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originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: midicon
Is there an inside and outside to the 'body' you say you are?
If you are the 'whole shebang' would you agree that you are the perceiver AND the perceived?
originally posted by: midicon
originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: midicon
Is there an inside and outside to the 'body' you say you are?
If you are the 'whole shebang' would you agree that you are the perceiver AND the perceived?
Of course we can look at the idea of there being an outside and an inside from many different perspectives.
I can only call it as I see, understand and feel it.
I say I am the whole shebang ( I am beginning to regret that particular phrase ) meaning I cannot be anything other than subjective.
This body is my universe.
I do understand that 'I', that is this sense of self I think and feel I am may be illusory...fine by me. But if I am illusory then what is left...the body of course.
Spiritual people for some reason deny life...isn't that strange? They seem to regard this living body...and let's not forget how marvellous and mysterious it is...as somehow not enough...there has to be more.
I know you haven't discussed this, and going by the nature of its adherents, I would suggest you don't, I think the whole out of the body experience is really an into the body experience.
Midicon.
Sound is also the vibrations travelling through a medium picked up by the ear.
I'm sorry but the sense organ must come into contact with something before any sense of touch occurs.
Perhaps dream wasn’t the best word. Maybe hallucination would have worked better.
I know a man with a brain injury who tells me he lives in the future, and that he’s come back to warn of us of our impending doom. I know someone who has talked to Jesus about the best taco recipe, after consuming narcotics. I know a man who suffered from bad dehydration, who swore he saw heaven. I don’t doubt their experiences. Who would lie about such things?
Perhaps they are on to something far bigger than anything I can imagine, or they have simply modified the body in such a way so that they can have these “mystical” experiences.
Because one has to meditate or otherwise deprive the body of certain functions or be half asleep to have these experiences is enough for me to see the hallucinogenic nature of them.
I prefer the less romantic and fantastical view of things for the sake of clarity, and don’t think any of these sorts of experiences have any positive bearing on spirituality and how we live our lives.
Yes go play in the mind as a ghost; that's what it's there for—escape.
Is the body not alive? I will not deny what I am.
I can see from what you have said that you have no real insight into anything. You have to learn some honesty and how to be true to yourself ... And somehow accomplish that without being annoyed at me.
If I wanted to play it safe I would not be here. Why would I erase averything I have ever written about spirituality?
Do you find the question I asked about subjectivity somehow offensive?
Isn't it strange that in reality those that declare themseves the most spiritual... Are in fact the least.
Spirituality has nothing to do with out of the body experiences.
Do you know what annoys me to no end? Is people who have no direct experience talking as if they are knowledgable about the subject. But with you, you're not really saying anything in your post. Is there a specific argument you're trying to make? Or do you just like throwing out meaningless spiritual sound bites?
Marvelous. If you've yet to transcend Mind/body perception, you have NO business writing ANYTHING about spirituality. And once you do transcend that limited perception, through DIRECT experience, you'll see just how ludicrous you sound. You're not fooling anybody here.
Why would I take anything you say offensive? You can't help saying what you're saying. Let me try and guess. You've read all the books, did some meditation, spent the remaining of your time pontificating reality and now voila! Now your an armchair philosopher / mystic. Am I close?
You gave me some advice, I gave you some in return it seemed appropriate and you aren’t really saying anything either...maybe I missed something.
I have no argument I merely asked a question. Isn’t it strange the way you react?
Perhaps you are annoyed because I haven’t claimed anything that I have no knowledge of and you are really just looking for an argument.
Well I suppose that’s me told...I’m just wondering who put you in charge...
I don’t understand why I would want to fool anyone...another strange display of hostility.
And if I sound ludicrous who cares? But let me ask, if I may, are you presenting yourself as someone that has transcended?
And there you have it...a life summed up in half a dozen sentences. First you bet and now you guess.
And that life you describe would be heaven for some. Your words display a lack of wisdom.
