in any way involved, then admitted it a couple of weeks ago? Did you miss all the evidence that there are numerous Russians within E Ukraine right now, and have openly stated their nationality to reporters when asked where they came from?

Regardless of what you or I think, we know what is likely to happen and what NATO's remit is. If Russia threatens any NATO member state it has a duty to retaliate in defense of that nation.

When or if this happens, will people STILL be claiming that Russia is a perfectly innocent participant and the US/NATO is a warmonger? I don't doubt some here are delusional enough to stick to that, unfortunately.

It's not the 1st time some tin pot general in NATO has spoken out like this.and won't be the last

Rocker,how on earth can you imply Russia is in the wrong here? IMO they have showed massive restraint

If the UK or USA roles where reversed and we had border with Ukraine and outside countries pumped money
In a coup there-put their puppets in power -and these puppets threatened our people in that country we would have used more force than the Russians have now

Is the media so bad in your country you think Russia planned this ?

a reply to: Rocker2013

Evening, Rocker2013!
Before you call me pro-russian again and then never return to the thread, let me state this very clear:

Of course Russia violated international law when they admitted Crimea into the Russian Federation as a new constituent region (that is actually what happened in legal terms), because by doing this - they violated the territorial integrity of the former souvereign republic of Ukraine.

What did Putin do?
He referred to NATO's Kosovo war in 1998/99, where we violated the territorial integrity of the former sovereign federal republic of Yugoslavia, (without UN mandate btw) - and strictly de jure also violated international law.

I'm not saying anything about whether NATO's so called "humanitarian military engagements" were morally right or wrong (legally speaking irrelevant anyways), but it set a precedent (one of many).
And now we have to deal with it. THAT is the problem.

So before we as "Westeners" point fingers at Russian agression, we have to get our own houses in order.
International laws either apply to all, or to none, and we violated those laws.


*I starred your post in the "ATS is full of shills"-thread btw, mainly because I think that this part is very important:
"There are a lot of people who are willing to call out Putin for the crazy he is, while calling out the UK and US for their hypocrisy too."

Hold on. Am I reading this right?

From Yahoo article linked:

"Clearly the Russians have declared NATO as an adversary, so we have to begin to view Russia no longer as a partner but as more of an adversary than a partner," said Alexander Vershbow, the deputy secretary-general of NATO.

In a question-and-answer session with a small group of reporters, Vershbow said Russia's annexation of Crimea and its apparent manipulation of unrest in eastern Ukraine have fundamentally changed the NATO-Russia relationship.

Emphasis is mine.

It is not Nato official. It has been said by one Nato official. Quite a difference here.

This is solely Mr Vershbow's opinion on the matter.

Nato Leaders will be discussing the possibility of stating Russia as an adversary over the summer.

If NATO were to officially designate Russia as an adversary, Moscow likely would retaliate by cutting off avenues of cooperation, including the use of Russian territory for the movement of war material in or out of Afghanistan

Not Nato official that Russia is now an adversary.

And I don't think they'll get all the Nato Leaders to cooperate into declaring it official either.

Misleading title by Yahoo News. Much more water to go under the bridges before that happens.

Just my opinion.

originally posted by: benrl

"Clearly the Russians have declared NATO as an adversary, so we have to begin to view Russia no longer as a partner but as more of an adversary than a partner," said Alexander Vershbow, the deputy secretary-general of NATO.

Nato Official: Russia now adversay

Is it crazy to anyone else that we are returning to the Cold War stances?

Whats next duck and cover?

"In central Europe, clearly we have two different visions of what European security should be like," Vershbow, a former U.S. diplomat and onetime Pentagon official, said. "We still would defend the sovereignty and freedom of choice of Russia's neighbors, and Russia clearly is trying to re-impose hegemony and limit their sovereignty under the guise of a defense of the Russian world."

At what point do rhetoric and sanctions turns into a shooting war?

Gone are Leaders like Reagan and Gorbachev, seems like we are blundering into a war with Russia.

Gorbachev, yes...made the world a better place. Reagan, I'm not going to condemn him outright, but he did increase cold war tension which had eased under Carter, with building up the military and increasing the budget deficit to its first trillion dollar mark in doing so (but it was approved by a fully dem congress, so blame lies everywhere). But he did have a change of heart and signed the treaties that finally starts to reduce numbers of nuclear weapons.

I remember the 80's...and how we celebrated when the USSR became Russia once again in 1990. A deep collective sigh of relief when the fingers were off of the button.
I'm just afraid if the US does get involved. We need to let Europe handle this unless tanks roll into Poland. The entire world would change overnight. If the US got into it with Russia in another country, China would most certainly try to take Taiwan back because, well, would the US let itself be stretched that thin? Japan would then try to help and there goes the Korean peninsula...Pakistan and India...yep. it could get ugly quick. I miss the 90's. The roaring 20's repeated, followed by economic collapse, and we all know what came next...I hope we make the right choices and are not doomed to repeat history.

