Spiritual Reorientation 3: You are your body

a reply to: Aphorism

What am I so afraid of? I don’t wish to escape my body. It’s not a matter of fear but more a matter of taste.

Taste? Give me a break. You don't want to do it because you have a preconceived idea in your mind that it's all bogus.

I trust myself completely. I prefer to keep it all together, and I end up finding a better and more healthy spirit in it than I ever have playing with the ghost in the shell.

Hold on. You just through a curve ball. You've been playing with the ghost in the shell? What the hell is that?

So you admit you know nothing about OBE's, and have no desire to learn about them outside of casual conversation. Fine.

Your opinions of it and of the OBE'ers you talk to, has nothing to do with your personal actions and spiritual endeavors so don't blame them.

Leave those poor little witch-doctors and Shaman's out of this, and just say 'I don't want to know if its real or not, I'd rather belief it isn't real and call myself a practical, sensible and down to earth person as I try to convince others as well.


Fair enough?

a reply to: Visitor2012

Why are you still arguing the issue with (according to you) "Opinions that don't matter"?

The one thing I absolutely agree with you on. Is that I should have stated my stance before chiming in so to give a better idea to others of where I'm coming from.

Truthfully I wouldn't mind having an OBE that is not drug induced. I don't outright deny it's possibility I only feel the argument against it is currently stronger than the one for. Nothing I read has convinced me otherwise.

This might be because of my skeptical nature, but this is how I have always been and don not know how not to be the way I am.

a reply to: midicon

Thanks for the poetry praise. I realise when I write things like that I leave myself open, although sometimes the responses give an insight into character. Praise is rare though and it is appreciated.
Now that thats out of the way I can slag you off..!

Can you see what you are doing here, when you say 'join your club of being ignorantly satisfied with not knowing?'? Do I have a club, have I displayed or advocated ignorace...do you think that I lack knowledge?

Wait a minute. Didn't you just say you never had an OBE? If so, what kind of knowledge about it do you have? I wasn't referring to anything else.

And then you mention Plato's cave...you are rather silly you know. A perhaps more productive move for you would be old Zarathustra's serpent lair.

Never heard of that one, I'll check it out. Curious, if you never had an OBE, how would you know which story is more relevant?

In all this conversation you have only said one thing that I find interesting. For the most part it has been puffing and prancing...and capitalizing. It isn't just the tone, inflection or choice of words but more of the...assumptive and presumptive!
And going by this thread, it seems to be par-for-the-course.

This isn't a personality contest, but really like the words you used! I have been talking about one thing and one thing only (well, two if you count my discussion about the human ear) and that is OBE's. And as far as I can tell, my assumption that you and Aphorism has never experienced it, was correct. Big deal.

And lastly...because I am honest.
Something did happen to me
That's why I can see

Thanks again for the poem stuff

Midicon.

I think I've seen a few of your poems and I dig them. I never shared any story about myself or what Happened to me not only because I feel it's sacred and I WANT to keep it to myself (only my wife knows) but primarily because bed time stories (regardless if you believe them or don't) are irrelevant and of no use to anybody.

As I said before, that was the only point I was trying to make. Because the best way to know what an Apple tastes like, is not by reading about it, not by viewing arguments from both sides and picking which one matches my preconceived idea of it, it's by EATING one. Which is what I did.

Yet with OBE's we have certified skeptics who haven't even tried to taste the experience but are quick to condescend and dismiss others who have. That's what grinds my gears. And it took an exhaustive number of posts to get the OP to admit that.

a reply to: g0dhims3lf

Truthfully I wouldn't mind having an OBE that is not drug induced. I don't outright deny it's possibility I only feel the argument against it is currently stronger than the one for. Nothing I read has convinced me otherwise. 

Pardon me for making this reference, but I'm willing to bet that the people who once thought the Earth was flat said the same thing.  Someone, somewhere probably said:
 'I wouldn't mind traveling across the Earth. I don't deny the possibility of the Earth being spherical, I only feel the argument against it is currently stronger than the one for. Nothing that I've read has convinced me otherwise." 

 And as you know, there were TREMENDOUS arguments against it.

Or....you can do what The OP did and say:
"The World IS flat, and those who say they traveled and found out it isn't are fooling themselves. I don't want to travel across the earth to find out if I'm right or not. Because it's a matter of taste. Besides many of the travelers I've talked to seem crazy to me. So I'd rather be happy and enjoy the park and the fresh air."

