The bible is the bait and hook the "devil" uses to get you.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Indoctrinating the youth without letting them come to their own beliefs naturally is pretty coercive in my book.

That's not all together true either, people can make a choice to accept Christ or not. In the church I grew up in we were not Baptized as babies, only as young adults, I never was baptized until I was in my thirties, and I did a lot of research .

I was raised in a devout Christian family, but always had questions, and the Bible says to test the spirits.

a reply to: Stormdancer777

But you and I both know that the majority of Christianity doesn't work that way. Giving your personal experience on how it went down is great, but that's not the norm. MY childhood consisted of being told that I was destined for hell if I didn't repent my sins weekly and take communion. I was baptized at a point of my life that I am physically unable to remember it happening. That is Catholicism and is one of the major religions of the world. Many many many different families and communities follow this way.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I attended many different churches and domination looking for answers, and never met anyone that was vicious.

Christianity is in a constant state of reform.

I'm 63 years old, I have spent a lot of time in churches of different doctrines and had many different experiences.

I don't go to church anymore though.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I would never want to be responsible for taking someones faith from them, losing faith is a horrible experience, it is traumatic, been there done that,

That is a cause of suffering also, live and let live.

a reply to: Stormdancer777

Isn't telling children, or anyone for that matter, that they are unworthy sinners that will burn in eternal hell if they don't toe the line with Jesus vicious? That they may be left behind when Jesus suddenly comes and raptures all the "good" people, while leaving everyone else to suffer at the hands of the Antichrist and die in Armageddon? That's vicious!

When I was a kid, being home alone, and not knowing if Jesus had come and left me behind, was absolutely terrifying for me. I would get on the phone and call the preacher's house. If no one answered, my fears grew and I'd call a deacon's house, and on and on until someone, who I knew would be raptured, answered the phone!

I cried my eyes out too many nights believing that my atheist grandparents, who I loved dearly, were going to hell. That's no way to raise a child.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I would never want to be responsible for taking someones faith from them, losing faith is a horrible experience, it is traumatic, been there done that,

That is a cause of suffering also, live and let live.

Well then you should support intellectual discourse and accept and provide for the challenges provided by disbelievers. If an atheist or agnostic asks for or demands evidence and you default to the position that you don't need to provide evidence, you aren't helping the situation. One of the biggest problems I've seen with Christians debating atheists and agnostics is that they assume that we don't want there to be a god or something. This isn't true, some (not all) of us DO want there to be a god, we just don't see the evidence for said god to be compelling enough to invest our belief and faith into it. Wouldn't you want us to believe as you do? So why so resistant to the demand for proof?

Have you never thought why this whole god thing depends on faith to begin with? Why can't it depend on evidence like everything else? Your god doesn't care enough to provide the proof of himself that would squelch beyond any reasonable doubt any agnostic's concerns. He doesn't care enough to correct the million plus different ways to interpret the bible. He doesn't care enough to root out the corruption in his church. All of these things (and more) are driving people away from Christianity by the boatload, yet your antiquated views on proof and faith remain steadfast even though it is killing your religion.

a reply to: lupodigubbio

Would Jesus really be considered a "great teacher" by stating he was God, but by your standards he is not really God?

If you read the book for its literature, you can discover the story gives a character Jesus who fulfills all the old laws everyone likes to get their panties in a twist about. Nobody could do what Jesus did and will do as stated by the story. Just because there were a handful of violent accounts in the beginning of the book, this makes us completely discredit everything? Do we discredit our own history filled with violence because they were violent? Much of it is a story of how people did what they wanted despite God... I just don't see the devil reference here. Sounds more like a bunch of whining about Moses smoking his neighbors, God destroying wicked people in a flood and Sodom, Jephthah doing a stupid-ass act that can be translated as either she died or she lived forever serving God as a virgin, lamb sacrificing, and one human sacrifice. This pales in comparison to what the story tells us will come from all of this... so do we keep crying and lying to everyone about what would be the most important area of life?

Now if you want to step back and use the "look at the billions of religions" claim, there's more of a conversation... and by the narrow gate claim, it seems we all should be "other" religion based. Haha


And someone else brought up Satan infiltrating modern churches - try the oldest church of all time - the Catholic church. This is the most twisted view of Christianity there is on the planet, even more than JW's and Mormon's in my opinion. They completely change the story, and add books upon books which they say are divine and there are one billion mislead people who could possibly jeopardize their salvation if christianity is true. I would say yes to this, Satan is lying the strongest within christianity itself... it's a crazy place. Now if you don't believe Xtianity, then I would just explain this as "Christians don't know what the f*** they are doing", but when they do theyre usually a leader of some corrupt cult tangent of what is really written from ancient times. Either because they are too psychotic to notice, or they realize what kind of corruption they can create and have fun with. It's easy to discover the true root philosophy of christianity if you just open up the book. Sitting and bickering over trivial stories to discredit everything Jesus laid down isn't appropriate... as well as stating christians are the reason christianity is false - humans are easily misled, but do not judge a philosophy by its abuse.

