Spiritual Reorientation 3: You are your body

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: midicon

Is there an inside and outside to the 'body' you say you are?

If you are the 'whole shebang' would you agree that you are the perceiver AND the perceived?

Of course we can look at the idea of there being an outside and an inside from many different perspectives.
I can only call it as I see, understand and feel it.
I say I am the whole shebang ( I am beginning to regret that particular phrase ) meaning I cannot be anything other than subjective.
This body is my universe.

I do understand that 'I', that is this sense of self I think and feel I am may be illusory...fine by me. But if I am illusory then what is left...the body of course.

Spiritual people for some reason deny life...isn't that strange? They seem to regard this living body...and let's not forget how marvellous and mysterious it is...as somehow not enough...there has to be more.

I know you haven't discussed this, and going by the nature of its adherents, I would suggest you don't, I think the whole out of the body experience is really an into the body experience.

Midicon.

originally posted by: midicon

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: midicon

Is there an inside and outside to the 'body' you say you are?

If you are the 'whole shebang' would you agree that you are the perceiver AND the perceived?

Of course we can look at the idea of there being an outside and an inside from many different perspectives.
I can only call it as I see, understand and feel it.
I say I am the whole shebang ( I am beginning to regret that particular phrase ) meaning I cannot be anything other than subjective.
This body is my universe.

I do understand that 'I', that is this sense of self I think and feel I am may be illusory...fine by me. But if I am illusory then what is left...the body of course.

Spiritual people for some reason deny life...isn't that strange? They seem to regard this living body...and let's not forget how marvellous and mysterious it is...as somehow not enough...there has to be more.

I know you haven't discussed this, and going by the nature of its adherents, I would suggest you don't, I think the whole out of the body experience is really an into the body experience.

Midicon.

I don't find that spiritual people deny life, they believe in the existence of a life force that which goes beyond the physical senses and boundaries. How do you define 'life'?

a reply to: InTheLight


I cannot define life but I feel alive and see life all around me.
Of course they believe in something which goes beyond...what they have is never enough.
And yet this life right here is the most beautiful thing they just can't see it.

To see beauty where others see ugliness
The mysterious in the mundane
To see the world through a child’s eyes
Is the ‘treasure hard to attain'

To neither take love...nor give love
Lest it steals you away again
Just to be love...and feel love
Is the ‘treasure hard to attain

Spirituality has nothing to do with out of the body experiences.

a reply to: Aphorism

Sound is also the vibrations travelling through a medium picked up by the ear.

You have things completely backwards. Sound is vibration, but it isn't sound until the vibration is converted to sound and where does that happen? You guessed it, in the brain. Sound isn't heard when vibrations hit the ear drums, it's heard when the brain processes the vibrations transmitted from the ear drum and converts it to the sound you hear. Wow, this is high school knowledge ? Did you pay attention in class?

I'm sorry but the sense organ must come into contact with something before any sense of touch occurs.

That, is very obvious but you didn't get what I said. Let me say it again. The sense of touch (meaning the sensation) occurs in the brain NOT the sense organ.

Perhaps dream wasn’t the best word. Maybe hallucination would have worked better.

Not even remotely close. You keep referring to less-conscious states. An OBE is the EXACT opposite of unconsciousness, it is the exact opposite of a hallucination. But there is NO way for you to understand that because you've never had one. I've experienced both so I know the difference. A real OBE (Not astral projection) is MORE awake than normal life. So , once again, your idea of it is laughable at best. Then again, you would know ALL of this if you took the time to try it. Arguing with your imaginative idea of something you have no experience in, is a waste of time.

I know a man with a brain injury who tells me he lives in the future, and that he’s come back to warn of us of our impending doom. I know someone who has talked to Jesus about the best taco recipe, after consuming narcotics. I know a man who suffered from bad dehydration, who swore he saw heaven. I don’t doubt their experiences. Who would lie about such things?

So you've talked to a few sick people big deal. One with brain injury and one with severe dehydration and a drug addict. Great pool of examples you got there. Sigh... How about talking to regular, healthy non debilitated OBE practitioners instead? What you've said has absolutely nothing to do with OBE's. An OBE is done naturally, no drugs needed, no ridiculous narcotics or deprivation.

Perhaps they are on to something far bigger than anything I can imagine, or they have simply modified the body in such a way so that they can have these “mystical” experiences.

