The Terrible Fear of Paying the Poor Too Much

originally posted by: defcon5
The government doesn't do crap if you call them. A slap on the wrist, a small fine (maybe), and you out of a job for being a “whistle blower”.

Calls to OSHA can be made anonymously, you do not ever have to give your name. I have worked in an location where they have been called and based on the severity of the claim it is much more than a slap on the wrist and each call usually leads to scheduled follow up by the agency.

There are avenues and recourses that can and should be taken. Thinking the deck is always stacked against you is not a line of thinking I endorse or believe.

originally posted by: defcon5
As I was saying, that doesn't work anymore.

Speak for yourself. It sure as hell works for me and I certainly do not share your overly pessimistic view of life.

a reply to: defcon5

"Being forced to do what is right does not make it any less right. As a society we should want to do what is right, and as such there should be no argument here; but alas greed rears its ugly head with excuses about how dark is actually light, and red is really blue, again."

You missed the whole point. For one to truly accept Christ, they must have the option not to. Good is still good, which is why conservative Christians tend to give much more of their time and money to charitable causes when compared to those on the left and the non-religious. The choice is key, when there is no choice one cannot truly accept Christ. Remember that Christ had to be tempted by the devil, he had to choose not to give in to that temptation. So must we. Communism/Socialism do not allow that, so Christ could not possibly subscribe to such an ideology.

"There has never been a true communist government in the world to date that I am aware of, outside of tribal ones. In true communism, everyone works, everyone shares, and everyone either prospers or suffers as a community. "

Of course there hasn't, man is incapable of wielding absolute power over others, most men can't even control themselves. The fatal flaw of communism is the human element, so any time you try to apply it using us humans, it will eventually fail.

a reply to: ThirdEyeofHorus

Gates also interestingly believes that vaccines are a great way to depopulate through sterilization of third world people unawares

Since I know that this statement is complete BS on your part which you can't back up it makes me think the rest of your claims have also been pulled out of your neither regions.

I think our Government and Corporations have gotten us in this mess to begin with.
The Government has over taxed and over regulated businesses and has allowed them to seek refuge manufacturing in other countries with NAFTA/CAFTA and with China.
So instead of correcting those mistakes, the Government wants to increase minimum wage for very low skilled jobs?
If our manufacturing base was returned, I think the wages would also increase since those jobs involve more skill.

So what is the most valuable skill that Ceos and the rich percess that the rest of the population dont. It is the ability to manipulate people and situations in their favour. Call this ability what you like in nicer terms such as salespersonship or the ability to convince others when it is done overwelmingly for personnal benefit it is still manipulation. Most people will not deny that a skilled person is worth more than an unskilled person and that the greater someones ability to do a job the more that they should get paid. There are however some very skilled people that are brilliant at their jobs but they do not have the silver tongue or the contacts to make it to the higher levels in their profession. Those at the top are rarely those that could have produced the best products and services that could be produced or those that have societies best interets at heart but rather those that are the best at convincing others to go along with their plans ( usually to make as much money as possible in as shorter time as possible ) In todays society it does not seem to matter very much the degree of honesty or integrety or the fact that powerful people attend satanic festivals with mock human sacrifices but wheather the job of making as much money as possible as quick as possible for the few to benefit can be done. Some of the things that are done in order to keep companies as profitable as possible are paying the least amount of money that can be got away with and producing goods and services of the least exceptable quality that people will except when buying a good or service.

originally posted by: macman

One, we are pushing toward similar goals, but differ on how to get there.
Two, we are both stubborn people that enjoy debating.
My offer still stands, if you ever venture to the US, hit me up. I will buy you lunch.

Haha I think that's true.

I honestly see two successful routes to a happy economy.

You got the Singapore/Hong kong system which are the freeist markets in the world or you have the socialist lite system that Norway/Sweden/Finland have.

Both have the highest standards of living, both have sustainable economy's and both have very low poverty. Both are completely different.

Now I dont think the Scandinavia route will work in the USA its too big. So that leaves the totally free market route of hong kong/ Singapore which you can see works very very well.

