The bible is the bait and hook the "devil" uses to get you.

a reply to: Logarock

If non-belief means someone doesn't understand then I guess Christians don't understand the thousands of religions that came before and after Christianity. They don't understand the thousands upon thousands of other gods other than the Christian one.

Saying someone doesn't understand based on non-belief is the real cop out here.

a reply to: lupodigubbio

So what is the narrow gate you want to enter into, and buy using the term "narrow Gate" you used the Bible.

Which you said is the work of the devil,

CAN SATAN CAST OUT SATAN?

Matthew
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Gird thyself with the weapons of our warfare!

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: DarknStormy

I love the double standard here, Islam could have been a construct of Rome 200 years after Rome fell but Christianity isn't even though Rome is the one who killed Jesus and persecuted his earliest followers.

Christianity was created in the heart of the Roman Empire when it was at its strongest, Islam was created 200 years after Rome dissolved in the 5th century.

That's the point, The Romans persecuted Christians and then decided to embrace the teaching. Don't you find that a bit suss? remember the following.

For such are false Apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light, therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, who end will be according to their works. 2 Cor 11:13-15

They helped in killing Christ and then had a turn of heart some centuries later. But with that they became the centre of religion also. These people have contributed to the murders on millions of people throughout history and if Islam was a way of countering this putrid group of people, then good on them.

a reply to: DarknStormy

They claim to have had a change of heart but it's easy to say things and not actually practice them. Funny that they waited until after they killed the majority of believers before "converting".

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Logarock

If non-belief means someone doesn't understand then I guess Christians don't understand the thousands of religions that came before and after Christianity. They don't understand the thousands upon thousands of other gods other than the Christian one.

Saying someone doesn't understand based on non-belief is the real cop out here.

You will find that many christian study other religions. Its a must.

And I didn't say what the posters reasons are.

Its amazing the strong preconceived notions many have about Christians. Even when confronted with the contrary.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: DarknStormy

They claim to have had a change of heart but it's easy to say things and not actually practice them. Funny that they waited until after they killed the majority of believers before "converting".

I think the objective wasn't so much about Christian beliefs but to control not only the political scene but the spiritual scene also. The Roman Empire never really left, they just became what the are today. They are still the most influential institution in the world and their riches proves it.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
I've pointed this out to Christians before and they tend to not like to hear this line of reasoning. In their defense, it is hard to get an unbiased view of things you are invested in. Though one should recognize that this is the case and try to seek out opinions from outside your bubble to get an idea of what you may be missing, this is where Christians tend to fail.

This is a bunch of BS and sounds real good to folks with zero investment if you get the drift. At any estimation this is not an unbiased view. That's really all I am saying. This is where invested bible debunkers tend to fail. They sop up anything that even looks like a contrary view and call it unbiased. If fact I shouldn't even call them unbelievers but ax grinding mish mashers, hacks, cognitive dissidents and pissers.

Whoa there buddy, I never said that it was true. Personally, I don't think any of the Bible is true as written, regardless of who is the adversary and who is god. I'm just trying to say that it is an alternate perspective to the view that is proclaimed by Christians and is worth considering. It makes some valid points based on actions that GOD himself did in the bible. That's all. You sound like one of the Christians that I was talking about who cannot seek outside opinions from your bubble.

Well yea I expected you to say that.

The bubble here you speak of is one that simply occurs by isolation of certain areas of the bible. The points or some of them at issue are derived from that. It doesn't blow my mind that some folks would extrapolate that God would, can and does operate in a fashion that doesn't mesh with traditional views held by many Christians. I mean take your pick. God showing up to Job at the end of his testing's in the form of a whirlwind...when one just destroyed his home and children. The untrained and quick to pounce mind will conclude that God must be satan or as many christians do don't pay any attention to the glaring problem here. I suffer from neither conundrum.

Are you sure that your opinion isn't formed through preconceived notions from what other people have been telling you? Which came first, a pastor or parents telling you what to believe or you read the bible? If for instance, you were unexposed to Christianity, picked up the bible and formed these opinions based on the text without ANY outside influence guiding your decision making process, then maybe I can agree with you. But I'm willing to bet you were introduced to Christianity and its beliefs first THEN read the bible and interpreted accordingly.

You say that an untrained person would be quick to pounce and make these conclusions, but how about explaining why someone needs to be "trained" to read the bible to begin with. If the bible is truly the inspired word of god, it should be accessible to all levels of intellect, not just the intelligent or studied. I should be able to glance through the text and receive the same message as someone who has studied it for years.

