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View homosexually tolerant film, or school faces lawsuit

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posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by mwm1331
I may not agree with what you say but I will fight for your right to say it. I may not agree with what you teach your kids but I will fight for your right to teach it.

Just as public schools have a duty to provide all students with a safe enviroment.
There are laws against hate crimes in society because of the diversity.. government schools should be allowed to carry that over so they can educate kids so they don't commit hate crimes later in life.. as public schools are a services of the government.. it is their responsibilty.
If someone is homophobic.. parents can always send them to a homophobic schools to ensure that they are too bloody terrified to come out of the closet.

What I am having alot of trouble with [and it may've already been mentioned] is that the main thing Jesus preached was tolerence.. how can a christian call him/herself and christian if they are dismissing the teachings of christ? There aren't any exceptions to the 'love thy neighbour' rule.




posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 10:35 AM
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I stayed away from this thread at first because it seemed to be long enough as is, and many of you voiced much of what I would have said less eloquently before I saw it anyhow. That said, here's my piece, and I will open up a little here because I think its important.

My elementary school years (kg-6th) were at a private school, where tolerance/diversity were a constant theme throughout my time there. We had assembalies for Martin Luther King Day (singing songs like "we shall overcome," and giving presentations about how far we came and why it was good etc), Passover, Christmas, Thanksgiving (where we would perform skits about the Indians and do little projects to show the first Thanksgiving)....

It was a great place to go during the formative years, religious, racial, all tolerance taught. We even had a brief Japanese class (more culture than language) and would have International Day etc etc to promote the "celebrate differences" theme.

My parents had a lot of problems when I was hitting adolescence, lost their money and we moved. I started attending a new (public) school. There were only a handful of black kids at the entire school (most of my best friends in elementary school were not white). I was shocked when I saw how the majority of wealthy, white kids made fun of them.... They were vicious. Diversity was not hip there.

I had a lot of problems at home (messed up folks, abusive brother, financial and substance abuse issues amongst them) and it was very tough on me. I had no idea I didn't deserve to be mistreated at school as well. Afterall, I wasn't like the other kids, and they knew it even better than I. No one taught them it wasn't okay to pick on someone for being different.

One day, someone came in for an assembly about tolerance. It was good, and explained in many examples that bullying others was WRONG. Basically just showing kids how cruel they appear. The message sunk in. For the next 2 or so days, no one publicly humiliated or ridiculed me. I was so happy, I still remember the elation I felt- I felt safe for the first time in many months.

Of course the snotty kids eventually went back to their old ways after that one afternoon, and sadly I learned to conform to feel at least accepted at school if I was only hurt at home. I wonder what it would have been like if the school made more continuing efforts to bring up topics of tolerance and diversity.

Many years later, looking back, all I can say is PARENTS AREN"T CUTTING IT! Not all homes teach tolerance, and it needs to be taught somewhere. It is not okay to mistreat people because they are different.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by mwm1331
Well I guess if you are teaching something anathema to a parents religous/social beliefs, Then it could be argued that you are infringng upon thier rights. Its a loose interpertation but I think a smart lawyer could make it stick.
I am actaully kinda surprised that neither the Neo-Naz's or KKK has tried this tack.

I mean if I have the right to teach my children to wrship jesus. why don't you have the right to teach your children that (nsert minority, religon etc here) are abominations, inferior etc.?



OK here's an extreme example but it makes the point. If Daddy teaches little Jimmy that all women are bitches, begging to be had then dumped and Jimmy then goes into school and starts sexually abusing female pupils and refusing to take lessons from women teachers 'cos wimmin don 'no nuffing' how far should the school go in protecting the rights of that parent to teach his son the moral/social values that he holds dear. When is that right superceeded by the rest of the students/faculties rights, or should it ever.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by Kano
There is enough strife caused in the world today by ignorance and intolerance that to try and stop children from learning tolerance yet still claim the high moral ground is ridiculous.


No one said anything about preventing children from learning tolerance only that it isn't the place of public schools to do so and there is a big difference between preventing if desired and forcing when refused...and doing so on the dole of the tax payers. Homosexuals have every right to promote tolerance for their beliefs however, what they do have is the right to force it upon those unwilling. Like I said to begin with, assault is already illeagl no matter what the reasoning. To teach kids they cannot morally, naturally or medically disagree with these practices is forced socialization. A pupil has every right to disagree and disassociate socially with those they do not agree with such as gays or the KKK. What they do not have the right to do is physically attack them. There needs to be no special course to enforce this law.

Nor does the school need give a meeting place for any group it feels isn't warranted. Look at Boy Scouts. The school my son's pack is chartered through no longer allows them to hold meetings there. I dare say most of you would not be so quick to defend their right to meet afterschool as you would the homosexual group now would you?