Perhaps..perhaps. Keep guessing or try it yourself.

Because one has to meditate or otherwise deprive the body of certain functions or be half asleep to have these experiences is enough for me to see the hallucinogenic nature of them.

Nice try. No meditation needed, no deprivation or half asleep needed and no hallucinogens needed.

I prefer the less romantic and fantastical view of things for the sake of clarity, and don’t think any of these sorts of experiences have any positive bearing on spirituality and how we live our lives.

You mean those experiences you've never had? No, you PREFER the imaginative view of things. Thats just it. You have NO view of OBE's, just guesses and every single one of them couldn't be further from the mark.

Yes go play in the mind as a ghost; that's what it's there for—escape.

No, that's what you're doing by talking about something you don't have the courage to try yourself.

a reply to: midicon

Is the body not alive? I will not deny what I am.

Huh? Who said the body isn't alive?

I can see from what you have said that you have no real insight into anything. You have to learn some honesty and how to be true to yourself ... And somehow accomplish that without being annoyed at me.

Do you know what annoys me to no end? Is people who have no direct experience talking as if they are knowledgable about the subject. But with you, you're not really saying anything in your post. Is there a specific argument you're trying to make? Or do you just like throwing out meaningless spiritual sound bites?

If I wanted to play it safe I would not be here. Why would I erase averything I have ever written about spirituality?

Marvelous. If you've yet to transcend Mind/body perception, you have NO business writing ANYTHING about spirituality. And once you do transcend that limited perception, through DIRECT experience (not through beliefs or imaginative thoughts and ideas), you'll see just how ludicrous you sound. You're not fooling anybody here.

Do you find the question I asked about subjectivity somehow offensive?

Why would I take anything you say offensive? You can't help saying what you're saying. Let me try and guess. You've read all the books, did some meditation, spent the remaining of your time contemplating reality and now voila! Now your an armchair spiritual philosopher / mystic. Am I close?

Isn't it strange that in reality those that declare themseves the most spiritual... Are in fact the least.

Finally something you've said that I can agree with. Only an IDIOT would DECLARE that he/she is spiritual, let alone 'Most spiritual'.

a reply to: midicon

Spirituality has nothing to do with out of the body experiences.

You're right. So called 'spirituality' has NOTHING to do with anything. Transcending Mind and body, on the other hand, has ALL to do with everything. We have enough 'spiritual' people running around, sounding like Yoda, pretending to be wise and holy, calling themselves teachers. What we need now are people who have the courage and desire to transcend their imaginative beliefs, spiritual nonsense, and meaningless philosophical brain chatter.

a reply to: Visitor2012

Do you know what annoys me to no end? Is people who have no direct experience talking as if they are knowledgable about the subject. But with you, you're not really saying anything in your post. Is there a specific argument you're trying to make? Or do you just like throwing out meaningless spiritual sound bites?

You gave me some advice, I gave you some in return it seemed appropriate and you aren’t really saying anything either...maybe I missed something.
I have no argument I merely asked a question. Isn’t it strange the way you react?
If I have managed to throw out any sort of spiritual sound bytes...I’ll take that as a compliment.
Perhaps you are annoyed because I haven’t claimed anything that I have no knowledge of and you are really just looking for an argument.

Marvelous. If you've yet to transcend Mind/body perception, you have NO business writing ANYTHING about spirituality. And once you do transcend that limited perception, through DIRECT experience, you'll see just how ludicrous you sound. You're not fooling anybody here.

Well I suppose that’s me told...I’m just wondering who put you in charge...
I don’t understand why I would want to fool anyone...another strange display of hostility.
And if I sound ludicrous who cares? But let me ask, if I may, are you presenting yourself as someone that has transcended?

Why would I take anything you say offensive? You can't help saying what you're saying. Let me try and guess. You've read all the books, did some meditation, spent the remaining of your time pontificating reality and now voila! Now your an armchair philosopher / mystic. Am I close?

And there you have it...a life summed up in half a dozen sentences. First you bet and now you guess.
And that life you describe would be heaven for some. Your words display a lack of wisdom.

a reply to: midicon

You gave me some advice, I gave you some in return it seemed appropriate and you aren’t really saying anything either...maybe I missed something.

Agreed, you've missed everything I've said.

I have no argument I merely asked a question. Isn’t it strange the way you react?

What's so strange about being annoyed with someone who's talking out of their rear end? It's quite natural. Or does my natural human emotion go against your spiritual ideologies?