You have things completely backwards. Sound is vibration, but it isn't sound until the vibration is converted to sound and where does that happen? You guessed it, in the brain.
sound 1 |sound|
noun
1 vibrations that travel through the air or another medium and can be heard when they reach a person's or animal's ear: light travels faster than sound.
• a thing that can be heard: she heard the sound of voices in the hall | don't make a sound.
• the area or distance within which something can be heard: we were always within sound of the train whistles.
The sense of touch (meaning the sensation) occurs in the brain NOT the sense organ.
So you've talked to a few sick people big deal. One with brain injury and one with severe dehydration and a drug addict. Great pool of examples you got there. Sigh... How about talking to regular, healthy non debilitated OBE practitioners instead? What you've said has absolutely nothing to do with OBE's. An OBE is done naturally, no drugs needed, no ridiculous narcotics or deprivation.
Wikipedia
In many cases, people who claim to have had an OBE report being on the verge of sleep, or being already asleep shortly before the experience. A large percentage of these cases refer to situations where the sleep was not particularly deep (due to illness, noises in other rooms, emotional stress, exhaustion from overworking, frequent re-awakening, etc.). In most of these cases the subjects then feel themselves awake; about half of them noted a feeling of sleep paralysis.[14]
Wikipedia
Mental induction[edit]
Falling asleep physically without losing wakefulness. The "Mind Awake, Body Asleep" state is widely suggested as a cause of OBEs, voluntary and otherwise.[22]
Deep trance, meditation and visualization. The types of visualizations vary; some common imageries used include climbing a rope to "pull out" of one's body, floating out of one's body, getting shot out of a cannon, and other similar approaches. This technique is considered hard to use for people who cannot properly relax. One example of such a technique is the popular Golden Dawn "Body of Light" Technique.[27]
Mechanical induction[edit]
Brainwave synchronization via audio/visual stimulation. Binaural beats can be used to induce specific brainwave frequencies,[28] notably those predominant in various mind awake/body asleep states. Binaural induction of a "body asleep" 4 Hertz brainwave frequency was observed as effective by the Monroe Institute,[29] and some authors consider binaural beats to be significantly supportive of OBE initiation when used in conjunction with other techniques.[30][31] Simultaneous introduction of "mind awake" beta frequencies (detectable in the brains of normal, relaxed awakened individuals) was also observed as constructive. Another popular technology uses sinusoidal wave pulses to achieve similar results, and the drumming accompanying native American religious ceremonies is also believed to have heightened receptivity to "other worlds" through brainwave entrainment mechanisms.[32]
Magnetic stimulation of the brain, as with the God helmet developed by Michael Persinger.[33]
Direct stimulation of the vestibular cortex.[34]
Electrical stimulation of the brain, particularly the temporoparietal junction (See Blanke study below).
Sensory deprivation. This approach aims to encourage intense disorientation by removal of space and time references. Flotation tanks or pink noise played through headphones are often employed for this purpose.[35]
Sensory overload, the opposite of sensory deprivation. The subject can for instance be rocked for a long time in a specially designed cradle, or submitted to light forms of torture, to cause the brain to shut itself off from all sensory input. Both conditions tend to cause confusion and this disorientation often permits the subject to experience vivid, ethereal out-of-body experiences.[36]
Wikipedia
Chemical induction[edit]
• OBEs induced with drugs are sometimes considered to be hallucinations (i.e., purely subjective), even by those who believe the phenomenon to be objective in general. There are several types of drugs that can initiate an OBE, primarily the dissociative hallucinogens such as ketamine, dextromethorphan (DM or DXM), and phencyclidine (PCP). It has also been reported under the influence of tryptamine psychedelics includingdimethyltryptamine ('___') from ayahuasca. Salvia divinorum has been known to produce symptoms in which the user is said to be able to leave his or her body and travel to many places at once. Many users also claim that they feel as if their "soul" falls out of their body.
• Methamphetamine has also been known to cause OBEs, not in itself but through lack of sleep. It has been reported that it felt like the person was talking above and behind them and, being under the influence of the drug, had no idea what was happening.