You can not force anyone to accept any ideology they do not wish to. If this course is not part of the state cirricumlum, then I suggest the gays reserve their local community center and give ot free to the public at large. I've attended mandatory sensitivity trainings for work. What these people don't seem to realize is that unless you work at a bordelo, sex has no business in the workplace so its mute point...for me anyway. I'd be just as pissed to see two heteros going at it in the break room as I would two homos. Its does not belong at work (in most cases) and it does not belong in schools in any case.

You all will argue all day long for muslim's rights to preach intolerance and say because its their religion, they can be intolerant of others..even when they preach breaking the law with assault and murder. If a person chooses not to socialize with someone, they have that right..and as bad as I hate to say it, its wrong to attempt to legislate that.

We all have to obey the laws but no one ever said we all had to get along...well...one guy did..and look what happened to him. We all have the right to be intolerant of anyone we wish as long as thats defined as joining in or socializing. What we do not have the right to do is retaliate with violence and that should be covered already in the schools orientation.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 10:40 AM
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Originally posted by mwm1331
True but my point is isn't it your right to raise #ed up kids?

I'm sure it is. But again though, I fail to see how teaching kids tolerance in schools takes away that right. And to completely isolate kids from a society they're a part of just doesn't make any sense.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 10:47 AM
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Originally posted by ubermunche

OK here's an extreme example but it makes the point. If Daddy teaches little Jimmy that all women are bitches, begging to be had then dumped and Jimmy then goes into school and starts sexually abusing female pupils and refusing to take lessons from women teachers 'cos wimmin don 'no nuffing' how far should the school go in protecting the rights of that parent to teach his son the moral/social values that he holds dear. When is that right superceeded by the rest of the students/faculties rights, or should it ever.


Well, all I can say is that little Jimmy's dad is likely the prodcut of the same educational system which refuses to do its job and educate. However, he has every right to teach this dogma (although I have never heard of anyone who would do so).

Like I have stated before, this is no special case. Laws already in place would cover the sexual abuse and likely school rules would cover the insubordination to the teacher. Now little Jimmy knows he cannot legally harrass females no matter what his dad told him and he also knows he'll never graduate and likely stay in detention or in the worse case juvenile hall until he understands the law.

No law says Jimmy has to respect women..it just says he cannot violate their rights.

No law says I have think homosexuality is natural but it does say I cannot beat them up over it.

We are all entitled to an opinion be it an intolerant one or not. Its called free thinking. PC restrains it and I for one am tired of apologizing for my opinion for fear someone's feelings will get hurt.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 10:48 AM
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Originally posted by edsinger
This makes me sick! I hate the ACLU and the bull# they try to pass onto the public for their political correctness campaign.

ACLU tells district: Force students to watch 'tolerance training' video

LAW OF THE LAND View homosexual film, or school faces lawsuit
ACLU tells district: Force students to watch 'tolerance training' video
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Posted: November 28, 2004 1:00 a.m. Eastern

If administrators of Kentucky's Boyd County school district can't find a way to force all students to attend sexual orientation and gender identity "tolerance training," the American Civil Liberties Union is threatening to take them to court again.

Ten months ago, the district settled a lawsuit with the ACLU over the right of a student group, the Gay-Straight Alliance, to meet on campus. The year-long litigation strained relations in the conservative northeast portion of the state. In addition to allowing the group to meet on campus after school, district officials agreed that all students, staff and teachers would be required to receive "tolerance training."

The agreement stipulated all would attend "mandatory anti-harassment workshops," including the viewing of an hour-long "training" video covering sexual orientation and gender identity issues for middle and high school students.


NO Homosexual Agenda?ACLU tells district: Force students to watch 'tolerance training' video


So lets do something about it


Petition: Get ACLU off taxpayer dole




whats wrong with homosexuals ?
is your problem with the ACLU or gays ?
if they lobbied to have them show, "Romeo & Juliet", would you have a problem with that ?
what are your views on prayer in school ?-j; )



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 10:53 AM
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Originally posted by Durden
And to completely isolate kids from a society they're a part of just doesn't make any sense.


Again, no one is attempting to do that. Just because public schools aren't the place for it doesn't mean its forbidden to them. For the same reason we cannot have baptist preachers standing in classrooms giving hellfire and brimstone sermons is the same reason we cannot have this. School is a place for academics. Religion and sexual preference may have their place in society but once we open the flood gates to them in school, when are we going to have time teach kids how to read?



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by astrocreep

Originally posted by Durden
And to completely isolate kids from a society they're a part of just doesn't make any sense.


Again, no one is attempting to do that.
...

