Originally posted by astrocreep
Okay, here we go with the twisting of facts.
Escuse me, but I have not twisted any facts.
Gay students were not being prevented from attending school.
Yes, I am aware of this and its not what a said. I specifically noted that it was a gay student group
The school originally did not want to allow an extra-curricular organization, which for some reason had sexual orientation as its binding
Its a group for gay students, its not exactly mystifying as to why it would exist. A abstinent student group would have 'sex' as its binding factor
and probably would be allowed in.
They were sued and lost.
Rightly so, however I, and perhaps this was my misuderstanding, had thought that it was settled in arbitration/mediation.
but you cannot, by law suit settlement or any other means, force students to sit through it.
Since when? Students can be required to take courses.
You can not force students to sit through math class.
Perhaps the school infact does not have the authority to force students to attend any class, thats entirely possible. I am inclined to think that
they do, especially since they have stated that they have that power (in agreeing to do so).
no way in hell will this state add sexual orientation tolerance training to that requirement..nor should it.
Why the heck shouldn't the students be given some tolerance training? I agree that 'tolerance' might not be something guaranteed by law, but why
are you making it out to be some horrible thing? These students shouldn't be doing any kind of harm to another student, merely because they are gay,
any more than gay students should be allowed to belittle straight students anyway.
Look, no one said these students could not congregate but what the hell does the school have to do with anal sex?
Who the heck said anything about anal sex? The school wasn't discriminating against students engaging in anal sex, it was discriminating against gay
and lesbian students. Heck, unless these lesbians were walking around with strap-ons they
at the very least aren't engaging in anal sex, and
I'd be willing to be that there are more straight female students engaged in all sorts of sodomy at that school than lesbians engaged in it. Heck
there's probably more straight students engaged in sodomy 'gomory' and all sorts of 'sexual perversions' than there are gay students in total at
Why should we and should we be encouraging highschool age kids to experiment with sex?
How is expecting students to be tolerant of one another irregardless of sexual orientation the same thing as encouraging sexual experimentation?
What the hell happened to desease prevention and the threat of aids.
What does that have to do with this? No one is talking about revoking sex ed classes. This is a human dignity and tolerance issue.
meet and have a support group for discussing sexual techniques they use?
Perhaps I have misunderstood something here. This class is not about tolerance of other people in relation to their sexuality, but instead about how
to give a proper reach around and whether or not you're a catcher or a pitcher?
I don't think that they are teaching students how to be gay, they're teaching students that just because someone is gay doesn't mean that you can
Oh, the government funded schools are now allowed to make judgements in lieu of the parents?
This is not new. 'In loco parentis' is not new.
And they have no say?
Apparently your problem is with a school that is overriding parents rights, not the ACLU which was defending the rights of some students. The
is the one saying that it can force students to attend any classes, not the ACLU. The school and the students being discriminated
against agreed that if the school made a mandatory tolerance and diversity class (and I think that this is a one or two session class no, not an
entire year or semester?) then the lawsuit would be dropped.
If the school overstepped its bounds, then you should be complain about and to the school.
"It sounds like the training can't possibly be done," James Esseks, litigation director for the ACLU's Lesbian and Gay Rights Project
Looks like the ACLU was lead to beleive that the school could, one way or another, get all their students to take this training. Apparently they were
Look, if you want the vast majority of the country to be completely uneducated, illiterate and entirely ignorant, then eliminating public schools is a
good way to go. As it is, anyone who disagrees with the public school system in general can take their kids out of school and do just that. Private
and Home schooling is not a solution to any sort of educational problems for the entire country.
This would solve more problems than it would raise.
Thats a terribly horrible idea. If you eliminate public schools, you will eliminate education for entire swaths of the population. It'd put this
country back well over a hundred years.
Since kids are required to go to school, and it is provided by the government (~shutters~), then they have no right to mandate social training
in lieu of the parents.
If they can require sex ed, then they can require this course.
but I have the right to censure anything I deem inappropriate for my kids.
No you don't. Its been pointed out that the school system can have standards for graduation. You don't have the right to control the public
schooling agenda. YOu do
have the right to opt out of the public school system.
Parents, the two of OPPOSITE sex that hopefully enjoyed a union at some time in the past, should be the ones that teach morality.
Why? THey are not more moral than others.
Oh God doesn't hate them, he hates the sin in which there really is no debate.