Your government cant seem to make its mind up what it wants (neither can mine to be honest) hence you have these bastardized hybrid economy's that are failing and being exploited.

To be fair I think your Federal government should all but dismantle and let the individual states handle what direction it wants to go in, leave the feds to just enforce the Constitutions and manage a defense force.

And yeah I may take you up on the lunch offer if Im over there, I like steak by the way same offer apply s to you here.

originally posted by: mugger
I think our Government and Corporations have gotten us in this mess to begin with.
The Government has over taxed and over regulated businesses and has allowed them to seek refuge manufacturing in other countries with NAFTA/CAFTA and with China.
So instead of correcting those mistakes, the Government wants to increase minimum wage for very low skilled jobs?
If our manufacturing base was returned, I think the wages would also increase since those jobs involve more skill.

Apropos of this, a recent white paper estimates "...regulatory compliance and economic impacts at $1.863 trillion annually"

"Ten Thousand Commandments - An Annual Snapshot of the Federal Regulatory State"

Whenever I brush against things like Sarbanes-Oxley requirements at work, I just wonder how anyone stays in business at all ...

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs

He has BOTH, as well as sys-admin, several languages, and overarching knowledge that his managers revere and need.....and is the go-to guy for his company. He gets up at 4am to deal with the people in Taiwan and India.

Great to hear that it sounds like he is employed.
In most instances, you are either a Network person, or a software person. Unless you are within the small to medium sized business.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
You think you're just oh-so-special?

Your projecting again.
Aside from you not addressing 90% of the statements, and queuing only on one or two points I make, only to transform them into something it is not, you clearly need to re-read a lot here.
I never said I was special.

In fact, I said if I of all people can do this, there is no reason why anyone else can't.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
You're the only one who's a veteran with a valuable skill set?

Again, your projecting.
Where did I state this?

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
Whatever. Yeah, violence and brute force indeed.

Yep. Oh.....don't forget about steady trigger pull. Don't slap it.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
Saying you need to fix the 'reply to [name]' is 'bossy'?
Really? You quoted things that I said, and Ordo is the one you attributed it to. It has nothing to do with anything except accuracy! Totally indifferent to your replies and attitude, but I doubt Ordo would appreciate your inaccuracy.

You really need to look at yourself.
Telling me to fix it, is bossy.
Your manners seem to fly out the window when certain things get brought up.
Oh, can't fix it. Past the edit time window.

I wonder, will you address an Admin in the same manner?

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
"Bossy."
*shakes head* You are a real piece of work, mac.

Well thanks.
Flattery may just be the way to get my pants off.

originally posted by: wills120
a reply to: defcon5

I agree with this as well. I'm a network engineer with over 17 years in the industry. I have a bachelor's degree from a respectable school along with the typical alphabet-soup of certifications from Cisco, Microsoft, CompTIA, ITIL, Novell, VMWare, etc. When I was laid off in 2009 I couldn't find work even close to what I was making before because the market was re-adjusting with cheaper labor. I took a much lower paying job and added another 3 certs to my resume but I'm still sitting about $30-40K less than I was previously in 2009 in a much more competitive and expensive market (San Diego). I can easily find work at what I'm currently making but it's very, very difficult to find jobs that pay more than the current market.

I have been involved with Telecom/Networks/Wireless since 95. I get calls weekly from recruiters wanting to hire me for positions everywhere in the US.
I wonder, what is the detracting factor that you have, where you couldn't get hired?

I know many CCNP holders making $70k just as they pass the cert for all 3 areas. And $90k for green CCNPs.

Strange, felt compelled to make an account just to add my two cents...

What some people don't mention is that there is only so many high paying jobs to go around, only so many 30$/hour pen pushing jobs available with our current population. And at this goes for low paying jobs as well.

And with each passing day technologoly continues to improve replacing all of our jobs, from flipping burgers and harvesting wheat to sitting at a desk and pressing buttons all day. All if not most of jobs will dissapear as it will soon be all automated with appropriate software and hardware.

I have to go but, another thought...