This was a response mwm1331's post of a situation where parents were to teach children to be racists.


[edit on 30-11-2004 by Durden]



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 10:59 AM
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Listen people, the freedom of thought both protects the GOOD and BAD opinions (relative to whom is speaking).

We protect our religious, political, and social thought. Our school system is not the place to be teaching people how to think.

This is a prime motivator for me to push for privatization of public schooling. We are dragging in the world because of such stupid ideas that social education is somehow vital, yet math, science, English, physical and health education, music, arts, etc are not.

But it's all about the money right? More federal money means better schools? No.

Parents might or might not be cutting it, as far as you are concerned, but they might just think you are a twit to teach kids some of the ideas you've got.

So here we are again. WE CAN'T TRUST PEOPLE TO DO THINGS THEMSELVES...

So we must take their rights.

We need the Libertarians, or we will have some serious heartache when we fall.

Funny that the Civil Liberties Union is pushing, what?, a removal of rights?

Yes, and that's all it is. For a "good reason" is no good reason to remove people's rights.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 11:04 AM
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Originally posted by Verdis Quo
As a christian, I cannot tolerate hatred and deception, much like you cannot tolerate gays. I still can't seem to grasp why God would hate people that he created.


Thank you.
If it weren't for people like you... and if I didn't know better (even if I don't practice it, I was baptized a Catholic, and my gf is a practising Catholic) I'd think, seeing the posts by some Christians in this thread, that Christianity is a religion where the key words are disapproval and condemnation.

People seem to forget that Christ's God is a God of love, not a God of anger and punishment.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 11:12 AM
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Well, all I can say is that little Jimmy's dad is likely the prodcut of the same educational system which refuses to do its job and educate. However, he has every right to teach this dogma (although I have never heard of anyone who would do so).



So you would agree then that part of the educational systems responsibility is to re-educate people to learn acceptance and tolerance of others regardless of personal feelings or previous social conditioning. Isn't that what this film does.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 11:17 AM
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Originally posted by astrocreep
Again, no one is attempting to do that. Just because public schools aren't the place for it doesn't mean its forbidden to them. For the same reason we cannot have baptist preachers standing in classrooms giving hellfire and brimstone sermons is the same reason we cannot have this. School is a place for academics. Religion and sexual preference may have their place in society but once we open the flood gates to them in school, when are we going to have time teach kids how to read?


well done.-j; )



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 11:18 AM
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Originally posted by Otts

Originally posted by Verdis Quo
As a christian, I cannot tolerate hatred and deception, much like you cannot tolerate gays. I still can't seem to grasp why God would hate people that he created.


Thank you.
If it weren't for people like you... and if I didn't know better (even if I don't practice it, I was baptized a Catholic, and my gf is a practising Catholic) I'd think, seeing the posts by some Christians in this thread, that Christianity is a religion where the key words are disapproval and condemnation.

People seem to forget that Christ's God is a God of love, not a God of anger and punishment.


I don't think God hates or loves. That seems a silly notion to apply human emotion to something outside of time and space. Perhaps it's true, but this might be another topic altogether.

I do agree that Christianity has gotten 1/2 a bad reputation, and 1/2 a bad representation.

The key is to INCLUDE, not exclude. People's actions be damned. The point of Christianity, is to be "Christ-like", which last time I checked, he hung out with the dregs of society (like the tax collector
)

We can say people's actions are wrong, or perhaps even evil, but an equal measure needs be applied to Christians as well.

We are imperfect by far, and I know sometimes they come across as sinless, but I don't think this is always the intent of their rhetoric.

Again, the debate on homosexuality is a separate issue here. The issue is whether or not parent's rights should be subverted by a private organization.

Personally, I don't think so.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by KrazyJethro
Listen people, the freedom of thought both protects the GOOD and BAD opinions (relative to whom is speaking).

We protect our religious, political, and social thought. Our school system is not the place to be teaching people how to think.

This is a prime motivator for me to push for privatization of public schooling. We are dragging in the world because of such stupid ideas that social education is somehow vital, yet math, science, English, physical and health education, music, arts, etc are not.

But it's all about the money right? More federal money means better schools? No.

Parents might or might not be cutting it, as far as you are concerned, but they might just think you are a twit to teach kids some of the ideas you've got.

So here we are again. WE CAN'T TRUST PEOPLE TO DO THINGS THEMSELVES...

So we must take their rights.

We need the Libertarians, or we will have some serious heartache when we fall.

Funny that the Civil Liberties Union is pushing, what?, a removal of rights?

Yes, and that's all it is. For a "good reason" is no good reason to remove people's rights.