Right, and gayness is a sin that ranks just as bad as eating shellfish, which the bible also says is an abomination. Are students going to be
required to keep kosher? If students that keep kosher are discriminated against by the faculty, administration, pta, and students, is the ACLU
horrible and evil for advocating on behalf of kosher students? And they must be nazis or something if they agree that if the school can get all its
students to watch at 'What is Kosher Anyway" video or if they learn why they shouldn't discriminate against people who keep kosher then there
isn't a problem, even tho
this won't necessarily stop the discrimination?
A Bisexual only has half the gay gene?
The genetics of human sexuality are not dictated by a single gene or anything like that. The studies that I have seen indicate that gay men have
brain structures/patters that correlate (in the areas associated with sex) that are very similiar to that of a straight woman's. That means that
whatever makes them gay is whatever makes women straight. Also, its been noted in other studies that the men who are most homophobic have the
'largest' arousal response to gay pornography, whereas those with little homophobia have less or no response. So gayness can't merely be dictated
by a single gene or a simple genetic system, again, at least no more than straightness or anything else in humanity is.
Who has condemned anyone here?
jesus told everyone to love each other, forgive each other, and not even struggle aginst evil, to literally offer the other cheek to an abuser. Not
to force gays out of school and fight aginst the ACLU like it was some sort of invasion.
I agree and pay dearly for it
You agree that homeschooling/private schooling can be efffective for individual students, or agree that the public school system should be eradicated
and all students have to fend for themselves?
is that is exactly what it is, propaganda.
Since when is propaganda inherently bad? Everyone uses propaganda, its merely a tool.
Schools take student safety seriously.
Hence them want to prevent anti-gay sentiment from turning into anti-gay violence
In this instance a group (happens to be gay) wants to form a club promoting a form of sexism and the school said no
No, an already formed national group wanted to be at the school. These gay-lesbian alliance groups are not sexist, they don't discriminate against
sexual orientation, all students are allowed to join. And they don't promote gayness or recruit straights into being gay, they simple try to
explain to students that ridicule, exlusion, violence and discrimination are not acceptable.
were you taught to be a bigot?
No one claims that the BSA teaches bigotry, but it is a bigoted organization.
to force a special interest minority group agenda.
And that agenda is 'stop beating gays in the streets, stop discriminating because of sexual orientation and show humans humanity'.
until the gay community finds a way to "forgive" or somehow extend a branch of peace to the Scouts
Why in the world should gays forgive the national BSA for being bigoted and exlusionary? Should blacks forgive the KKK, merely because they have a
riot to be bigots?
The Scouts have a long history of volunteerism, community service to ALL, and of helping young men grow into more responsible
Yes, the BSA is generally a good group that is helpful to society in general. Why they insist on exluding gays is beyond me but I guess its just
because they're a bunch of useful and helpful bigots.
Yet now soo many are being turned away from supporting them because they exercised their PROTECTED 1rst amendment RIGHTS to not be inflicted
with members that do not expouse their core values.
So? The scouts don't deserve membership, they don't have a right to being promoted by everyone. Gays have a problem with being excluded from
scouts, no one claims that in itself is illegal. The scouts, as a private group, not a public one, can do whatever they want. And what they want
apparently is to exclude members based on sexual orientation.
Do you support persecuting someone for using their 1rst amendment rights of association?
I support persecuting people who have digusting and morally repugnant views, even tho I support their right to be disgusting and immoral.
Are you for removal of this right in order to support a special interest minority group agenda?
No, and no one is calling for this, least of all the ACLU.
Which other Special interest minority group agendas should adopt these same devious tactics?
There was nothing devious about requesting that the scouts be required to not discriminate or not be a publically funded group.
i want to sue a gay rights organization because they wont let edsinger become the head of their local organization, citing discrimination
against him for being a str8 christian.
NO court in the land would support this because he does NOT expouse the gay groups values
Agreed, no court would expect a gay rights group to even be forced to accept non gay members, just like the boy scouts are not required to accept gay
members. If, however, it was some sort of national organization that received public funding, then they couldn't discriminate against edsinger
merely because he is a non-gay christian. They could discriminate against him because he is not in favour of constitutionally guarenteed gay rights
or any other number of legitimate issues. If the KKK wanted to receive public funding, it could not be a racist organization. Similarly, if the
Black Panthers wanted to receive federal funding, they could not be racist either. Obviously this means the KKK can't reject a member as president
of the org merely because he is black, but they could reject a member as president if that member was overall opposed to the other legal aspects of
the KKK (whatever those might be).
but damn man, how can you look from both experiance and objectivity and say the Scouts are bad and deserve to be DISCRIMINATED against for
being who they are.