Your are going to preach about ideas being formed from what people are telling you. Then what sir may I ask are you are doing? The question is rhetorical.

Are you trying to imply that I am being a hypocrite? Because if you are, I'd appreciate it if you pointed out exactly where I told you what to believe and not to believe. All I've been arguing for is just an open mind to different views and that Christians tend to close their minds to these views.

a reply to: Logarock

Don't you have the preconceived notion that the OP doesn't understand the bible? How can you tell from the little he has divulged other than his general opinion?

a reply to: DarknStormy

And the church is one of if not the richest institution in the world. You know the "Roman" Catholic Church? The church that started it all and gave us the bible we have today?

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

the great majority of those who profess to be 'christians' really aren't, i think even you know that, uhh, because of all those highlights you included back there

if a picture speaks a thousand words, what's the problem that i saw the picture, and was able to interpret it?

fwiw, i don't skim read an opening post (wouldn't that defeat the purpose?) and it took me more than 3 seconds to read the entire OP, not that i saw anything substantial in it..

i don't skim read the bible, i'm actually still reading through it all & i listen to it every night on my mp3 player.

i think you jumped the gun a little ..and probably have no idea what i was on about back there.. but hey, it's fine, if the OP wants to use two pictures of oranges to point out the fallacies of an apple, go right ahead

Don't you have the preconceived notion that the OP doesn't understand the bible? How can you tell from the little he has divulged other than his general opinion?

claiming the word of God is actually the word of the Devil is *kind of* a giveaway, don't you think?
what you said about the roman catholic church "starting this all" is another red herring..

with all due respect, you lot all just seem to be the cheer squad?
put your mouth where the money is, take the zeitgeist challenge?
tell us how it turns out?

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Logarock

Don't you have the preconceived notion that the OP doesn't understand the bible? How can you tell from the little he has divulged other than his general opinion?

No. I don't have a preconceived notion or any other notions but am certain of it.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: DarknStormy

And the church is one of if not the richest institution in the world. You know the "Roman" Catholic Church? The church that started it all and gave us the bible we have today?

Yes, I know that and that was exactly my point with Islam as a counter measure to the Holy Roman Empire/Roman Catholic Church.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
I've pointed this out to Christians before and they tend to not like to hear this line of reasoning. In their defense, it is hard to get an unbiased view of things you are invested in. Though one should recognize that this is the case and try to seek out opinions from outside your bubble to get an idea of what you may be missing, this is where Christians tend to fail.

This is a bunch of BS and sounds real good to folks with zero investment if you get the drift. At any estimation this is not an unbiased view. That's really all I am saying. This is where invested bible debunkers tend to fail. They sop up anything that even looks like a contrary view and call it unbiased. If fact I shouldn't even call them unbelievers but ax grinding mish mashers, hacks, cognitive dissidents and pissers.

Whoa there buddy, I never said that it was true. Personally, I don't think any of the Bible is true as written, regardless of who is the adversary and who is god. I'm just trying to say that it is an alternate perspective to the view that is proclaimed by Christians and is worth considering. It makes some valid points based on actions that GOD himself did in the bible. That's all. You sound like one of the Christians that I was talking about who cannot seek outside opinions from your bubble.

Well yea I expected you to say that.

The bubble here you speak of is one that simply occurs by isolation of certain areas of the bible. The points or some of them at issue are derived from that. It doesn't blow my mind that some folks would extrapolate that God would, can and does operate in a fashion that doesn't mesh with traditional views held by many Christians. I mean take your pick. God showing up to Job at the end of his testing's in the form of a whirlwind...when one just destroyed his home and children. The untrained and quick to pounce mind will conclude that God must be satan or as many christians do don't pay any attention to the glaring problem here. I suffer from neither conundrum.

Are you sure that your opinion isn't formed through preconceived notions from what other people have been telling you? Which came first, a pastor or parents telling you what to believe or you read the bible? If for instance, you were unexposed to Christianity, picked up the bible and formed these opinions based on the text without ANY outside influence guiding your decision making process, then maybe I can agree with you. But I'm willing to bet you were introduced to Christianity and its beliefs first THEN read the bible and interpreted accordingly.

You say that an untrained person would be quick to pounce and make these conclusions, but how about explaining why someone needs to be "trained" to read the bible to begin with. If the bible is truly the inspired word of god, it should be accessible to all levels of intellect, not just the intelligent or studied. I should be able to glance through the text and receive the same message as someone who has studied it for years.