Sorry for the rant order of this post... peace

a reply to: Krazysh0t

just a quick question, but what goes through your head while talking to a christian and using the words "your god"?

it seems like a huge insult from my side of the fence, but i really want to know if you're using it out of contempt or neutrally to speak about Jesus/God

also you bring up good points as some atheists do want there to be a god. it IS unfortunate we humans focus so hardcore onto empirical data.. because regardless of what religion you want to dig into, none of them are based in that world. so the "burden of proof" would be on every religion of the world, not just christianity.

now if we are to follow the literature, the God of the Christian bible verryyy much cares about corruption, otherwise it wouldn't be written about so much. it predicts corruption in the church itself, and so much of it calls out false prophets, and people who will call themselves "christians" - how do you not see that? i have a bad feeling you'll just counter-argue that this is circular logic or saving ones own arse by writing this before it happens... but look at the prophecies it claims throughout the story.

one needs to study proper translation seriously. too many people pick up some version of the bible because someone else tells them to... this isn't okay. it seriously damages the philosophy. many MANY wise and intelligent scholars have created proper translations over the years, and you can find them if you just research. this wonderful invention called the internet helps weed out the improper translations (of which were prophesied/written to exist) - and one should study what the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words hold to complete translation in tandem to reading a proper translation. at this point can you really start to understand what is written in the book....

but all these cults of christianity are NOT helping indeed... warmongering from christianity is incorrect, supporting human sacrifice is incorrect, hating others.... the list can go on and on..... the lies are right in front of your face, but yet you want to blame the philosophy instead of blaming the people who terribly twist it so obviously. don't LISTEN to these people, hammer it yourself with extensive research if you are truly intrigued by Christianity.

edit: i'm not in this thread to proclaim Christianity as true and shove it down your face - i'm here to set the record straight that it is completely misinterpreted and billions of people have it all wrong, and if you want to consider it as your religion then you need to know these things and not naively judge the true teachings

originally posted by: Myollinir
a reply to: Krazysh0t

just a quick question, but what goes through your head while talking to a christian and using the words "your god"?

Because it isn't my god anymore. My idea of what god is and isn't if he exists is VASTLY different then the god of the Christian religion. For one, a real god of the universe would care little for anything that occurred on this planet given its size and importance to the universe as a whole. But that is a whole other debate. Glad you asked though.

it seems like a huge insult from my side of the fence, but i really want to know if you're using it out of contempt or neutrally to speak about Jesus/God

It's just a phrase to let you know that I don't consider the Christian god my god.

also you bring up good points as some atheists do want there to be a god. it IS unfortunate we humans focus so hardcore onto empirical data.. because regardless of what religion you want to dig into, none of them are based in that world. so the "burden of proof" would be on every religion of the world, not just christianity.

I'm agnostic so I already believe all of what you just said here.

now if we are to follow the literature, the God of the Christian bible verryyy much cares about corruption, otherwise it wouldn't be written about so much. it predicts corruption in the church itself, and so much of it calls out false prophets, and people who will call themselves "christians" - how do you not see that? i have a bad feeling you'll just counter-argue that this is circular logic or saving ones own arse by writing this before it happens... but look at the prophecies it claims throughout the story.

Writing about corruption happening is like writing about the tides coming in and out. It's inevitable given any organization. What matters is the actions taken to squelch it. Seeing that corruption is so widespread throughout Christianity tells me that God has no desire to help his own believers out of a dark spot. He leaves them in the dark and arms them with "faith" and that they believe the correct thing even though the person telling them what to believe could be dead wrong. He does nothing to help lead them back to the correct path if they are lead astray either knowingly or unknowingly. The knowingly thing is fine, because that is a conscious decision to partake in, but the unknowingly thing is unacceptable. These people are TRYING to follow god but because they are being duped by a corrupt individual, they are practicing and doing the wrong things to go about it. This is unfair for them spiritually, yet God does nothing to fix this.

one needs to study proper translation seriously. too many people pick up some version of the bible because someone else tells them to... this isn't okay. it seriously damages the philosophy. many MANY wise and intelligent scholars have created proper translations over the years, and you can find them if you just research. this wonderful invention called the internet helps weed out the improper translations (of which were prophesied/written to exist) - and one should study what the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words hold to complete translation in tandem to reading a proper translation. at this point can you really start to understand what is written in the book....

