Spiritual Reorientation 3: You are your body

a reply to: midicon

Taken out of context a bit...I am merely saying I am the body. It is a declaration of unity not one of division. Are my ears and eyes not part of me? And thanks for letting me know who is listening and hearing.

Does a microphone listen?

What and who am I when I leave my body on an OBE? I am still me without my corporal body, but I still retain (or choose to retain?) my perceived/believed physical state (as a hologram?) during the OBE. Or do I create my varying physical realities to suit the state I find myself in, or are these varying states my actual physical and energy bodies residing in different dimensions?

a reply to: Visitor2012

Oh dear...I thought my ears were made up of living cells and were part of me.

I did say I was the whole shebang...

a reply to: Visitor2012

Seekers should be very mindful of their assumptions. EVERYTHING you see, and hear is the resulting output of what your brain and nervous system presents to you and that's ALL happening inside yourself. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

A flurry of rhetorical questions.

What is it that everything we see and hear is presented to? Something hidden inside the body? Or is it that everything we see is presented to the body and I at the same time? They are the same thing and always have been.

Is it that the eyes are not fixated on anything, only the brain is? and when we hear, we are not hearing anything but our nervous system and brain? What about when we feel? Are we touching our with these organs only? Brains don't think or see or hear. Only bodies do, and by bodies I mean beings who say "I" when referring to themselves.

The ghost sees nothing because it is nothing. Where does the brain and the rest of the body meet? One the two are torn apart, neither one works, and saying one does something without the other is somewhat crude, but likely deeply embedded in our language.

a reply to: InTheLight

What and who am I when I leave my body on an OBE? I am still me without my corporal body, but I still retain (or choose to retain?) my perceived/believed physical state (as a hologram?) during the OBE. Or do I create my varying physical realities to suit the state I find myself in, or are these varying states my actual physical and energy bodies residing in different dimensions?

Why do you return to the body, or why don't you enter another? Perhaps because you never left in the first place. We can do anything when we dream, and then we wake up.

a reply to: InTheLight

How do you know that these are not subjective experiences?

Could it be that astral projection is really the exact opposite of what it suggests.

Inner rather than outer, that's said not to devalue your experience but meant in a sort of Jungian, alchemical, shamanistic kind of way.

originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: InTheLight

How do you know that these are not subjective experiences?

Could it be that astral projection is really the exact opposite of what it suggests.

Inner rather than outer, that's said not to devalue your experience but meant in a sort of Jungian, alchemical, shamanistic kind of way.

Inner AND outer, simultaneously, is the Jungian alchemical shamanic way pal.

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: InTheLight

 

What and who am I when I leave my body on an OBE? I am still me without my corporal body, but I still retain (or choose to retain?) my perceived/believed physical state (as a hologram?) during the OBE. Or do I create my varying physical realities to suit the state I find myself in, or are these varying states my actual physical and energy bodies residing in different dimensions?

Why do you return to the body, or why don't you enter another? Perhaps because you never left in the first place. We can do anything when we dream, and then we wake up.

I returned to my corporal body because I was young and ill-prepared spiritually to venture forth into the cosmos, also I had ties with others back in the physical realm, or rather unfinished business. I would never think of entering another, to me that would be a violation. What purpose would it serve entering into another's body? Perhaps I did enter into another state of being on the quantum level, or another metaphysical level where the energy that is our life's force can be realized. I cannot dismiss the OBE as a dream because it was during waking meditation and the journey felt both physical and spiritual.

a reply to: BlueMule

It may well be that inner is outer really, I was asking how one can tell if it is not a subjective experience.

a reply to: midicon
Is there an inside and outside to the 'body' you say you are?
If you are the 'whole shebang' would you agree that you are the perceiver AND the perceived?

a reply to: midicon

As explained in my last post, I cannot accept that inner and outer are one, or locked together within a force field.

Which shaman do you refer to that states that the inner and outer are one?