Your are going to preach about ideas being formed from what people are telling you. Then what sir may I ask are you are doing? The question is rhetorical.

Are you trying to imply that I am being a hypocrite? Because if you are, I'd appreciate it if you pointed out exactly where I told you what to believe and not to believe. All I've been arguing for is just an open mind to different views and that Christians tend to close their minds to these views.

I am saying that any ideas that we are all simply dolt products of an institution and its teachers and don't and cant learn anything unbiased from another falls short. You for example don't know how much I love your opinions on political and social issues. And I mean that.

originally posted by: voyger2
a reply to: lupodigubbio

You don't need a book to tell you the truth. Your Heart, via Jesus, via the Holy Spirit will tell you the truth.

And consider in YOUR DAILY ACTIONS if you Practice in the Light or in the Dark:

www.biblegateway.com...

And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

John 3,19-21.

And I'm not imposing anything to you. It's only mine obligation to share the Truth, because I was lost, I was dead, and now I live!

i think you made one of the best points. the book and the church are not the focus. it's light and dark, love and hate. which do you seek? either way, in the end your path will determine what you discover.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
I've pointed this out to Christians before and they tend to not like to hear this line of reasoning. In their defense, it is hard to get an unbiased view of things you are invested in. Though one should recognize that this is the case and try to seek out opinions from outside your bubble to get an idea of what you may be missing, this is where Christians tend to fail.

This is a bunch of BS and sounds real good to folks with zero investment if you get the drift. At any estimation this is not an unbiased view. That's really all I am saying. This is where invested bible debunkers tend to fail. They sop up anything that even looks like a contrary view and call it unbiased. If fact I shouldn't even call them unbelievers but ax grinding mish mashers, hacks, cognitive dissidents and pissers.

Whoa there buddy, I never said that it was true. Personally, I don't think any of the Bible is true as written, regardless of who is the adversary and who is god. I'm just trying to say that it is an alternate perspective to the view that is proclaimed by Christians and is worth considering. It makes some valid points based on actions that GOD himself did in the bible. That's all. You sound like one of the Christians that I was talking about who cannot seek outside opinions from your bubble.

Well yea I expected you to say that.

The bubble here you speak of is one that simply occurs by isolation of certain areas of the bible. The points or some of them at issue are derived from that. It doesn't blow my mind that some folks would extrapolate that God would, can and does operate in a fashion that doesn't mesh with traditional views held by many Christians. I mean take your pick. God showing up to Job at the end of his testing's in the form of a whirlwind...when one just destroyed his home and children. The untrained and quick to pounce mind will conclude that God must be satan or as many christians do don't pay any attention to the glaring problem here. I suffer from neither conundrum.

Are you sure that your opinion isn't formed through preconceived notions from what other people have been telling you? Which came first, a pastor or parents telling you what to believe or you read the bible? If for instance, you were unexposed to Christianity, picked up the bible and formed these opinions based on the text without ANY outside influence guiding your decision making process, then maybe I can agree with you. But I'm willing to bet you were introduced to Christianity and its beliefs first THEN read the bible and interpreted accordingly.

You say that an untrained person would be quick to pounce and make these conclusions, but how about explaining why someone needs to be "trained" to read the bible to begin with. If the bible is truly the inspired word of god, it should be accessible to all levels of intellect, not just the intelligent or studied. I should be able to glance through the text and receive the same message as someone who has studied it for years.

Your are going to preach about ideas being formed from what people are telling you. Then what sir may I ask are you are doing? The question is rhetorical.

Are you trying to imply that I am being a hypocrite? Because if you are, I'd appreciate it if you pointed out exactly where I told you what to believe and not to believe. All I've been arguing for is just an open mind to different views and that Christians tend to close their minds to these views.

I am saying that any ideas that we are all simply dolt products of an institution and its teachers and don't and cant learn anything unbiased from another falls short. You for example don't know how much I love your opinions on political and social issues. And I mean that.

Well I appreciate that and just to let you know, I'm not trying to be offensive or anything. I just feel that there is some hypocrisy when it comes to this issue. One of the things that many Christians say is that Satan has influenced all walks of life including the church, our leaders, our society, everything. So it reasons to ask, why is the bible immune to this influence? Why is it that all these other things can be influenced and subverted by Satan, and going by Christians' own words, he has been at work doing this since the beginning of mankind, but the bible is somehow the one exception.

