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Eerily familiar...German officials say exchange student's killing in Mont. 'out of proportion'

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posted on May, 1 2014 @ 04:39 PM
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>
just because he was trespassing,
>>

What BS is that?

He was there to burglarize that home, if not doing worse. Homeowner had every right to shoot, IMHO. This is not exactly a situation where you engage in "constructive discussion" with a possibly dangerous armed intruder. Trespasser/burglar/home invader would mean my life is in danger. Simple as that.




posted on May, 1 2014 @ 04:42 PM
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a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

No you dont, because you own a gun does not give you the right to shoot at people, might need to check up on laws and stuff



posted on May, 1 2014 @ 04:51 PM
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bottom line: he lay in wait with a shotgun to kill someone. Just because they are breaking the law, doesn't mean they are a threat to your life. basically it all revolves around the story of the homeowner. if he kept his lips shut, they would have very little to go on. there could've been a struggle, you see, or he could have feared for his life. he's as much as admitted he wasn't afraid for his life, therefore, he will be convicted. and I think the number of shots might be a contingent factor as well.



posted on May, 1 2014 @ 05:18 PM
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From the yahoo news article


Kaarma told his hairdresser he had stayed up three nights waiting to shoot a kid, the woman told investigators.

The night of the shooting, Kaarma and his partner, Janelle Pflager, left their garage door open. Pflager left her purse in the garage "so that they would take it," she told a police officer. She also set up a video baby monitor and installed motion sensors, prosecutors said.

After midnight, they heard the sensors trip. Pflager turned to the video monitor and saw a man in the garage. Kaarma took his shotgun, walked out the front door and to the driveway.

He told investigators he heard metal on metal and without speaking fired four times — sweeping the garage with three low shots and a high fourth shot. Dede was hit in the head and the arm.

Montana's law says a person is justified in using deadly force if they believe it necessary to prevent an assault or a forcible felony.


He wanted to kill someone and set a trap, I think the homeowner is in the wrong. Completely.
The purse left in the open garage is a temptation that many otherwise good kids might not be able to pass up on. I am surprised that people want to defend this homeowner.



posted on May, 1 2014 @ 10:18 PM
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No matter what, there are some on planet Earth unable or unwilling to get past "Fire! Bad!" (In your best Frankenstein voice).

You can tell because that is all you hear in their discussion. Someone with a gun will never be in the right because GUN BAD! No matter what the kid was doing he had to be innocent or at least undeserving because the guy with the GUN BAD! That is the beginning and end of the argument.

I truly wonder what will happen in their soul if they should ever be threatened with the possibility of death or harm to themselves or loved ones? Will they see the person threatening them with all the Monday Morning QB love, forgiveness, and understanding they display here? What would they say if their instincts kicked in and they defended themselves and that resulted in the death of the threatening individual?



posted on May, 1 2014 @ 10:40 PM
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a reply to: ABNARTY

If you have time to bait a trap in the garage with a purse, leave the garage door open and then kill the person. I don't really see it as being a responsible gun owner and it is not self defense. It is a case of someone who wanted to kill someone else.

I am a gun owner and I find what he did reprehensible, we should all be willing to judge things on a case by case basis and not just jump to defense/offence based on our views of gun ownership (and I mean both sides of the gun debate).



posted on May, 1 2014 @ 10:40 PM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe

Listen peanut, I am sick and tired of crap like this. You have stated




So you would rather sit terrified inside your house wondering what was going to happen next?


In my post, that you are responding to I clearly typed




I am all for protecting myself but only after I have assessed the risk, even to a minimal assessment.


What part of that can you not comprehend. Is it that hard to read and understand someone's post!

If your life is under threat or you perceive a direct threat, then blaze away! I am all for it. Shoot till they drop!

I would never sit terrified in my house, ever! I will defend myself and my loved ones, always!

This was not self defense, this was a killing, plain and simple and I can never agree with taking a life over a few possessions. Life is precious.

It is not guns that kill people, people kill people and it seems that many in the US have this belief that ending a life over a few possessions is justified .... IT IS NOT!

P



posted on May, 1 2014 @ 10:41 PM
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a reply to: ABNARTY

I am pretty sure no one here is saying "Guns bad" or that you shouldn't defend yourself when attacked - god knows I have (and with venom) when actually physically assaulted - but you at least confirm the threat first.