Uhm, no one is discriminating against the scouts. And yet, the scouts insist on being allowed to discriminate.
I hope the United Way dries up and wastes away, they will never get ANY money from me
Do you or do you not pay taxes? Are you saying that you have been illegally refusing to file your income tax returns and are also making your
children/heirs and family do the same?
Hypocrits to the MAX.
its the 'anti-gay' groups that are the hypocrits. They batch and whine about 'reverse discrimination' and how they shouldn't be looked down on
merely because they are bigoted hypocrits, but then are, literally, demanding the right to be intolerant of other people and even demanding that their
kids not be forced to take a course on being sensitive and humane. They hid behind false views on constitutional protections and simulataneously seek
to remove those protections for others. If the whole world was gay, then they'd run to the ACLU practically everytime they went out on the street.
Just look at the nazis, they sought protection from the ACLU. Infact, since a few generations ago the sex acts that are seen as 'normal' today were
considered perversions and psychological sicknesses, manias, and hysterias that needed to be cured. Think about what its going to be like a few
generations from now eh? Stuff thats considered perverted by most people today will be common, then who are the 'morals and sexual purity people'
going to turn to? They'll be the ones demanding that they be allowed into succesful 'tolerant' organizations, and they'll be the ones asking for
protections. When their kids are the ones made fun of by other students, beaten by other people, had peer pressure put on them to do those perverted
acts, and even been denied the right of assembly in public places like schools for their 'narrow minded sexual orientated groups' , they're the
ones who will be using these so called 'devious' tactics of demanding to be treated with respect and human dignity.
Sorry to rant, but i had to clear my chest of the SLANDEROUS, and vicious attack against the Scouts
There is no libel or slander in saying that the boy scouts are bigoted and discrimintory, hell, they're insisting that they have a right to be so.
And they do. Pointing that out isn't slander. If anyone is being a slanderer or libeler its you
for calling these tactics devious and
subversive or seeking to promote some conspiratorial agenda. And you're calling them
Yet they are the bad guys?
Ultimately yes. They're discriminatory intolerant bigots. If thats not being a bad guy then not too much else is. It doesn't matter that the
national org of scouting does other good stuff. Any group can do good and bad stuff.
What about the harassment to those who are forced to watch this?
it is not harrasment in any sense of the word.
After having supported a neo-nazi group what more can we expect from such a group?
You are saying nazis don't have a right to be nazis? 1st ammendment guarentees a right to freedom of speech. doesn't matter if its liberal or
Next they will say "Tolerance training" on cannibals !
Ok, what exactly is so wrong with cannibals? Murdering people and eating them sure, but many religions feast on the corpses of the deceased. I think
its gross, but that doesn't mean that they should be prevented from doing it, and that doesn't mean that people should be allowed to discriminate
Such decisions should be put to vote in the local PTA meetings instead of dragging the school to court
Obviously the school in question didn't feel that the parents had any right to reject their demands.
I do, however , think this course should be expanded to train teachers to control violence coming from not only anti-gay sentiment but also
racial,gender related and social class sentiments as well
So before everyone was arguing that they can't force people to be tolerant, and now its argued that they should force everyone to be tolerant on
everything? Before it was a problem with having a gay tolerance class or session, now you want every teacher to allways teach and enforce tolerance
So long as this doesn't force socialization and merely trains staff to control violence, I think its beneficial
Its not staff only. The school, according to world nut daily, is requiring all students to attend.
That kind of Cro-Magnon behavior is unacceptable as far as I am concerned, while I do think homosexuality is wrong.
And you don't think that it would make sense for those 'cro-mags' to have to take a lesson in why its wrong to be intolerant? Where do you get off
being so sensationalistic by defending a person against all thats good and holy, football? Just trying to draw attention to yourself? And since when
can you force someone to be tolerant of someone else?What are you somking of Atheist and Communist Liberal Unioner or something?
In defending this gay kid and his date against the football team you were doing exactly what the ACLU did, and with the threat of violence presumably,
which the ACLU did not