NATO would have liked Russia to behave so they could make money on trade and save money by cutting defense spending. Russia of course has some big internal problems. For all the blathering on about an American uprising, Russia has had them recently and they continue to simmer just waiting for the right time explode again. Russia also hates the idea that is has fallen so far behind the West and now even being passed by China. You have a large aging military with no money to upgrade into a modern force, you economy depends on western invesment, the country is so unstable that you have keep any media that does not spout the party line closed, you are begining to depend on the West for everything, and you the only friends you have in the world are international pariahs because you have nothing to offer. Even your hated enemy NATO thinks so little of you that they have been ignoring you for decades. Corruption is so bad it keeps you from doing anything to fix the economy or the militray and all you see ahead is decline. So if your Putin you try for play to go back to the old days. Sure you have no chance of pulling it off but, just the talk of it and screwing with Georgia, Ukraine and other former Soviet states makes people feel a little better about all them running away from Russia as fast as they could.

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
Always a day late and a ruble short on this one, it seems.

Putin kinda made this clear awhile back, I think. Errrr... Leave it to NATO though. No lack of stating the obvious for them. lol....

Hell I knew this ever since the wall fell, especially as they started building the first new ICBM what ten years ago? lol

I love how these people are so brainless, yet they are allowed to control this world.

a reply to: Rocker2013


The US through its use of CIA goons propped up:
-the Shah of Iran
-Batista in Cuba
-Saddam Hussein (yes, we did. Even gave him the chemical weapons he used)

And that's just off of the top of my head. As for the bases, do you think the Germans or Japanese are excited to have that land still seized 60 years after their defeat? They are a reminder of war and loss. A few countries might welcome the money, but not all.
I'm not even going to bring up the Iran-Contra stuff. Convictions could and should have went all the way up. And those convicted were pardoned by Bush. The US is and has been on this path since the death of Kennedy and even before.
Why?
That is the question. What is the goal? Who benefits? What has happened is in the past. It is our present and future we need to worry about and answering those questions is the first part to understanding what a common person can do against the Beast.

originally posted by: Patriotsrevenge

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
Always a day late and a ruble short on this one, it seems.

Putin kinda made this clear awhile back, I think. Errrr... Leave it to NATO though. No lack of stating the obvious for them. lol....

Hell I knew this ever since the wall fell, especially as they started building the first new ICBM what ten years ago?


I love how these people are so brainless, yet they are allowed to control this world.

I thought all new ICBM building was stopped after SALT II and START II were signed and we have reduced the numbers of warheads. At least officially. The development of cobalt-13 weapons stopped.
Hey it is after noon...

originally posted by: Plugin

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: Plugin

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: Plugin
IMO the US want's to hurt Russia and Europe economical.
They already downgraded Russia (&companies) and Europe got important trade with Russia (let alone the gass we get from them). Europian banks also can be hurt bad (they have big exposure in Russia) so then they can downgrade Europe some more..

Russia wanted to escape the dollar and trade in their own currency directly with China and so on and the euro is a threat for the US, they of course want to keep their dollar dominance in world 'free' trade.

So NATO then...(most Europe)...has an issue with Russia, because America wants to hurt Europe, so Europe shoots itself in the foot to stick it to Europe and..
..
wait, wut?

Yea, sounds stupid, but Europian leaders just mosly do if not Always what the US want's. They really believe the US does things that is in our interest, like we belong together.
They can play Europe as their pet.
I

I think you give the states far more power than they wield. Yes, the US is a consumer powerhouse, and therefore playing nice with us for trade is in everyones interest..but not to a ridiculous point. the US has little to gain with another cold war....it would disrupt our slave labor contracts abroad.

Well look, they invaded Iraq (which wanted to use euro's) before they sold both to Iran and Iraq weapons.
Both country's went to war not long after and Iraq being attacked and I guess in control now. Iran hurt really bad with sanctions (can't do business basicly in the world ''free'' trade anymore.

They armed the terrorist to fight Russia in Afghanistan who where fighting the terrorists. They spy on every country even their allies. Europe gave in the name of terrorism all their money transfers information to the US. Europe helped the US when they thought it was needed to fight a war in the middle east.
Europe when the US asked stopped importing Iranian oil, did so which only hurted Europe (US never used Iranian oil).

Europe bought worhtless AAA rated products from US banks, after country's being downgraded and a US bank played some tricks in Greece as well.. Rating agency's are just a tool to control their wishes.

I can go on and on...

The military industry is huge in the US and for a good reason, even when they have nobody to fight next to their borders...

Controlling world issues can I guess become addicting, and not long before you loose sight what's right or wrong and even when it's really wrong it just seems perfectly normal after tens of years doing it (morals and logic fading away more and more).

Spot on. Great post that needs repeating.
In since the 1790's after the Republic of the United States was solidified under the current Constitution, we have been at war or armed conflict with other nations for all but 21 years of its existence. Yeah. Only a few times on the defensive. Britain, Spain, Japan and I guess Germany, they did sink a ship or two. Perhaps we should change the name of the Department of Defense back to its original Department of War.

a reply to: ColCurious

Finally a rational person to debate with!

I agree with everything you have said. You probably know I've stated several times that the US and "the West" in general has little credibility with regard to historical instances, but then how far back do we go to draw comparisons?