This chap opened fire, blind, when his motion activated light tripped. It could have been a burglar, it could have been a family member, it could have simply been a cat. It is the height of idiocy to advocate firing blindly without first ID'ing your target and determining the threat.



posted on May, 1 2014 @ 11:32 PM
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delete
edit on 1-5-2014 by nextone because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 1 2014 @ 11:49 PM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe
missoulian.com... comments


from the artilce i read (still cant find it in the missolan(local paper near me) he fired four times because he heard what sounded like metal clinking (to him implying a possible weapon in the boys hands) told him to stop the kid turned and seemed to be trying to go out the window so he fired four times stating that one shot he tried to avoid shooing the car .


When they heard an alert go off early Sunday, Kaarma grabbed his shotgun and exited the home’s front door, turning to enter the garage through the open door. Pflager allegedly told police later that Dede said “hey” or “wait” before her husband fired four shots into the darkened garage. Two of those shots mortally wounded the boy – who was pronounced dead at St. Patrick Hospital.
closest thing i could find to the quote i remembered

of note its vastly differnt as from that other case where the man shot the two teens in this case the man didnt (apparently) adminster a coup de grace under the chin



posted on May, 2 2014 @ 12:09 AM
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a reply to: nrd101

how is being awoken by the alarm "laying in wait" he set up a baby monitor to monitor the garage and had an alarm system installed due to previous break ins the closest thing to shady he did was leave the garage open with what sort of amounts to "bait" (the purse) and im not even sure if that is illegal (least for civilians to do not sure about cops getting away with it) if he shuts up and lets his lawyer talk from now on he will most likely walk,i dont see to many Montana jurors convicting him



posted on May, 2 2014 @ 12:23 AM
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Last I checked, burglary wasn't a Capital Crime and the death penalty wasn't for citizens to hand out as individuals. It takes 12 citizens together to assign that sentence, and then, in very very narrow circumstances.

The article says he didn't know the intent, or who this was. So it could have been a city inspector or meter reader or whomever. He just confirmed two legged target and let 'em have it.

We call that murder where I come from and defense of home doesn't translate to vigilante execution. The kid really had to do more than simply exist to deserve to die.



posted on May, 2 2014 @ 12:51 AM
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www.thelocal.de... German English news on the issue


Diren Dede, 17, was shot dead on Sunday in the garage of Markus Kaarma in Missoula, Montana. Kaarma, 29, was charged with murder on Monday and his lawyer Paul Ryan said on Wednesday his client has since received death threats. The lawyer said Kaarma saw Diren in the garage on Sunday night and felt “threatened”. Ryan said: “They didn’t know what he wanted in the garage, how he would act.”
so that seems to imply he saw the target before engaging and that the garage was not dark

few more links www.expatica.com...

www.fr-online.de... gonna need translate for this one but the comments are interesting as most of them are asking why the kid was in the garage in the first place 3rd one down

www.welt.de... this one calls us cowboys

but figured id add some german links for people wanting another perspective



posted on May, 2 2014 @ 06:50 AM
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Sadly,You should be able to leave your purse or other belongings ( bait or not) in your own garage without having anyone breaking in ,But the world has not gone that way. It's no secret that stealing is wrong. This kid was not stealing out of necessity, he was just a theif repeatedly robbing the homeowners. If this kid had been a 50 year old meth-head, instead of a kid, would you still feel as badly for the burglar ? ..... Personally I blame the break in on the Greman parents. I would not be surprised if their kid has a criminal past, and they shipped him off to another country to get him out of their hair.... What ever laws Germany has regarding break ins, or personal items,is not our laws, and although it's too bad the kid was shot, it's one less criminal in the world. ....And since Americans are now being called "Cowboys"...well... My answer to that is " if you don't like it, don't send your bad seed over here" .



posted on May, 2 2014 @ 07:59 AM
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originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Listen peanut, I am sick and tired of crap like this. You have stated




So you would rather sit terrified inside your house wondering what was going to happen next?


In my post, that you are responding to I clearly typed




I am all for protecting myself but only after I have assessed the risk, even to a minimal assessment.


What part of that can you not comprehend. Is it that hard to read and understand someone's post!