OK then so we take this to it's logical conclusion and allow private schools funded by the KKK, communists, Islamic extremists, liberals, conservatives, Xtian fundies then we let the products of all these differing educational ideaologies loose on the streets and stand back and watch the fire works. Whatever the rights of the individual to have an opinion or to express it we still need some kind of consensus agreement on what is acceptable expression of this in a democratic, civilised society. If I have to work alomgside of others and generally co-exist then I can live with 'I don't approve of homosexuality, by the way where are you going on holiday?' But I have far more of a problem with 'burn in hell fag and don't ever talk to me.'



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 11:25 AM
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Jethro - I think we agree on this. At the very least, Christians (and non-Christians too) should practice what Christ instructed us to do: "love one another".

I just deplore that some use their religion to claim the moral high ground, accuse and condemn others while conveniently drawing attention away from their own shortcomings.

And yes, homosexuality set aside, this is about TOLERANCE. And I agree with what some posters said - parents aren't doing such a good job at it.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 11:28 AM
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KrazyJethro we agree on something....my big gripe here though, contrary to what some think here.....is not against Christians, it's against hypocrites. I can't stand it! I'm a very fair is fair person. I can't stand someone to hate, condemn, belittle, someone for "sinning" while they sin themselves. I mean who they think they are to hate others and look down on another human being for sinning when they sin too. I will never understand it, never! One should clean up their own home before trying to clean others! Otherwise they make themselves look unintelligent, petty and backsliding on their own religion....it also chases others away from the faith! I could never sit in a church full of sinners....while they are preaching against a group of others for sinning. How ridiculously hypocritical is that!?



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by ubermunche
OK then so we take this to it's logical conclusion and allow private schools funded by the KKK, communists, Islamic extremists, liberals, conservatives, Xtian fundies then we let the products of all these differing educational ideaologies loose on the streets and stand back and watch the fire works.


We can make as extreme an example out of this as you like, but nowhere does it say that we should disallow thought or private schools to teach what they want.

Are you against freedom of religion and thought, even when it opposes you?


Whatever the rights of the individual to have an opinion or to express it we still need some kind of consensus agreement on what is acceptable expression of this in a democratic, civilised society.


We do, the criminal code. Should anyone violate the law, they are subject to the law. This system has worked pretty well for a while now. Think we need to rehash it?


If I have to work alomgside of others and generally co-exist then I can live with 'I don't approve of homosexuality, by the way where are you going on holiday?' But I have far more of a problem with 'burn in hell fag and don't ever talk to me.'


Well, we'd all love to endulge your comfort, but I understand what you are saying. It WOULD be nice if the world was a better place, but it's not.

No reason to punish those who do not cause problems or violate the law. Legislating love OR hate is nasty business (as we see with the gay marriage situation), so let's try to leave that out of the government.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 11:43 AM
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Krazy Jethro
And nowhere did I say we should disallow it, we should just be very careful how far it's allowed to go and in the same vein I'm not against ideas/ideologies that directly oppose me depending on the extent of the opposing.

Judging by the amount of abuse/discrimination and general bad behaviour perhaps the law is in need of a good rehash and by the way it's not indulging my comfort (as much as I'm sure you'd love too) it's about treating me with the same respect I manage to treat those around me with, I don't find it that difficult why should others.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 12:36 PM
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Originally posted by ubermunche


So you would agree then that part of the educational systems responsibility is to re-educate people to learn acceptance and tolerance of others regardless of personal feelings or previous social conditioning. Isn't that what this film does.


No, I do not agree that the educational system has a responsibility to teach acceptance and tolerance. The educational system's repsonsibility is to teach reading, writing, math and science. That doesn't mean that this should not be available elsewhere..and in fact, I support it to be offered freely. A child goes to school to be educated and thats all. Once we allow sexual, social, and religious dogma into this, whats to stop politics, advertising, and door to door sales? This group is trying to hijack an institution who has NOT A DAMN THING to do with sodomy and demanding to use it to promote understanding of it.

First off, if you don't want sodomized, you don't have to be sodomized. If you don't want to go to lunch with someone because you suspect all they will talk about is sodomy, you don't have to. Who the hell ever said we have to be tolerant of every damn thing that comes down the pike is way off the mark. Now, homosexuals can do whatever for all I care but you can bet, I'm not going to be forced to support an agenda I don't morally agree with and thats what this is all about.

Our laws do not require us to accept or be tolerant of anybody or anything merely to not violate their rights. It is not their right to show an activist piece of propaganda at an institution for primary learning paid for by our taxes. They have every right to publish it, hand out copies, or arrange a course at their local community center but to tell me my child is going to be forced to watch this and then expected to accept something we well know is a level of deviation is FRANKLY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.



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