This might be because of my skeptical nature, but this is how I have always been and don not know how not to be the way I am.

Don't change. You SHOULD be skeptical of everything and anything you haven't come in personal contact with. I think that's very wise.

a reply to: Visitor2012

Don't you find it strange that you...clever and knowing as you are...lack clarity of vision. That is why I say something is amiss.
Perhaps you may realise that I in my own humble way, have a little insight.

I mentioned Zarathustra...not really as a suggestion for reading...but as a pointer to self knowledge. I am tempted to go into Plato's cave but I see the pitfalls that will arise in any dicussion. Let me move on.

And as far as I can tell, my assumption that you and Aphorism has never experienced it, was correct. Big deal

I wasn't referring to that...and it's not a big deal. It would appear that you are your own blind spot.


I don't really write poems although this thread would seem to suggest differently. Now and then if I'm inclined, I make a point with a little rhyme. Believe it or not, I am trying to give something nice...even in the face of adversity. You see if I want to talk about...let's say love. I may couch it in words suggestive of the thing in itself. Let me have a go...

I wanted to write something beautiful.
And then I realized...
I would have to become beautiful,
And then I was lost…
Then my love touched me, and gave me a gift
And the gift was her touch…

Love is the most beautiful thing


I'm glad you like the words I use...I like them too. At some point someone may realise I can only do this because they are a reflection of me. I look for myself in your words Visitor...and I am not there.


I can understand why you would not want to relate what happened to you...but you want others to share. You say come back in a few months and we will talk about it. In reality we should reverse our roles in this conversation!


Anyway...despite all that...I have enjoyed this.

My daughter is always urging me to write...perhaps I should.

Midicon.

And for the record Aphorism, the more spiritual journeys I take the more humble and in awe of life and existence I become.

Peace

a reply to: Visitor2012


Why hast thou enticed thyself
Into the old serpent's paradise?
Why hast thou stolen
Into thyself, thyself?...
Enclaved within thyself,
Burrowing into thyself...
Piled with a hundred burdens...
A knower!
Self knower!
You sought the heaviest burden
And found yourself.

Nietzsche

I am but a captive
alienated from myself and my true intellectual capability
I am aware, watching from a distance
I am the liar that knows the truth
Keeping it from myself

I am my body
My body is my consciousness
Streaming energy and waves to and fro, then and now

a reply to: PhotonEffect

This seems like quite the generalization. So let me get this straight, spiritual people, in your view, neither like themselves, nor their bodies, nor others. These are the hallmarks of a spiritual person. Is that right?

I consider everyone spiritual, insofar as everyone seeks for something sacred. I believe it is human nature. I’m speaking particularly of those who seek the sacred outside themselves or the world.

One example is found in John, where it is expressed that we should not love the world or the things in it, and that we should rather reserve that love for God. I find such paradoxes almost sickening, because we are of the world and things in it.

Why would we suppose such a thing? a
That which resides within the body since conception would cease to be a foreign object, no?

Yes, because like everything else in the body, it is the body itself. It isn’t foreign at all. But yet, people believe it is.

I think it's quite the opposite, actually.

You are not only your body. That is too broad a definition of 'you'. You seem only concerned with the 'what' (object), and only perfectly content to disregard the 'who' (subject). We are not zombies.

Your fear is not your body. Your sorrow is not your body. Your happiness is not your body. Your thoughts are not your body. Your ideas are not your body. Yet all of these things are part of what constitute the 'you'. They are not material either, so where does that leave us?

How do you regularly identify yourself as you? By your personality, or by the length of your arms? By your experiences, or by the size of your brain?

Do people - your family, friends, colleagues - relate only to your body (object), or the subject within?

Yes we are not zombies. And this is why people don’t turn into zombies: no consciousness, no mind, no feeling, no personality, no kernel of humanity abandons the body so that it may operate on its own accord as a monster. When we lose consciousness, we still operate as ourselves, as humans. The only thing we lack is the proper functioning.

Sorrow is the body being sorrowful. Happiness is the body being happy. Thoughts are the body thinking. The body does sorrow. The body does happiness. The body does thoughts.