"Those who do remember an out-of-body experience usually regard it as either the most terrifying or most ecstatic adventure of their life. Few label it as an illusion: an OBE is as numinous as anything life has to offer -- if nothing else, it is proof positive (for the subject, anyway) that consciousness can exist outside of the physical body. I experienced a fully conscious OBE in 1968, plus numerous rather "dreamy" ones in the years since. Alas, with the exception of the first time, I have so far been unable to fully initiate one. To give the reader an idea of what a conscious OBE is like, I will describe my 1968 adventure -- adapted from my book, Psychedelic Shamanism"

"What independent evidence do we have that might confirm such anomalous experiences? The first data we have, and it is considerable, is found in the literature on shamanism. Anthropologists studying tribal cultures describe the shaman as a ubiquitous (albeit unique) human figure, found world- wide, who is distinguished by his ability to function in the out-of-body state. Indeed, it is precisely this ability which defines him as a shaman:

Shamans can voluntarily enter altered states of consciousness ... in these states shamans experience themselves leaving their bodies and journeying to other realms in a manner analogous to contemporary reports of some out-of-body experiences. "


www.jamesdekorne.com...#?1#?1#WebrootPlugIn#?1#?1#PhreshPhish#?1#?1#agtpwd

This passage best explains my take on my experience.

"Unquestionably, the most important distinction that Monroe makes about Locale II is the observation that it is a realm where one's thoughts take on a kind of "physical" reality -- "physical," at least, in the terms of the laws of that dimension.


Superseding all appears to be one prime law. Locale II is a state of being where that which we label thought is the wellspring of existence. It is the vital creative force that produces energy, assembles "matter" into form, and provides channels of perception and communication. I suspect that the very self or soul in Locale II is no more than an organized vortex or warp in this fundamental. As you think, so you are. "

originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: Visitor2012

Oh dear...I thought my ears were made up of living cells and were part of me.

I did say I was the whole shebang...

You said your ears hear. I said they don't. To support what I was attempting to communicate to you, I said 'do microphones listen?' Listening is an act. Our senses are passive systems, they don't 'DO' anything. It is you that is doing the listening and the seeing. Like you said, that's obvious. But I'm saying you have to go deeper than that.

For example, If ears aren't doing the hearing and eyes aren't doing the seeing, what is? You say 'I am!' Ok, so can you define the 'I' that is using the ears to hear and the eyes to see ? The answer is probably No. So the 'I' which is the ONLY one doing the seeing and hearing, remains undefined, completely ignored and wholly replaced with the identification with the body it is using. And it is this identification with which you say 'is me!'

Similarly, if someone says 'I am my body' or 'I am the body' be it a statement of unification or whatever you want to call it, although the body may be a relatively known factor in the equation, the 'I' which possesses it and perceives it, remains unknown and is ignored altogether.

originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: BlueMule

It may well be that inner is outer really, I was asking how one can tell if it is not a subjective experience.

The subjective/objective dichotomy is false. Inner and outer are the same, deep down. But on the superficial level of day to day life, they can seem like a duality.

So how to tell? Veridical hallucinations, synchronicity.

a reply to: Aphorism

Or is it that everything we see is presented to the body and I at the same time? They are the same thing and always have been.

if they're the same thing then why did you just separate them?

and when we hear, we are not hearing anything but our nervous system and brain?

What converts vibrations to sound? Not the ears, but the Brain. And if it no longer converted it, would you hear? No. ALL that you hear is what the nervous system and brain generates for you to hear. There are no sounds floating through the air.

What about when we feel? Are we touching our with these organs only?

Touch is only experienced through the nervous system. If your nervous system didn't transmit the sense data, or if your brain didn't process it, then there would be no sense of touch. The sense of touch happens in the brain not in the sense organs.

Brains don't think or see or hear. Only bodies do, and by bodies I mean beings who say "I" when referring to themselves.

