Absolute proof in the bible that Jesus was against hurting others or trying to control them at ALL

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: JonButtonIII

In my opinion what the corrupt Catholic church, Popes and Emperors stripped from the Bible that's most interesting would be the chapters and/or gospels pertaining to reincarnation.

After all our Earth is more than lightly a prison planet, the rule book should contain all of the facts.

I wouldn't say it's a prison planet, but rather a school.

It's only a "prison" to stubborn souls who refuse to learn the necessary lessons. Like slow students in elementary, they're destined to just keep repeating the same grade over and over.

There are hurtful and controlling and at very least forceful aspects to Christian teachings beyond the old testament. To quote Matthew 10:

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

If we take into account the historical circumstances of what Jesus is saying, he is talking at a time when polytheism is the norm and he is referring to the division which the gospel will cause. Quite literally it will tear families apart. Please correct me if I have misread.

I've seen this framed as Jesus explaining the reactions that disbelievers will have, that it will be the unbelievers reacting in such hostile ways ... but in an abusive relationship the abuser often blames the victim. That's a harsh thing to say I agree, but it's not exactly promoting a family unit. When combined with the idea that God prevents certain types of people from finding him, and most people will go to hell ... that's a powerful combination. No wonder some Christians frame Atheists as being 'mad at God'.

Christianity early on sought to directly oppose polytheism which explains why words like 'demon' have Greek origins. The Greek word used to mean 'spirit' rather than 'evil being'.

We could also refer to commentary from Jesus endorsing old testament violence such as floods and the like. When an evangelist pastor gloats over a natural disaster, it should be noted that Jesus wasn't far off that mark either; he wasn't gloating but he firmly believed world wide natural disasters could be reasonable reactions to transgressions and punishment was most people's destinies.

Even in the short term Christian monotheism was deeply hostile to polytheism. I'm not referring to the organized persecutions, but to political and job prospects; and this 'policy' stretches from the old testament to the new and is also part of many religions. 'Demonizing' others is a great way to get them to join your cause and economy (see what I did there? haha). Islam does it by having special taxes for Christians under Sharia law as another example.

Ideas can hurt, can be violent, and can control like a virus if configured in the right way. Many religions allow for this type of double speak; they allow you to exclude people from the community whilst tossing a few shekels to a homeless prostitute and mending a broken leg to make you feel better. It seems embracing, but before you know it anyone that wants to lead your country in any capacity needs to be a Christian.

Lets not forget the under current of 'revenge', that all will be punished. There is quite the superiority complex there if you want to pick it up and take it. As a Christian you don't have to, but when you see strict Jehova's Witness groups, broken families, and people afraid to admit they're not Christian; the tools are on the bible box to make that happen.

Just another way to look at it.

a reply to: JonButtonIII

"It's only a "prison" to stubborn souls who refuse to learn the necessary lessons. "

Or the poor, i bet it sure seems like a prison to them! How does that tune go again,

"We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
All in all it's just another brick in the wall"

The necessary lesson is life is what you make of it, because you have to!

originally posted by: pheonix358
The words 'Absolute proof' and 'the bible' are an oxymoron.

It isn't.

When I said "absolute proof", I'm referring what the teachings of Jesus says in the Bible,

Therefore "Bible" and "absolute proof" is not an oxymoron.

a reply to: arpgme

Then the worship of Jesus Christ is idol worship and not worship of the father. Therefore with this philosophy Jesus is not the rightful ruler of mankind.

Because God already has the whole thing planned out and knows what actions has to be made to get to a certain key point.

Someone wanting everyone to go about the day with there face in the sun is not taking anyone nowhere. And I doubt that was who Jesus was. The guy probably did have the right agenda to take people places.

People who were more concerned with making a priest mad and going to hell just got in the way. And the whole time those priests have no control over any afterlife judgment.

a reply to: arpgme

"It isn't.

When I said "absolute proof", I'm referring what the teachings of Jesus says in the Bible,

Therefore "Bible" and "absolute proof" is not an oxymoron."

For your assumption that "Jesus was against hurting others" to carry any weight you need absolute proof that the Bible is not a work of fiction.

Jesus body or even grave site or tomb would be a start but then again we all know how the Bible avoids that particular conundrum. Even if we had a body this does nothing to negate the fact that human beings have changed and edited the bible to suit there own purposes over many centuries. Essentially even if it did contain truth in the beginning it certainly does not remain so in its current iteration.

Belief in Christianity or any other religion for that matter is a choice not an absolute. Therefore there can be no absolute truth only ones interpretation.

originally posted by: XsweetNspiceyX
a reply to: arpgme

Then the worship of Jesus Christ is idol worship and not worship of the father.