Perhaps you are annoyed because I haven’t claimed anything that I have no knowledge of and you are really just looking for an argument.

I already explained the reason. Relax, it's not THAT serious. I'm relaxing on my balcony with my ipad, feeling the cool Ocean breeze and the Sun on my face.

Well I suppose that’s me told...I’m just wondering who put you in charge...
I don’t understand why I would want to fool anyone...another strange display of hostility.

I'm in charge? Says who? I didn't and I don't want to be. NO THANKS...

And if I sound ludicrous who cares? But let me ask, if I may, are you presenting yourself as someone that has transcended?

I'm presenting myself in this thread as someone who has experienced actual OBE's.

And there you have it...a life summed up in half a dozen sentences. First you bet and now you guess.
And that life you describe would be heaven for some. Your words display a lack of wisdom.

I don't speak under the guise of wisdom, I, unlike you, speak from DIRECT experience with OBE's. If a guy sees the Sun with his own eyes, I wouldn't call him speaking about it 'wisdom' nor would he need to be wise to speak about it.

a reply to: Visitor2012

You have things completely backwards. Sound is vibration, but it isn't sound until the vibration is converted to sound and where does that happen? You guessed it, in the brain.

Once again:

sound 1 |sound|
noun
1 vibrations that travel through the air or another medium and can be heard when they reach a person's or animal's ear: light travels faster than sound.
• a thing that can be heard: she heard the sound of voices in the hall | don't make a sound.
• the area or distance within which something can be heard: we were always within sound of the train whistles.

The sense of touch (meaning the sensation) occurs in the brain NOT the sense organ.

That is simply untrue. The whole system is required to sense anything. Is a brain in a jar able to touch? Not likely. The sense organs are required to do anything you are trying to say the brain is solely responsible for. It doesn't accomplish anything but to confuse intelligibility to separate the two.

In one argument you’re trying to say sensations occur in the brain, yet you’re also trying to prove that the sensation of out of body experience isn’t a product of the brain. Quite a contradiction there.

So you've talked to a few sick people big deal. One with brain injury and one with severe dehydration and a drug addict. Great pool of examples you got there. Sigh... How about talking to regular, healthy non debilitated OBE practitioners instead? What you've said has absolutely nothing to do with OBE's. An OBE is done naturally, no drugs needed, no ridiculous narcotics or deprivation.

In many cases, people who claim to have had an OBE report being on the verge of sleep, or being already asleep shortly before the experience. A large percentage of these cases refer to situations where the sleep was not particularly deep (due to illness, noises in other rooms, emotional stress, exhaustion from overworking, frequent re-awakening, etc.). In most of these cases the subjects then feel themselves awake; about half of them noted a feeling of sleep paralysis.[14]

Wikipedia

Mental induction[edit]
Falling asleep physically without losing wakefulness. The "Mind Awake, Body Asleep" state is widely suggested as a cause of OBEs, voluntary and otherwise.[22]

Deep trance, meditation and visualization. The types of visualizations vary; some common imageries used include climbing a rope to "pull out" of one's body, floating out of one's body, getting shot out of a cannon, and other similar approaches. This technique is considered hard to use for people who cannot properly relax. One example of such a technique is the popular Golden Dawn "Body of Light" Technique.[27]

Wikipedia

Mechanical induction[edit]
Brainwave synchronization via audio/visual stimulation. Binaural beats can be used to induce specific brainwave frequencies,[28] notably those predominant in various mind awake/body asleep states. Binaural induction of a "body asleep" 4 Hertz brainwave frequency was observed as effective by the Monroe Institute,[29] and some authors consider binaural beats to be significantly supportive of OBE initiation when used in conjunction with other techniques.[30][31] Simultaneous introduction of "mind awake" beta frequencies (detectable in the brains of normal, relaxed awakened individuals) was also observed as constructive. Another popular technology uses sinusoidal wave pulses to achieve similar results, and the drumming accompanying native American religious ceremonies is also believed to have heightened receptivity to "other worlds" through brainwave entrainment mechanisms.[32]
Magnetic stimulation of the brain, as with the God helmet developed by Michael Persinger.[33]
Direct stimulation of the vestibular cortex.[34]
Electrical stimulation of the brain, particularly the temporoparietal junction (See Blanke study below).
Sensory deprivation. This approach aims to encourage intense disorientation by removal of space and time references. Flotation tanks or pink noise played through headphones are often employed for this purpose.[35]
Sensory overload, the opposite of sensory deprivation. The subject can for instance be rocked for a long time in a specially designed cradle, or submitted to light forms of torture, to cause the brain to shut itself off from all sensory input. Both conditions tend to cause confusion and this disorientation often permits the subject to experience vivid, ethereal out-of-body experiences.[36]