Implying there is a subject within the body is to objectify that person. You’ve objectified me into two objects: body and subject within. In order to remain a subject, I must be operating as one entity. I am neither one no the other.

Why do you readily dismiss things like the mind and thoughts?

What’s to dismiss? If you can show me what to dismiss, I might try. But so far, there’s nothing to dismiss, let alone accept blindly. When we use the word mind, I believe we are still talking about the body.

No, Aphorism. Look again at the bolded part of your definition. Sound is mechanical energy, or a vibration, that moves through the air. It can only be "heard" once that vibration/energy hits the ear, or a microphone, or any other device that is capable of converting those vibrations into electrical signals that your brain turns into a sound, which is then experienced through your consciousness. If a device is not there to intercept the vibration, then a noise can not, and will not, ever be made. This is fundamental reality here.

So you agree with me.

No, again. All sensations ultimately occur in the brain. That's where the electrical impulses generated by the sensory equipment are converted into a perceivable sense. So the vision of "reality" occurs inside your brain. As does the smell, the taste, the touch etc...they are all created in the brain. This is fundamental science, so not too sure what you are trying to say. It seems you may be the one confusing any intelligibility here.

www.brainfacts.org...

Brain facts are not body facts. We’re not talking about strictly one organ. The sensory cortex is not the only part of the sensory system, which is not the only system of the larger system, the body. Sensory receptors, receptor molecules, chemoreceptors, mechanoreceptors etc. etc. etc. are all parts of the sensory system, and of you. It’s all one chain, and when a single link is broken, whether in the brain or not, a sense is affected or lost. There’s more of you than just a brain. Step on a nail and tell me that pain is in your brain. We don’t grab our brains when we twist our knee. There’s no mind telling us we twisted our knee. The whole body is.

Your sense of the world is dependent on the entire chain of the body. I fixed the bold in your quote

Our senses connect us to the world. Through complex systems that begin with cells that respond to physical stimuli and send signals through a maze of brain circuits, we can know—both consciously and otherwise—what goes on around us and within our bodies.

It’s a dynamic process. The brain is not simply a receiving station for sensory signals, and what we see, hear, and feel are constantly shaped by emotions, memories, moods, and beliefs. Our sense of the world is a creation of the brain, and the same physical sensation may be experienced quite differently at different times of life, and even from day to day.

I think you bolded the wrong part, opting for the part that states that our sense of the world is affected by emotions, memory, mood and age, because was the only sentence that fits with your solipsistic world-view.

Yes, experience of sound is subjective and depends on the mind, but only because the mind is the body, and like all things, we need a body to experience anything.

a reply to: Visitor2012

Your opinions of it and of the OBE'ers you talk to, has nothing to do with your personal actions and spiritual endeavors so don't blame them.

Leave those poor little witch-doctors and Shaman's out of this, and just say 'I don't want to know if its real or not, I'd rather belief it isn't real and call myself a practical, sensible and down to earth person as I try to convince others as well.


Fair enough?

I’m going to let you dictate what I can and cannot do because you can have an OBE? That’s a fat chance. You brought it up. You wanted to talk about it. I'm tired of hearing about it frankly. It’s not even the topic of this thread. Like I said, if you find any use for your “gift”, let me know. Until then, let's find something more interesting to talk about.

a reply to: midicon

Don't you find it strange that you...clever and knowing as you are...lack clarity of vision. That is why I say something is amiss.

It's ok Midicon, really, I have no problem with whatever you think about me. I happen to enjoy the 'quirks' of my personality. As long as people think something's amiss, I've succeeded in my job of keeping that one piece hidden from them.

I wanted to write something beautiful.
And then I realized...
I would have to become beautiful,
And then I was lost…
Then my love touched me, and gave me a gift
And the gift was her touch…

Love is the most beautiful thing

Kudos for the poem, something similar happened to me.

I can understand why you would not want to relate what happened to you...but you want others to share. You say come back in a few months and we will talk about it. In reality we should reverse our roles in this conversation!

No, the only thing that is needed here is experience with what ones talking about..mainly OBE's. And as far as that's concerned, I've had my share. I enjoyed our conversation as well.

a reply to: Aphorism

I’m going to let you dictate what I can and cannot do because you can have an OBE? That’s a fat chance. You brought it up. You wanted to talk about it. I'm tired of hearing about it frankly. It’s not even the topic of this thread. Like I said, if you find any use for your “gift”, let me know. Until then, let's find something more interesting to talk about.