I didn't say to worship Jesus. I said that his teachings are pure and came from The Father. He is The Christ (the annointed one) and The Pure Son of God (never having sinned).

originally posted by: XsweetNspiceyX
a reply to: arpgme
Therefore with this philosophy Jesus is not the rightful ruler of mankind.

No, but it is The Heavenly Father is he who sent him.

originally posted by: XsweetNspiceyX
a reply to: arpgme
Because God already has the whole thing planned out and knows what actions has to be made to get to a certain key point.

Yes, that is why Jesus is called The Christ (The Annointed One). God planned to have The Christ come into the World.

originally posted by: XsweetNspiceyX
a reply to: arpgme
Someone wanting everyone to go about the day with there face in the sun is not taking anyone nowhere. And I doubt that was who Jesus was.

It isn't, which is why he never taught that. What he did teach is that The Heavenly Father is kind to the evil and good, the righteous and unrighteous, and gives rain and sunlight to all. Our job is to love others as The Heavenly Father loves us so that we may be his Children. We are to love our enemies, bless those who curse us, and do good to those who hate us. It is not about having your face in the sun, but living as a Child of The Heavenly Father.

originally posted by: andy06shake

For your assumption that "Jesus was against hurting others" to carry any weight you need absolute proof that the Bible is not a work of fiction.

Ok, then I will rephrase. "Absolute proof in the Bible, that the Jesus of the Bible who taught The Sermon on The Mount was against hurting others".

originally posted by: andy06shake
Belief in Christianity or any other religion for that matter is a choice not an absolute. Therefore there can be no absolute truth only ones interpretation.

Your actions have consequences. That is not an interpretation but an observation of reality. If you take a rock and throw it in the water, the water will make waves. Your actions have an effect. You sow what you reap, and if you sow violence and hatred, then violence and hatred is what you will reap.

a reply to: arpgme

"Your actions have consequences. That is not an interpretation but an observation of reality."

Granted I completely accept the above premises but that's because we are able to perceive said actions. We don't know enough or have anything to compare Biblical rhetoric to, possibly the Dead Sea Scrolls, but those could also be fiction/fact merged with fiction.

"If you take a rock and throw it in the water, the water will make waves. Your actions have an effect. You sow what you reap, and if you sow violence and hatred, then violence and hatred is what you will reap."

So you understand that every action has an opposite and equal reaction, very Nutonian, ever wonder where he got this idea from?

Kabbalistic teachings suggested as much long before Sir Isaac came to his conclusion. I'm just pointing out what we consider to be religious text can also contain a measure of wisdom. So i'm not completely anti religious, i do however have a problem with organised religion, because they have an agenda, they don't just want your soul, they want your mind!

a reply to: andy06shake

Jesus didn't create a religion, only a philosophy and that is that...


True love is not just about being happy and doing what you must do for others. True love is about showing that you are actually helping people from the heart by going the extra mile and helping them even more than they asked for and being able to forgive and be kind even when they become 'thy enemy' being mean to you. True love is about appreciating all of the good, forgiving all of the bad, and helping others.


Now, there is a spiritual side to what Jesus taught at the Sermon on The Mount, but even if you don't believe it, understanding this philosophy of "true love" is enough to bring peace into your life reducing stress and increasing harmony and friendliness with others.

Here is the spiritual side:

There is a creator that made all things.

The creator is called "The Heavenly Father" because he is so loving that he sees us as his children.

These teachings of forgiveness and kindness represents the nature of The Heavenly Father.

Somehow, at some point in time, humanity forgot how to 'act like' a Child of The Heavenly Father.

Jesus is The Annointed One (The Christ) who came into this world knowing his connection to The Father in order to remind us how to act like Children of The Heavenly Father.

a reply to: arpgme

"Jesus didn't create a religion, only a philosophy and that is that..."

I was under the impression that Jesus apostles created Christianity? Then the emperor Constantine legalized the religion. Or so I was lead to believe in Sunday School!

"True love is not just about being happy and doing what you must do for others. True love is about showing that you are actually helping people from the heart by going the extra mile and helping them even more than they asked for and being able to forgive and be kind even when they become 'thy enemy' being mean to you. True love is about appreciating all of the good, forgiving all of the bad, and helping others. "

Can you please stop trying to preach to me, I thought we were attempting to have a rational discussion?

What's love, got to do, got to do with it?

Did the Christians love the millions they exterminated during the inquisitions or holy crusades? Seems to me Gods love is conditional, requiring belief, why does he/she/it need me to believe?

"Now, there is a spiritual side to what Jesus taught at the Sermon on The Mount, but even if you don't believe it, understanding this philosophy of "true love" is enough to bring peace into your life reducing stress and increasing harmony and friendliness with others."

Peace, when has Christianity throughout recorded history ever catted to the notion of peace? Now war, famine and pestilence, well they most certainly created plenty of those!