Chemical induction[edit]
• OBEs induced with drugs are sometimes considered to be hallucinations (i.e., purely subjective), even by those who believe the phenomenon to be objective in general. There are several types of drugs that can initiate an OBE, primarily the dissociative hallucinogens such as ketamine, dextromethorphan (DM or DXM), and phencyclidine (PCP). It has also been reported under the influence of tryptamine psychedelics includingdimethyltryptamine ('___') from ayahuasca. Salvia divinorum has been known to produce symptoms in which the user is said to be able to leave his or her body and travel to many places at once. Many users also claim that they feel as if their "soul" falls out of their body.
• Methamphetamine has also been known to cause OBEs, not in itself but through lack of sleep. It has been reported that it felt like the person was talking above and behind them and, being under the influence of the drug, had no idea what was happening.
• Galantamine is a nootropic that can increase the odds of success when using along with out-of-body experience or lucid dream induction techniques.[37][38][39]

Wikipedia

Resulting from extreme physical effort[edit]
Along the same lines as an NDE, extreme physical effort during activities such as high-altitude climbing and marathon running can induce OBEs. A sense of bilocation may be apparent, with both ground and air-based perspectives being experienced simultaneously.[16]

Wikipedia

It seems like a lot of literature on the subject contradicts you. But I suppose you are going to write the book on OBE’s and be the only authority?

OBE’s have nothing to do with a way of life and how one treats others.

a reply to: Visitor2012

You're right. So called 'spirituality' has NOTHING to do with anything. Transcending Mind and body, on the other hand, has ALL to do with everything. We have enough 'spiritual' people running around, sounding like Yoda, pretending to be wise and holy, calling themselves teachers. What we need now are people who have the courage and desire to transcend their imaginative beliefs, spiritual nonsense, and meaningless philosophical brain chatter.

This thread is really about spirituality and the body. Now you have dismissed them both.

I can understand the viewpoint, that an out of the body experience can, to the experiencer be confirmation of being more than their body. Nothing wrong with that...I have never been dismissive of the veracity of the experience...and this is just the thread to relate it in. So tell your story but we don't need the lecture. It shouldn't take long there won't be any depth or wisdom.

And you can't speak under the 'guise' of wisdom...I knew that.

You know in real life I am very kind and very honest, sometimes to my detriment, so let me apologise and say.

I don't believe you...really about anything. You have nothing to offer anyone.

a reply to: Aphorism

Sound:
vibrations that travel through the air or another medium and can be heard when they reach a person's or animal's ear

This definition doesn't go any further than the ears. Here's a more complete explanation that explains what happens after the vibrations are felt by the ear drums. This can be found anywhere on the internet.

1. Sound waves enter your outer ear and travel to your eardrum.
2. Your eardrum vibrates from the incoming sound waves and sends these vibrations to your middle ear..

----notice although there are sound waves going through your ear, hearing hasn't happened yet. Continued..
-----

3. The bones in your middle ear amplify, the sound vibrations and send them to the cochlea.
4. The sound vibrations cause the fluid inside your cochlea to ripple, and a traveling wave forms along the membrane, where the sound wave is finally dispersed as hydraulic pressure.

--hmmm....vibrations converted to hydraulic pressure....still no hearing yet----

5. Which through various processes creates an electrical signal.

--Well what do you know, the hydraulic pressure has been converted to an electrical signal!

6. Your auditory nerve carries this electrical signal to your brain stem.

--still don't hear yet.

7. The brainstem sends the signal to the auditory cortex of the temporal lobes of the brain where the electrical impulses are interpreted as the sounds that we experience.


Aha! Finally the sound is heard and perceived by you and not a moment sooner. Imagine that. You're not listening to vibrations, your listening to a processed electrical signal.

Nobody's saying that the entire system isn't needed, what IS being said is that what YOU experience is what your brain generates from the sensory signal which is nothing more than an electrical impulse.