So if the brains aren't doing the thinking, who is? The answer is, YOU are. And who/what is that? You have no idea so you revert to identifying with the instrument itself and ignore the undefined and undescovered 'I' which is using that instrument,

Which is why I said I think you should slow down a bit. I'm not trying to be rude. Because you know the ears aren't doing the hearing, the brain which converts the signal to sound ISN'T doing the hearing. Only You are. But when asked the question 'well then who are YOU', you, once again, revert to identifying with the instrument itself, knowing full well, that the body isn't doing any such thing.

This is basic genuine introspection here. Something you should practice before attempting to 'Spiritually reorient' other seekers who may have gone beyond your limited body-mind perception. Even your average OBE'er would know this.

a reply to: Visitor2012

Similarly, if someone says 'I am my body' or 'I am the body' be it a statement of unification or whatever you want to call it, although the body may be a relatively known factor in the equation, the 'I' which possesses it and perceives it, remains unknown and is ignored altogether.

I don't think the 'I' or the 'me' has been ignored my anyone. You have it the wrong way round it's the body that's been ignored by everyone. The only thing that's alive.

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: InTheLight

 

What and who am I when I leave my body on an OBE? I am still me without my corporal body, but I still retain (or choose to retain?) my perceived/believed physical state (as a hologram?) during the OBE. Or do I create my varying physical realities to suit the state I find myself in, or are these varying states my actual physical and energy bodies residing in different dimensions?

Why do you return to the body, or why don't you enter another? Perhaps because you never left in the first place. We can do anything when we dream, and then we wake up.

There you have it, you've never experienced an OBE. As typical with people who have no OBE experience, you have a very wrong idea about what an OBE is., since you seem to think its some kind of dream that you 'wake up' from. When in reality, coming OUT of an OBE and back into normal life is, in a way, going BACK into a dream NOT waking up from one. You must be talking about Lucid Dreaming.

Let me ask you this honestly. Is it such a wise idea to speak on subjects you have no experience with? I ask because, the person you were responding to (IntheLight) has experienced something very FEW people on this planet ever get to experience. And instead of learning from these people, you chose to spew out what you 'think of it' with no personal experience? I have had countless OBE's and I can say, without a doubt, that IntheLight is on to something far bigger than anything you can imagine with your mind.

a reply to: midicon

I don't think the 'I' or the 'me' has been ignored my anyone. You have it the wrong way round it's the body that's been ignored by everyone. The only thing that's alive

Oh, so now the instrument itself is the only thing that's alive. You've just ignored the 'I' right there. Not in your mind of course, because to you, the 'I' IS the body and ONLY the body.

I highly recommend you try triggering an OBE, you truly need to experience one. And it's relatively easy to do. But then, if you did that, you would have to erase everything you've ever written about spirituality, enlightenment and reality, and that's a lot of back peddling. So I'm betting you'll play it safe and stick with your idea of it, and not attempt it yourself.

a reply to: Visitor2012

There you have it, you've never experienced an OBE. As typical with people who have no OBE experience, you have a very wrong idea about what an OBE is., since you seem to think its some kind of dream that you 'wake up' from. When in reality, coming OUT of an OBE and back into normal life is, in a way, going BACK into a dream NOT waking up from one. You must be talking about Lucid Dreaming.

Perhaps dream wasn’t the best word. Maybe hallucination would have worked better.

Let me ask you this honestly. Is it such a wise idea to speak on subjects you have no experience with? I ask because, the person you were responding to (IntheLight) has experienced something very FEW people on this planet ever get to experience. And instead of learning from these people, you chose to spew out what you 'think of it' with no personal experience? I have had countless OBE's and I can say, without a doubt, that IntheLight is on to something far bigger than anything you can imagine with your mind.

I know a man with a brain injury who tells me he lives in the future, and that he’s come back to warn of us of our impending doom. I know someone who has talked to Jesus about the best taco recipe, after consuming narcotics. I know a man who suffered from bad dehydration, who swore he saw heaven. I don’t doubt their experiences. Who would lie about such things?