"People are paid what their skill is worth. If their skill is worth $8 an hour, then they should be paid accordingly.
If their skills are worth $10 gazillion a year, then they get it. "

The problem is people are not paid for what their skill is worth, no skill comes close to sitting at desk on the top floor.
If you can't see that people are not getting paid for what their time AND skill is worth, you need to change your perspective.

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus

Just to be fair Mac, Cisco has tons of different certifications and just because you specialize in software development does not mean you don't need or benefit from any of the Cisco certs available. Cisco certs are good industry standards to go by.

I agree. In my neck of the woods, Cisco Certs hold a lot of sway, and the higher the cert, the bigger the salary.

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
Not that I agree with anything else the guy says. And also, I'm one of those people who got a degree in IT and walked right into a huge recession. Entry level jobs in my field have been outsourced, and jobs in general are hard to find.

I see many many entry level network jobs in the west. Most start around $40-45k a year.

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
One cannot live on 10 bucks an hour. But this does not mean that I agree with Progressives on wage increases. The problem is way more complex. We have to start with the fact that whereas an average bookkeeper used to be able to get by and take care of his family is no longer the case. Why? Because the Fed keeps printing money and devaluing the dollar, we have lost our buying power and taxes are outrageous. I never saw a tax a Progressive didn't like.

Agreed

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
Also, I would be interested to know if you were already in the Telecom industry when you got your certs, and with your supposed networking experience, I'm surprised at your browbeating the guy on this.

Started in 95 repairing cell phones and pagers. Got into Telecom in 97. Added IT Networks around 05'ish.
Not browbeating at all.

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
It's really just not that easy to get a job when you first enter the field. Or maybe you are just a genius.

Genius??? Hardly.

Don't know how it is hard. I have helped about 10 people train and earn Cisco basic certs, who were able to within 2-3 months get jobs starting around $45k a year.

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus

I do agree with you that there are a lot of people on this site who believe in government intervention and heavy taxes and the Nanny State. I do not believe in the Nanny State. Also, yes jobs are being outsourced, and yes many businesses have left the country because the unions and bureaucratic regulations and heavy taxation have made it difficult to operate in the US.

I am the first to state, especially within the IT field, jobs are outsourced. And I know first hand that the outsourcing is starting to bite the companies in the butt.
Not only do customers leave a company due to this, with the language and accent barrier, but the people that are being hired, say in India, are not experienced.
For example, I worked with a large company that has outsourced their IT staff to India. Their "Network Engineer" that I worked with touted a CCIE on his email signature. 15 minutes into a call, I end up having to explain BGP to him.
Now, I hold numerous "A" level certs, studied for the "P" level but never tested for them. I am operating on the "P" level. Why on earth do I need to explain to a CCIE what BGP is?

The outsourcing backlash is already coming. I see it directly as more contact/call centers are re-relocating back in the states.

a reply to: galadofwarthethird

SO Skynet is your answer??

Okay then.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Great thread, Buzzy! S&F.

However, I would simply state that the Republicans are "playing their part." Liberal/Progressive CEOs are just as likely to overpay themselves as Republican/Conservative CEOs.

Liberals play the part of raise the minimum wage - "because we care." And Republicans play the part of "oh no you don't!"

This sort of thing is to be expected. And as I just noticed that benrl said, both parties are for the corporate and not the individual. I couldn't agree more.

originally posted by: Greven
I dislike how you break down posts (sometimes into single sentences!) and feel that you do so maliciously.

Well that truly sucks.

originally posted by: Greven
I won't do this and will instead respond to your 'points' sequentially.

Good for you.

originally posted by: Greven
It has little to do with your particular plight. You certainly have enough free time to post on ATS an average of 8+ times a day since you joined. This was, if you'll note, directed at your assertion that people working $9/hr or less deserve it.

I have time throughout my day to respond between calls and stuff. There are days that I don't post at all.
Thanks for the detective work though.

originally posted by: Greven
Essentially, you're communicating the idea that people need to work harder to earn more. One gentleman was a single father and worked around two full-time jobs, 16+ hours a day 5 days a week. He slept during the weekend.