If your life is under threat or you perceive a direct threat, then blaze away! I am all for it. Shoot till they drop!

I would never sit terrified in my house, ever! I will defend myself and my loved ones, always!

This was not self defense, this was a killing, plain and simple and I can never agree with taking a life over a few possessions. Life is precious.

It is not guns that kill people, people kill people and it seems that many in the US have this belief that ending a life over a few possessions is justified .... IT IS NOT!

P


Peanut? Ok. Been here a bit longer than you sweetheart. I read every post before commenting. Sorry your panties are all in a wad over this. While you said what you quoted you also had plenty of other lines in your post that would suggest no action. This homeowner did assess the situation. He did take what he thought was justifiable action.

I guess you are just that much farther along and advanced in the "assessment" area that you would have reacted in a different manner. One of the most common forms of ignorance is believing that everyone around you thinks like you.....



posted on May, 2 2014 @ 08:01 AM
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originally posted by: Wrabbit2000

The kid really had to do more than simply exist to deserve to die.


He did...



posted on May, 2 2014 @ 08:10 AM
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a reply to: Elton

I cannot say one way or the other on this. I was not there and I do not know the people involved. All I have is a few bits and pieces of information which may or may not be correct. How can one possibly go case by case on this then?

But even with almost nothing to go on how can we be willing to to say this guy wanted to kill someone? If true, why wait until a person is in his garage? Why did he not just go shoot somebody? The man's home was a trap because he had a door open and something of value inside? Then whose home is not a trap?

What was the kid doing there in the first place? Did he state his intent prior to showing up and the home owner just said the heck with it, I am shootin' ? Was he an unwitting stooge to this killers evil scheme?

Since I have things in my home I value, am I a killer because I intend to protect it?

However, none of what I state here matters. It won't register to those who see this as a gun issue. It's not but that is a waste of my breath. We will return to the "both sides" narrative. Both sides of what, I have no clue.



posted on May, 2 2014 @ 08:29 AM
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a reply to: stumason

I already replied to Elton with much of this so I won't bog down the thread with a repeat.

We have a dead kid and a gun. That is all that is needed for most to to say 'no more information please, I have made up my mind'.

Agreed, ID-ing your target is the right thing to do but I was not there that night as many here on this thread seem to have been. Heck, we do not even need a trial! Clearly, from almost no evidence, it was premeditated murder whether it was or wasn't. Why? Dead kid and a gun. No need to go on.



posted on May, 2 2014 @ 10:25 AM
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(quick note i'm British so correct me if you misunderstand any of this .) first point. police forces and D.As in America are undermining the constitution, and by that i mean in the constitution it gives every American the right to defend his or herself from threat and that's just what this man was doing .( in my opinion we need a lot more men of his caliber.) Why the hell was his ass in garage anyway the only reason their could possibly be is to steal. And the guy in custody doesn't sound like some monster who kills for the fun of it, he's a fire fighter for Christ sake he puts his life on the line day in day out he got rid of somebody who a. shouldn't of been there and b. was by the sound of it an asshole anyway



posted on May, 2 2014 @ 01:08 PM
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it seems as though some people, meaning very few, have read various sources about the story, while others read the short and evidently misleading passages in the original post so most of you will have missed the fact that the homeowner and his wife/partner set a trap: alarms, baby monitor, a purse and left the garage door open.

there was a time when people around my neighbourhood were reporting that their homes were being broken into, and sure enough the burglars made their way to my house. according to mostly everyone in this thread, the lawful, the just, thing to do would have been to ramp up my security, leave my garage door open and wait in my home for the alarm to go off then shoot whomever entered my garage, knowing that it was going to happen. then i can say, "i felt threatened" and everyone will understand, they'll agree, and they'll let me go.

how is this scenario not premeditated murder? in this scenario, which is the same scenario that happened with Kaarma, is one allowed to feel "threatened" if one create the scenario and has ample protection? i am genuinely interested in having a discussion around this. i want to know how what i've described and what Kaarma did is justifiable. please don't state, as has been done, "his house and stuff and security were threatened, he's allowed" - yes, his house was burglarized twice, so he claims, but the day he shot the teen he left the garage door open, essentially he invited the burglar in. i have a garage door and it's always closed. why is it closed? because i know people will walk in and take whatever they want.

so, again, how is the scenario justifiable?




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