"Here is the spiritual side:

There is a creator that made all things.

The creator is called "The Heavenly Father" because he is so loving that he sees us as his children.

These teachings of forgiveness and kindness represents the nature of The Heavenly Father.

Somehow, at some point in time, humanity forgot how to 'act like' a Child of The Heavenly Father.

Jesus is The Annointed One (The Christ) who came into this world knowing his connection to The Father in order to remind us how to act like Children of The Heavenly Father."

Again with the preaching, where's the rationality in that?

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: arpgme
Can you please stop trying to preach to me, I thought we were attempting to have a rational discussion?

We are. I was telling you that Jesus didn't create a religion but a spiritual philosophy, and I was telling you what about his philosophy, his views on true love.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: arpgme
Did the Christians love the millions they exterminated during the inquisitions or holy crusades?

No, but Christ did.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: arpgme
Seems to me Gods love is conditional, requiring belief, why does he/she/it need me to believe?

The love is unconditional, but the need to believe is for YOUR sake, so that you can find peace. Why did anyone choose to follow Jesus to the Sermon the Mount? Because he told them that if they chose to follow him to the Mount and listen it'll change their lives for the better.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: arpgme
Peace, when has Christianity throughout recorded history ever catted to the notion of peace? Now war, famine and pestilence, well they most certainly created plenty of those!

You are judging Christ-ianity, based on those who claim to follow Christ, rather than the teachings of Christ. His teachings does not say it's ok to have wars. In the Sermon he said to forgive enemies, and later on he said those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: arpgme
Again with the preaching, where's the rationality in that?

I'm not preaching to you. You suggested that Jesus created a religion, and I'm saying that this isn't true, he created a spiritual philosophy and then I explain what the philosophical and spiritual teachings are. I was completely neutral in explaining this to you. There are not rituals taught in The Sermon, there were not leaders called 'priests' or 'popes', in fact in the Sermon, Christ taught that for those who follow his teachings, there is only one instructor and that is him (Matthew 23:10). Again, I am not preaching to you. I am clarifying the spiritual philosophy of Christ and explaining how it is not a religion (it lacks, rituals and does not ask for faith for a church or priest).

a reply to: arpgme

"You suggested that Jesus created a religion"

Where did i suggest Jesus created Christianity?

The Bible implies that he died for our sins, but as you can imagine i don't place much stock in a book written and edited by tyrants!

It's my opinion that TPTB of the Roman Empire created Christianity or allowed said religion to flourish in an attempt to unite their already failing empire/societies. Christianity brought a form of unity to the masses, the belief in one god as opposed to the pantheon of others worshiped at the time, no more no less! It worked we are still here, and still killing in his name!.

a reply to: arpgme

YEP. It's called the New Testament for a reason .... it's NEW. Jesus did NOT approve of stoning people to death. People all caught up in Leviticus and man made laws from 4500 years ago just dont' get it. They think they are all spiritual and doing what God wants ... but in reality it's rather earthbound in thought and mundane. Well, let them wallow in the mundane if it makes them happy ... as long as they don't have that junk spill over onto the rest of us ....

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: arpgme

"You suggested that Jesus created a religion"

Where did i suggest Jesus created Christianity?

When you said that the Teachings of Christ (Christ-ianity) was a religion:

originally posted by: andy06shake
Belief in Christianity or any other religion for that matter is a choice not an absolute. Therefore there can be no absolute truth only ones interpretation.

originally posted by: andy06shake
So i'm not completely anti religious, i do however have a problem with organised religion, because they have an agenda, they don't just want your soul, they want your mind!

that is a suggestion that Christ created a religion.

If The Powers that Be created Christianity, they would not behave the way they do. Those who are able to come up with the Teachings that Christ came up with, must have deep understanding of Unity and Love.

A teaching that there is a creator of all and we are all his children and therefore brothers and sister?
A teaching that you should treat others as you would like to be treated?
A teaching that what you have done to others you have also done to Christ (Matthew 25:40)?

A person must have a deep understanding of Love and Unity to come up with something like that and TPTB would not act the way they do.

a reply to: arpgme

"You suggested that Jesus created a religion"

"When you said that the Teachings of Christ (Christ-ianity) was a religion"

I suggested nothing of the sort which is quite plain for all to see! Your simply trying to play on words and that bullcrap won't wash with me i'm afraid. You're perfectly aware of the context in which i used the word LoL

I called it Christianity because that's its given name, call it Catholicism if you like, same thing. And to be quite frank beside the point when one considers Jesus was of the Jewish persuasion, fictitious or otherwise.

Man created religion my friend, Christianity included in all its many wondrous shapes and forms. If you can provide me with evidence to the contrary i will happily consider the notion.