Well good for him.
I too work 2 full time jobs. Sleep about 4-5 hours a night.
What is the point?

originally posted by: Greven
Additionally, I'm really not sure why you keep harping on taxation and welfare assistance in a thread talking about increasing the minimum wage, as these are entirely different subjects.

Because the excuse used for raising this, is to keep people off of welfare.

originally posted by: Greven
Again with the government assistance and taxation fixation - I do not understand what it has to do with this thread. The point was fairly clear, I thought - the paragraph was not divided like you do in response.

See above.

originally posted by: Greven
You said you knew and had relatives who were in business. I asked if you had any assistance from people you knew, you know... connections? Family?

Yes, In-laws.

originally posted by: Greven
You yourself stated that you had relatives that run large and small businesses. Now you state that it's only people you met later? Quite curious.

In-laws.
Curiosity killed the cat many times over.

originally posted by: Greven Again, this thread is about minimum wages, not government assistance and taxation.

And when it is used as the biggest crutch to push it, it is an issue.

originally posted by: Greven
The bulk of that remark is simply a refutation of your assertion that "It has nothing to do with giving money to anyone," not anything to do with taxes. Again, this thread is about the minimum wage. Perhaps you are lost?

Nope. Got my map and compass. Know exactly where I am.

originally posted by: Greven

Back in 'the day' as it were, rich people were thought to be blessed by God. Jesus said that just isn't so; that the meek shall inherit the Earth, etc.

That is great.

originally posted by: Greven
Again, no. Skill does not drive wages. Full stop. It's a meeting of business needing people, and those people refusing to work for any less.

Yes, skill + need for skill does in fact drive wage.

originally posted by: Greven
Once again, no. You entirely missed the point. If computer programmers all voluntarily accepted lower wages, businesses would cut their wages. Even while there is a shortage of computer programmers.

Yes, but how on earth would all of them accept lower wages, and why would they?
What-ifs are cute and all, but...........

originally posted by: Greven
I'd love to see that world too, but people have basic needs and are quick to compromise their ideals for those needs. Alas, it's much less likely to happen in the United States than in more civilized countries.

Okay then.

originally posted by: Greven
Do you recall how unions work? It's basically like I just described, on a smaller scale (individual markets rather than vast sectors). Bargaining power is at work here - at its strongest when everyone agrees to work together for the collective good.

Oh, I know exactly how Unions work. Seen it in action in the Telecom world for many years now.
Yeah, lazy and sleeping techs, refusing to do work during certain periods of the day, allowing themselves to be "specialized" in running a (2) wire circuit from left to right for 25 years. Yep, I have seen it up close.

originally posted by: Greven
Yet again, no. Skill does not drive wages. Scarcity of skill doesn't even drive wages. Individual bargaining power is strengthened by having a needed skill, especially one that is hard to come by.

Nope.
I wonder how it is that someone like me has been able to rise through the industry with the "union" there to help me.
If a company needs someone to perform a task, and the task is not common, they will offer higher pay.
Has very little to do with the hive bargaining for me.

originally posted by: Greven
Social connections also help bargaining power.
[/quote
Yeah, tell that to Jimmy Hoffa.

originally posted by: Greven
Why do companies even respect minimum wage laws? Because governments have superior bargaining power.

That is a very Alinsky way of saying force of law.

originally posted by: Greven
Why were unions so strong in forcing businesses to do things? Because the collective whole has equal or superior bargaining power.

No, Unions used force, blackmail and bribes.

originally posted by: Greven
Bargaining power is what drives wages.

Tell that to my employer and paycheck.

originally posted by: crazyewok
Haha I think that's true.

I honestly see two successful routes to a happy economy.

You got the Singapore/Hong kong system which are the freeist markets in the world or you have the socialist lite system that Norway/Sweden/Finland have.

Both have the highest standards of living, both have sustainable economy's and both have very low poverty. Both are completely different.

Now I dont think the Scandinavia route will work in the USA its too big. So that leaves the totally free market route of hong kong/ Singapore which you can see works very very well.