Either way, Russia is in the wrong here, the evidence all appears to show that Putin is directly using military force in a foreign nation while confused people here and elsewhere make unfounded accusations about the "evil West" doing more. The evidence just isn't there to say that this is all down to American Imperialism, while Russia is "innocent".

Again, I agree that there is undoubtedly Western influence somewhere, but it's Russia that has invaded, it's Russia that has amassed military on the border of another country, it's Russia that has rejected talks over an over again, and it's Russia that has been pumping "Nazi" propaganda into E Ukraine and other former Soviet nations - with varying degrees of success.

No matter how critical my opinion of America or other nations, I cannot possibly ignore that Putin and Russia are the obvious aggressors here. I'm disappointed that our own countries have so many ghosts able to come back to haunt us, but this really doesn't change who is in the wrong and who needs to be stopped in this instance.

While I would never have supported a massive military confrontation with Iraq, Afghanistan or Syria, Putin is directly threatening Ukraine, their neighbors and the security of Europe, and until Putin stops his clear and direct aggression I will cautiously agree with any action the US and NATO takes to put an end to his threat.

I'm glad I've seen a few people here willing to be a little more rational on this subject, rather than the typical anti-American knee-jerk cheer leading for Putin.

originally posted by: the owlbear
a reply to: Rocker2013


The US through its use of CIA goons propped up:
-the Shah of Iran
-Batista in Cuba
-Saddam Hussein (yes, we did. Even gave him the chemical weapons he used)

It STILL doesn't change the fact that Russia has invaded another nation and is now a direct threat to NATO member states, former USSR states and much of Europe.

Again, I'm no fan of Western actions, but Putin, right now, is a mahoosive threat to global stability like it or not.

originally posted by: gladtobehere

• The US occupies 100+ foreign nations with their military bases.
  
• They have a well established history of overthrowing democratically elected governments and installing pro-Western dictators.
  
• They are waging a "drone war" on multiple nations resulting in the deaths of thousands of innocent men, women and children.
  
• They are now waging pre-emptive, lie based wars of aggression against nations who pose little or no threat.

Did Russia bomb the Ukraine for weeks and then send in an invasion and occupation force?

1. i'm sorry but most US military bases are on american soil, not to mention that there are only bases in 29 foreign mostly allied nations.
2. while that is true it's not any more so than Russia, France or the UK during the past 100 years and the one major difference between how our government overthrew nations and how russia has is the fact that russia annexed those nations or part of them that were overthrown.
3. those drone wars as you call it are mostly not our wars and our presence is by request of our allies.
4. so has russia and not yet but they will as soon as the ukraine puts up some resistance to their actions.

originally posted by: Rocker2013
I'm disappointed that our own countries have so many ghosts able to come back to haunt us, but this really doesn't change who is in the wrong and who needs to be stopped in this instance.

I agree, and it hurts me that there is no force of legal and moral integrity left in this world that I could get behind.
We messed up. We let this happen, and we have to make this right somehow.
Thing is... time is running out, and many people are not even there yet.

a reply to: Rocker2013

It STILL doesn't change the fact that Russia has invaded another nation and is now a direct threat to NATO member states, former USSR states and much of Europe.

Nice little propaganda there that the Russia has has invaded another nation even though Ukraine is Russian.

is now a direct threat to NATO member states

Thats a sure fora good laugh.

originally posted by: Agent_USA_Supporter
Nice little propaganda there that the Russia has has invaded another nation even though Ukraine is Russian.

The fact that you believe Ukraine is Russian says all we need to know. Ukraine is a sovereign nation, it is NOT Russian territory. Russia has absolutely no claim to any former Soviet states and never will have a justifiable right to any expansion.

originally posted by: Agent_USA_Supporter
Thats a sure fora good laugh.

Laugh all you like, it doesn't stop it from being true.
The facts are that several Nato member states have expressed concern and requested additional troops and military support to prevent Russia from meddling in their countries, and Nato has clearly increased its presence in these nations.

All former Soviet states in the region have expressed concern over Russia's actions, and none of them have been willing to show any support for Russian aggression. Even China, an ally, has refused to back Russia's actions at the UN. The only real ally Russia has right now is North Korea - that should tell any sane person all we need to know.

a reply to: benrl

The ghost of the 30's are many including ironically that Russia is now the aggressor and Putin is Hitler reincarnated. NATO appeasement of the Russians will lead to them gobbling more real estate in eastern Europe. When the Russians demand Poland ,the former East Germany and parts of the Balkans the European members of NATO will have to fight another large scale war. Two wars in a century wasn't enough for these UK and European fools .

The world is interlocking the western powers appeasement of Iranian influence in the Syrian Civil lead to Russia aggression in the Ukraine. Eventually the western powers appeasement of Russia will lead to China going on the warpath in the Pacific. Make no mistake the radical left wing policy of appeasement and the man made climate change hoax that is designed to distract the masses will take us into World War 3. Many of the brainwashed masses who failed to see the writing on the wall will die out via industrialized Darwinism.