• Galantamine is a nootropic that can increase the odds of success when using along with out-of-body experience or lucid dream induction techniques.[37][38][39]
Wikipedia
Resulting from extreme physical effort[edit]
Along the same lines as an NDE, extreme physical effort during activities such as high-altitude climbing and marathon running can induce OBEs. A sense of bilocation may be apparent, with both ground and air-based perspectives being experienced simultaneously.[16]
You're right. So called 'spirituality' has NOTHING to do with anything. Transcending Mind and body, on the other hand, has ALL to do with everything. We have enough 'spiritual' people running around, sounding like Yoda, pretending to be wise and holy, calling themselves teachers. What we need now are people who have the courage and desire to transcend their imaginative beliefs, spiritual nonsense, and meaningless philosophical brain chatter.
Sound:
vibrations that travel through the air or another medium and can be heard when they reach a person's or animal's ear
The sense organs are required to do anything you are trying to say the brain is solely responsible for...
In one argument you’re trying to say sensations occur in the brain, yet you’re also trying to prove that the sensation of out of body experience isn’t a product of the brain. Quite a contradiction there.
It seems like a lot of literature on the subject contradicts you.
"In many cases, people who claim to have had an OBE report being on the verge of sleep, or being already asleep shortly before the experience. A large percentage of these cases refer to situations where the sleep was not particularly deep (due to illness, noises in other rooms, emotional stress, exhaustion from overworking, frequent re-awakening, etc.). In most of these cases the subjects then feel themselves awake; about half of them noted a feeling of sleep paralysis.[14]"
But I suppose you are going to write the book on OBE’s and be the only authority?
OBE’s have nothing to do with a way of life and how one treats others.
originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: InTheLight
I cannot define life but I feel alive and see life all around me.
Of course they believe in something which goes beyond...what they have is never enough.
And yet this life right here is the most beautiful thing they just can't see it.
To see beauty where others see ugliness
The mysterious in the mundane
To see the world through a child’s eyes
Is the ‘treasure hard to attain'
To neither take love...nor give love
Lest it steals you away again
Just to be love...and feel love
Is the ‘treasure hard to attain
Spirituality has nothing to do with out of the body experiences.
I can understand the viewpoint, that an out of the body experience can, to the experiencer be confirmation of being more than their body. Nothing wrong with that...I have never been dismissive of the veracity of the experience...and this is just the thread to relate it in. So tell your story but we don't need the lecture. It shouldn't take long there won't be any depth or wisdom.
And you can't speak under the 'guise' of wisdom...I knew that.
You know in real life I am very kind and very honest, sometimes to my detriment, so let me apologise and say.
I don't believe you...really about anything. You have nothing to offer anyone.
I believe a seeker should take the most direct route.
Indeed, but let's be clear you had an Out of Body Experience within your body.
Indeed, but let's be clear you had an Out of Body Experience within your body.
--hmmm....vibrations converted to hydraulic pressure....still no hearing yet----
There is NO possible way to write a book that would explain OBE's to someone who's unwilling to see for themselves. Which is why I know that everything written about it is 99% BS. That would be like trying to explain light to a person born blind. Got to see light for yourself to understand what it is, wouldn't you agree?
hearing doesn't occur in just the brain. Brains cannot hear without ears. You are not a brain in a jar. You have ears for a reason.
Yes I agree I have no experience with OBE. But then again I have no experience with sleep walking or sleep paralysis or epilepsy either, but I'm fairly certain I do not want them.
"Seeing it for yourself" requires the body. What are you seeing with your eyes closed? Perhaps you mean "dream it for yourself" or "hallucinate it for yourself"—which also requires the body.
And then what? Do I receive a membership to the spiritual club?
I prefer to sleep when I sleep. I prefer to be awake when I'm awake, not somewhere in between.
But the best contradiction so far is that an individual of bodily form is telling me he is not of bodily form.
It really doesn't matter what you believe, it is of no importance and I don't know why you think I am a seeker. You make too many assumptions.
Why would you think I am seeking something? Perhaps it's you that's seeking, if it is I would suggest you give that up.