I agree.
That does lead the fact of, what we have here, can't necessarily work for others.

originally posted by: crazyewok
Your government cant seem to make its mind up what it wants (neither can mine to be honest) hence you have these bastardized hybrid economy's that are failing and being exploited.

Well, it knows it wants more control and more money.
Can I just start referring to it as Veruca Salt?

originally posted by: crazyewok
To be fair I think your Federal government should all but dismantle and let the individual states handle what direction it wants to go in, leave the feds to just enforce the Constitutions and manage a defense force.

I agree wholeheartedly.

originally posted by: crazyewok
And yeah I may take you up on the lunch offer if Im over there, I like steak by the way

same offer apply s to you here.

Hit me up. Steak sounds good.

a reply to: pavil

Oh, I agree with you, however, something has to be done instead of nothing. There's nothing wrong with making money, but at what point should the owner take care of the workers so that they can live a good life too? This system that has been set up is idiotic and greedy. A company makes record profits, yet, the worlers have to sign up for food stamps just to make it? BS. This isn't right. Never was.

Let's see. if we pay burger flippers and street sweepers a 'living wage', what is the impetus for them to go to school and better themselves?
Entry level jobs are just that...entry level. To see if the person has a good work ethic and can learn...climbing the corporate ladder.
The military learned that years ago. If you want to remain in the military, you have to learn you job and move up.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I'm not sure why this nonsense thread continues to get any attention. Republicans never once have suggested poor people do not get paid more. They have suggested business owners have a right to spend their own money on their own business in the way they want. That is all. Its called your money, your choice. Its a concept Democrats will never understand despite the obvious simplicity and morality of it.

Envious Democrats fear other people having more stuff than them and they immediately resort to mafia tactics to have their way with other people's money.

If you want to solve problems, solve them. Don't ask a politicians, someone who bases their decisions on violence and crime, to do it for you. That is the way forward. If you see something wrong, do something about it. Your self. For example, Democrats could all agree to shop at places that pay fair wages. But they may never do that because they seem to care more about controlling people than helping them.

originally posted by: ImaFungi
The owner of the company takes money out of his pocket every day to pay the entirety of his company's funds?

No, he is the one driving the innovation and providing the leadership. Many of the people who work here, including me, came because this was a major factor. I would not want to work here if someone else was running the company which would happen on under your confiscatory plan.

Is it not autonomous, in the sense of the company and work dont by its parts create and provide the value, good and/or service, which is sold for money, and that money made is used to then pay for all the costs required for the workers to do the work to create the value and so on?

It is obvious you have never run a business as they do not run autonomously or function in a vacuum absent solid leadership.

[quote And how much salary or profit do you think your owner has made in the past 5 years? Or additionally to him being a billionaire? You do not think the autonomy of the company could function without the owner taking out a hefty share weekly?

I have no idea what he takes out and that is not my concern. My concern is that the company is managed properly and that we have a future here, which we it is and we do.

Say the owner makes in profit solely for himself of a million dollars a year (a conservative estimate), if the owner and all of his family were to die tomorrow, this would mean yearly a million extra dollars to use strictly for the company. Workers besides the owner knowing the ins and outs of the company would surely be able to run the company sufficiently.

Again, you have no concept of what it requires to run a business. Our recent R&D project ran into the tens of millions. That was money he could obviously have pocketed but ploughed into the company to help set us apart from the competition. Guess what? It worked.

Once again I am not arguing for myself and for you. I am arguing for everyone, and all future humans that will be born on the planet. This is not about one individual, this is about all individuals.

Well I hate to inform you, I am part if that nebulous 'everyone' you wish to save with your punitive measures and I personally do not want you or anyone like you meddling in my or anyone else's business because your frankly do not understand it.

I appreciate and respect your optimism, I know am aware things are as good as they get, there is nothing to complain about, people win, people lose, people live, people die, people have, people have not, people suffer, people cause suffering, its best to just worry about oneself and not think about anyone or anything else, as it has always and always will sort itself out.

Whatever you say.