Like for instance, have you tried reading the bible like the OP suggests in that all references to God, are really references to the Satan and vice versa? It presents an entirely different view of how things are. I understand that this is anathema to your religion and that accepting this as true invalidates Christianity, but sometimes you have to risk disrupting your whole world view while in pursuit of the truth (like I said earlier, I'm not claiming that the OP's claims are true, just that it is always worth considering all angles). It's not like I started out as an agnostic. My trip to agnosticism took a while and I clung to abstract, non-denominational Christianity for a LONG time since I was disillusioned with organized religion, but then eventually I just let go and since I've done that, my mind can accept differing views much easier.

a reply to: lupodigubbio

The GREAT books are intended to assist. Over time MAN has engaged in self manipulation activities and has hindered thyselves from progression due to power hungry DEMONIC ACTING HUMAN beings taking advantage of the few - as they viewed themselves as the top of the pyramid- The fail is what sits above the pyramid, felt elite?

SKY LORD...
and so 1 feels its not wise to assume the top of the structured reality is the absolute TRUTH for many projecting from the tops are forgetting what made the structure(s)
the reminders from the SKY often readjust those confused & lost consciously/spiritually when the visitations re-occur... and the tops are asked for updates on their practices, and cant lie as a telepathic sense is associated to the askers.

NAMASTE*******

a reply to: UNIT76

i think you jumped the gun a little ..and probably have no idea what i was on about back there.. but hey, it's fine, if the OP wants to use two pictures of oranges to point out the fallacies of an apple, go right ahead

Possibly I did jump the gun. I knew you were exaggerating about the 3 seconds - but his provided images DO make a valid point - both of them.

A child can deduce that the Bible Stories are not true. I did as a child, so I know that to be the case.

I just wanted to also clarify that "you must be born again" means reincarnation - and that is the only interpretation - the literal one - that Christians reject. Why?

I'll let you figure out why. Jesus taught actual Reincarnation, of that I am certain. I "know it" to the depths of my soul.

I agree that yes, most people who call themselves Christians fall far, far short of the mark, and have only a pedestrian, indoctrinated understanding of what was being taught by the words of Jesus (whether he existed or not is irrelevant at this point). But you haven't explained WHY the chart made you toss out the entire OP as nonsense.

Also - the quote you copied in the second part of your reply to me was written by 3NL, I believe. Yet you didn't make that clear. Just in case he misses your response, you might want to add his name and a reply to tag.

It seems to me that the Christians on this forum make things FAR more complicated than Jesus ever intended. I believe he was a mystic, a gnostic, and no matter who calls those ideas "vapid" (I have a lot of respect for adjensen, by the way), they remain the closest thing to the truth that we have.

The Golden Rule, Reincarnation, and God being incomprehensible are the only messages that really matter.
The rest is fluffy fairy tales designed to control, intimidate, and CONFUSE the masses.

There's a good reason that the writings were held sacred for only the INITIATED to understand, and to try to get across the ideas to their congregations in a way they could understand. Unfortunately, giving everyone access to those writings made it into a circus of perpetual argument, division, hatred, superstition, and self-loathing.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I just wanted to also clarify that "you must be born again" means reincarnation - and that is the only interpretation - the literal one - that Christians reject. Why?

We reject it because it is obviously not about reincarnation.

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. (John 3:3-6 NIV)

Jesus clearly says that, to enter the Kingdom of God, you must be born of the flesh and the spirit, he does not say that you must be born of the flesh twice.

a reply to: adjensen

Jesus clearly says that, to enter the Kingdom of God, you must be born of the flesh and the spirit, he does not say that you must be born of the flesh twice.

Is the spirit not 'realized' in the flesh when a baby is born?
Of course it is.

The quotes you gave are perfect - he was talking about being reborn of water (amniotic fluid) and spirit (which quickens in the flesh during gestation).

And you forgot about him saying John was Elijah and no one recognized him.

adj, there are different ways of interpreting the words, and even you - a scholar and historian - have to admit that.
I choose to take it at 'face value' (if it was ever even uttered at all). You Must Be Born Again.

He didn't say "you must be baptized." He didn't say you must be flicked with holy water or submerged in the rooftop swimming pool at the local convention hotel (yes, I've seen that happen). He said You must be born again of water and spirit.
Period.

But we already know we don't agree on that issue, my friend. Still love ya!