You know, like a radio receiving radio waves, converting the energy to an electric signal, sending that information to the tuner which then converts the signal to a sound you can hear. Ears are no different. You seriously need to go back to school.

The sense organs are required to do anything you are trying to say the brain is solely responsible for...

I never said the entire system wasn't required and I never said the brain is solely responsible for the entire process. My point was that you don't experience ANY sound directly from your ears. I challenge you to find one single scientific article refuting that. I said hearing 'Happens' when, and ONLY when, you receive the final output coming from your brain. Prior to that, even if someone is screaming in your fully functioning ear, you hear jack squat!

In one argument you’re trying to say sensations occur in the brain, yet you’re also trying to prove that the sensation of out of body experience isn’t a product of the brain. Quite a contradiction there.

Where did I say that 'OBE sensations' (a ridiculous term to use) isn't a product of the brain? And show me where I tried to prove such a thing? All along I've been trying to convince you to directly experience it yourself. I'm not into proving things to lazy people. I promote DIRECT experience ONLY. But for some reason (and I'm more interested in finding out the why) you'd rather be spoon fed. What are you so afraid of? It's not going to kill you.

It seems like a lot of literature on the subject contradicts you.
"In many cases, people who claim to have had an OBE report being on the verge of sleep, or being already asleep shortly before the experience. A large percentage of these cases refer to situations where the sleep was not particularly deep (due to illness, noises in other rooms, emotional stress, exhaustion from overworking, frequent re-awakening, etc.). In most of these cases the subjects then feel themselves awake; about half of them noted a feeling of sleep paralysis.[14]"

You call an inconclusive and pointless, scientific survey literature? A source of authority on the subject? Look, just play it safe and take the word of a survey taking researcher who, like you, has no direct experience with the subject matter and can only sift through the data and guess. How insanely dull.

But I suppose you are going to write the book on OBE’s and be the only authority?

There is NO possible way to write a book that would explain OBE's to someone who's unwilling to see for themselves. Which is why I know that everything written about it is 99% BS. That would be like trying to explain light to a person born blind. Got to see light for yourself to understand what it is, wouldn't you agree?

OBE’s have nothing to do with a way of life and how one treats others.

Absolutely right, I'm glad you realize that. This thread is about the identification with the Body. Morality and ethics have nothing to do with it. Nor does your opinion about the 'positive' spiritual implications of OBE's.

originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: InTheLight


I cannot define life but I feel alive and see life all around me.
Of course they believe in something which goes beyond...what they have is never enough.
And yet this life right here is the most beautiful thing they just can't see it.

To see beauty where others see ugliness
The mysterious in the mundane
To see the world through a child’s eyes
Is the ‘treasure hard to attain'

To neither take love...nor give love
Lest it steals you away again
Just to be love...and feel love
Is the ‘treasure hard to attain

Spirituality has nothing to do with out of the body experiences.

Indeed, but let's be clear you had an Out of Body Experience within your body.

a reply to: midicon

I can understand the viewpoint, that an out of the body experience can, to the experiencer be confirmation of being more than their body. Nothing wrong with that...I have never been dismissive of the veracity of the experience...and this is just the thread to relate it in. So tell your story but we don't need the lecture. It shouldn't take long there won't be any depth or wisdom.

I believe a seeker should take the most direct route. Take a few months, and try to trigger an OBE. When you succeed (anyone can do it), come back and we can talk. I don't tell bedtime stories.

And you can't speak under the 'guise' of wisdom...I knew that.

Nice. You don't need wisdom to talk about OBE's, you need OBE's to talk about OBE's. For instance, Have you ever seen the Ocean? If so, would it take wisdom for you to tell someone else about it? No.

You know in real life I am very kind and very honest, sometimes to my detriment, so let me apologise and say.
I don't believe you...really about anything. You have nothing to offer anyone.

No apologies necessary, that's really good news. You shouldn't believe anything you're told no matter who it's coming from. As a seeker of truth, you probably already found out that beliefs lead to nowhere. Actually, that's the first step to being a seeker, to throw away all beliefs, and preconceived ideas.

a reply to: Visitor2012

I believe a seeker should take the most direct route.

It really doesn't matter what you believe, it is of no importance and I don't know why you think I am a seeker. You make too many assumptions.
Why would you think I am seeking something? Perhaps it's you that's seeking, if it is I would suggest you give that up.

a reply to: InTheLight

Indeed, but let's be clear you had an Out of Body Experience within your body.