Perhaps they are on to something far bigger than anything I can imagine, or they have simply modified the body in such a way so that they can have these “mystical” experiences. Because one has to meditate or otherwise deprive the body of certain functions or be half asleep to have these experiences is enough for me to see the hallucinogenic nature of them. I prefer the less romantic and fantastical view of things for the sake of clarity, and don’t think any of these sorts of experiences have any positive bearing on spirituality and how we live our lives.

Yes go play in the mind as a ghost; that's what it's there for—escape.

originally posted by: Visitor2012

if they're the same thing then why did you just separate them?

I'm speaking in a language you understand.

What converts vibrations to sound? Not the ears, but the Brain. And if it no longer converted it, would you hear? No. ALL that you hear is what the nervous system and brain generates for you to hear. There are no sounds floating through the air.

Sound is also the vibrations travelling through a medium picked up by the ear.

sound 1 |sound|
noun
1 vibrations that travel through the air or another medium and can be heard when they reach a person's or animal's ear: light travels faster than sound.
• a thing that can be heard: she heard the sound of voices in the hall | don't make a sound.
• the area or distance within which something can be heard: we were always within sound of the train whistles.
2 (also musical sound)sound produced by continuous and regular vibrations, as opposed to noise.
• short for speech sound.

Touch is only experienced through the nervous system. If your nervous system didn't transmit the sense data, or if your brain didn't process it, then there would be no sense of touch. The sense of touch happens in the brain not in the sense organs.

I'm sorry but the sense organ must come into contact with something before any sense of touch occurs. The sense data idea is a little solipsistic for my liking.

So if the brains aren't doing the thinking, who is? The answer is, YOU are. And who/what is that? You have no idea so you revert to identifying with the instrument itself and ignore the undefined and undescovered 'I' which is using that instrument,

Yes I the body am thinking. I don't see any contradiction in that.

Which is why I said I think you should slow down a bit. I'm not trying to be rude. Because you know the ears aren't doing the hearing, the brain which converts the signal to sound ISN'T doing the hearing. Only You are. But when asked the question 'well then who are YOU', you, once again, revert to identifying with the instrument itself, knowing full well, that the body isn't doing any such thing.

What do I have to slow down for? I am not trying to make one into two.

This is basic genuine introspection here. Something you should practice before attempting to 'Spiritually reorient' other seekers who may have gone beyond your limited body-mind perception. Even your average OBE'er would know this.

It doesn't really make any sense this "genuine introspection" you speak of. But sure, I can tell you enjoy your mystical perception. You enjoy it, while we get some actual work done.

originally posted by: Visitor2012
a reply to: midicon

I don't think the 'I' or the 'me' has been ignored my anyone. You have it the wrong way round it's the body that's been ignored by everyone. The only thing that's alive

Oh, so now the instrument itself is the only thing that's alive. You've just ignored the 'I' right there. Not in your mind of course, because to you, the 'I' IS the body and ONLY the body.



I highly recommend you try triggering an OBE, you truly need to experience one. And it's relatively easy to do. But then, if you did that, you would have to erase everything you've ever written about spirituality, enlightenment and reality, and that's a lot of back peddling. So I'm betting you'll play it safe and stick with your idea of it, and not attempt it yourself.

Is the body not alive? I will not deny what I am.

I do not ignore the 'I' but many spiritual teachers will say that the 'I' does not exist.

I can see from what you have said that you have no real insight into anything.

You have to learn some honesty and how to be true to yourself ...

And somehow accomplish that without being annoyed at me.

If I wanted to play it safe I would not be here.

Why would I erase averything I have ever written about spirituality?

Do you find the question I asked about subjectivity somehow offensive?

Isn't it strange that in reality those that declare themseves the most spiritual...

Are in fact the least.