You said that we are JUST our bodies and condescending others who say otherwise. That just BEGGED for an OBE'er to get involved. You don't want the subject of OBE's to come up? Fine. Then don't make such silly claims. Especially if you've never explored the subject A to Z, beyond your surmises. Otherwise, I thought it was very relevant.

In reply to: midicon

'finding thyself' are empty words to me, because it's all mind babble. The self knows itself already, it's the mind, enchanted by the five senses, that's lost. Not the self. The self is just fine, no serpents, no burdens or nonsense. Wake up from the enchantment with the five senses and the 'self' is right there, shining bright as always.

The realization, which I've purely STUMBLED upon, despite my tireless efforts (to make things honest, I have to use that disclaimer) , answered all of my questions and taught me everything I needed to know about my body and it's 'physical' environment. And it did so without speaking a single word. So I'm probably the last guy you should be 'helping' by pasting quotes. I reject EVERY sentence ever written and every word ever spoken. That's how profound my experience was.

Well, ok, I suppose there are a few words that have meaning to me. But I'm keeping those secret...

a reply to: midicon

Very good. Yes this thread is parallel to Nietzche's Zarathustra, particularly the chapter "On the despisers of the Body." He's the only philosopher I've read that sees the body as a heuristic principle.

Quote from Osho:

"Zarathustra is alone amongst the great teachers of the world who is not against the body, but for the body. All the other teachers are against the body, and their reasoning is that the body is a hindrance in the growth of the soul, the body is a barrier between you and the divine. This is sheer nonsense."

Quotes from "On the Despisers of the Body"":

I want to speak to the despisers of the body. I would not have them learn and teach differently, but merely say farewell to their own bodies—and thus become silent.

“Body am I, and soul”—thus speaks the child. And why should one not speak like children?

But the awakened and knowing say: body am I entirely, and nothing else; and soul is only a word for something about the body.

“I,” you say, and are proud of the word. But greater is that in which you do not wish to have faith—your body and its great reason: that does not say “I,” but does “I.”

What the sense feels, what the spirit knows, never has its end itself. But sense and spirit would persuade you that they are the end of all things: that is how vain they are. Instruments and toys are sense and spirit: behind them still lies the self. The self also seeks with the eyes of the senses; it also listens with the ears of the spirit. Always the self listens and seeks: it compares, overpowers, conquers, destroys. It controls, and it is in control of the ego too.

Behind your thoughts and feelings, my brother, there stands a mighty ruler, an unknown sage—whose name is self. In your body he dwells; he is your body.

a reply to: Visitor2012

It's ok Midicon, really, I have no problem with whatever you think about me.

Let me tell you what I think...and it isn't bad.

I think you do yourself a disservice...

I do not place myself above you in some way. I say that lest you think I do. In fact I think you are very clever. Saying you have a blind spot was never a put down and it isn't something I would normally say.

My daughter told me the other day that she had been reading Eckhart Tolle and I was a little dismissive of him. A sad reflection on me I know. Then she said 'but he just says what you say' and we both laughed...but it made me think.

I too have my blind spots...sometimes we need reminded...

midicon.

a reply to: Visitor2012

No, it was you who said that we are JUST our bodies and condescending others who say otherwise. That just BEGGED for an OBE'er to get involved. You don't want the subject of OBE's to come up? Fine. Then don't make such silly claims. Especially if you've never explored the subject beyond your thoughts and surmises. Otherwise, I thought it was very relevant.

Apparently there are people who don't believe they actually leave the body when having an OBE. Do you negate their experience? I don't wish to.

a reply to: Aphorism

One example is found in John, where it is expressed that we should not love the world or the things in it, and that we should rather reserve that love for God. I find such paradoxes almost sickening, because we are of the world and things in it.

Did you not know that by showing love to others you are in fact loving God?

the idea you're speaking of in John is basically saying don't love material possessions... its pointless because you can't take them with you

a reply to: Akragon

Did you not know that by showing love to others you are in fact loving God?

the idea you're speaking of in John is basically saying don't love material possessions... its pointless because you can't take them with you

People are of the world, are they not?

a reply to: Aphorism

You have impressed me...

Very observant of you.

That is where I am.