I'm not sure what you mean, I think you are agreeing with me.

Did you like my little ryhme...I made it up for you.

a reply to: InTheLight

Indeed, but let's be clear you had an Out of Body Experience within your body.

I left it too late to edit my last post, let me ask you...

Are you saying that I have had an out of the body experience?

If so then you are very astute...

a reply to: Visitor2012

--hmmm....vibrations converted to hydraulic pressure....still no hearing yet----

Yes hearing is different than sound isn't it? Because you said sound occurs in the brain if you don't recall. Perhaps a confusion of terms. Even so, hearing doesn't occur in just the brain. Brains cannot hear without ears. You are not a brain in a jar. You have ears for a reason.

There is NO possible way to write a book that would explain OBE's to someone who's unwilling to see for themselves. Which is why I know that everything written about it is 99% BS. That would be like trying to explain light to a person born blind. Got to see light for yourself to understand what it is, wouldn't you agree?

Yes I agree I have no experience with OBE. But then again I have no experience with sleep walking or sleep paralysis or epilepsy either, but I'm fairly certain I do not want them.

"Seeing it for yourself" requires the body. What are you seeing with your eyes closed? Perhaps you mean "dream it for yourself" or "hallucinate it for yourself"—which also requires the body. And then what? Do I receive a membership to the spiritual club? I prefer to sleep when I sleep. I prefer to be awake when I'm awake, not somewhere in between.

But the best contradiction so far is that an individual of bodily form is telling me he is not of bodily form. You have yet to escape yourself, for you remain there to this day.

Hey Aphorism, didn't you promise Wildtimes that you would read a particular book or two? Have you read them? IIRC that was a couple of months ago, seems to me you've had plenty of time.

a reply to: Aphorism

hearing doesn't occur in just the brain. Brains cannot hear without ears. You are not a brain in a jar. You have ears for a reason.

All perception be it auditory or visual HAPPENS in the brain. You don't perceive nor recognize ANYTHING prior to the brain's processing of the electrical signals coming from your sense organs. Thus why I said, 'The sound you hear is happening in your head' . If you don't already know that, then it's hopeless.
Enough with hearing. Let's get back to OBE.

Yes I agree I have no experience with OBE. But then again I have no experience with sleep walking or sleep paralysis or epilepsy either, but I'm fairly certain I do not want them.

This is the crux of the matter. I don't see you telling people what epilepsy is and isn't, I don't see you telling people what sleep walking is or isn't. Because , like you said, you have NO experience with it. Fair enough. So, it begs the question, why are you on here telling people what an OBE is and isn't?

"Seeing it for yourself" requires the body. What are you seeing with your eyes closed? Perhaps you mean "dream it for yourself" or "hallucinate it for yourself"—which also requires the body.

Well you'll just have to stay on the side lines and keep guessing won't you? How can you even begin to call yourself a skeptic, if you haven't honestly pursued the subject matter? What are you so afraid of?

And then what? Do I receive a membership to the spiritual club?

No, But at least you'll have some ground to stand on when arguing with other OBE'ers. Wouldn't you agree?

Because, what you're doing now, is equivalent to a non-swimmer standing on the beach telling a scuba diver what he is or isn't experiencing while underwater, and supporting your views with articles written by other non-swimmers. Don't you see how silly that is? Considering how relatively easy it is to experience an OBE, you have absolutely no excuse for this.

I prefer to sleep when I sleep. I prefer to be awake when I'm awake, not somewhere in between.

With all due respect, on the topic of body/mind perception, you haven't even begun to explore the subject.

But the best contradiction so far is that an individual of bodily form is telling me he is not of bodily form.

That would be a contradiction INDEED. Tell me where I made the mistake of saying that and I'll correct that statement. My bodily form is most certainly a part of me. But I am not just my body. But that's a topic reserved for those who diligently explore the subject matter. You're not going to get any freebies from me until you put in the work like everyone else.

a reply to: midicon

It really doesn't matter what you believe, it is of no importance and I don't know why you think I am a seeker. You make too many assumptions.
Why would you think I am seeking something? Perhaps it's you that's seeking, if it is I would suggest you give that up.

There are four types of people on the planet.
1.Those who are seeking
2. Those who have found
3. Those who gave up looking
4. And those who don't give a crap one way or the other.

So if you're not a seeker, which one of these are you?