Another fallacy of the bible is that it has to be read by intellectuals to be understood properly. Well not everyone is book smart or capable of that level of critical thinking. If a holy book was truly intended to reach the minds of as many people as possible, it should be easily understood by ANYONE and in ANY language without any discrepancies.

but all these cults of christianity are NOT helping indeed... warmongering from christianity is incorrect, supporting human sacrifice is incorrect, hating others.... the list can go on and on..... the lies are right in front of your face, but yet you want to blame the philosophy instead of blaming the people who terribly twist it so obviously. don't LISTEN to these people, hammer it yourself with extensive research if you are truly intrigued by Christianity.

I do blame the people, but at the same time I also doubt the claims of their holy book. Two separate issues in my eyes. The golden rule is literally the only redeeming feature I can think of from the bible, everything else is a tall tale, cult of personality, natural disaster, or schizophrenic account.

edit: i'm not in this thread to proclaim Christianity as true and shove it down your face - i'm here to set the record straight that it is completely misinterpreted and billions of people have it all wrong, and if you want to consider it as your religion then you need to know these things and not naively judge the true teachings

Let's be clear here, ALL religions are awful. If your religion feels the need to organize into a strict dogma, you are doing it wrong. But that still doesn't let the bible off the hook for its outlandish claims, but at the same time time, other books such as the torah and the qu'ran also have to provide the proof of their claims as well.

''If I die before I wake, pray the Lord my soul to take.''

The Lord is Lucifer
The light is Lucifer

Don`t follow the light, it`s a trap...unless you want to come back here and relive the lie.
At least, that's what I can deduct till now.

a reply to: theMediator

''If I die before I wake, pray the Lord my soul to take.''

My husband sings: "If I die before I wake, feed Jake. He's been a good dog..."

I don't know what you would call it, but it is just the Christian faith that most atheist hate, if they were honest with themselves, they would be dissecting all faiths with the same fervor..

They spread the anti gospel with more passion then most Christian spread the faith.
www.christiantoday.com...

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Writing about corruption happening is like writing about the tides coming in and out. It's inevitable given any organization. What matters is the actions taken to squelch it. Seeing that corruption is so widespread throughout Christianity tells me that God has no desire to help his own believers out of a dark spot. He leaves them in the dark and arms them with "faith" and that they believe the correct thing even though the person telling them what to believe could be dead wrong. He does nothing to help lead them back to the correct path if they are lead astray either knowingly or unknowingly. The knowingly thing is fine, because that is a conscious decision to partake in, but the unknowingly thing is unacceptable. These people are TRYING to follow god but because they are being duped by a corrupt individual, they are practicing and doing the wrong things to go about it. This is unfair for them spiritually, yet God does nothing to fix this.

Isn't it crazy? There are close people I know who are being duped... This is completely unfair, merely on a fundamental basis of logic - towards the read of these holy books level. It is really hitting home for me right now how lost people can be into the dark ocean of belief, and it might not even be the right one... I'll admit to you that I AM seeking Jesus (you might have gained that from my speaking above). I am also human.

Let's assume the Christian God is real - Do you think there's some reason for this much hiding of the truth? (Truth being true God/Jesus/Holy Spirit/yaddyyadda) Why would this exist across the entire world? It's a perplexing question.. I want to take free will into consideration, but when you point it out it really seems like God is just creating some kind of free-for-all arena where subjectivity is all anyone has. I can't blame another brother for being born into another culture and feeling supernatural vibes there... I put that into my mentality and consider why I was born where I was, and why I've come to believe what I believe. And then I imagine someone from an eastern religion approaching me and telling me they are the truth, just as Christians do... and seeing myself reflected on both parties. Some less harsh form of indoctrination... simply just being born into a certain area. Keeps me up at night. The only thing that keeps me hanging is what you would more than happily label as psychopathic behavior... haha. (Well maybe not, but I don't take offense to this kind of wording so grab on if you want to.)

Another fallacy of the bible is that it has to be read by intellectuals to be understood properly. Well not everyone is book smart or capable of that level of critical thinking. If a holy book was truly intended to reach the minds of as many people as possible, it should be easily understood by ANYONE and in ANY language without any discrepancies.

You have a point, because it is so easily mistaken. It's like giving someone a 100-sided rubix cube... I do want to point out the deliberate mis-translations from cults, which do not help this particular problem. When I say intellectuals (per translation) I mean people who know language, and purposely do not mistranslate original texts. As for figuring out what it all means after the words are correct, your point stands on this ground... It takes me many years, reading the same passages over and over to discover what it's trying to say. And some people go their whole lives being wrong about it, but this could arguably be subjective error on my part.

I do blame the people, but at the same time I also doubt the claims of their holy book. Two separate issues in my eyes. The golden rule is literally the only redeeming feature I can think of from the bible, everything else is a tall tale, cult of personality, natural disaster, or schizophrenic account.

Not to be cliche, but the ten commandments aren't all that ridiculous. They don't sound too darn bad... assuming you believe in the christian God. Otherwise I'd only say a few are still good. It is pretty sad though to call the root philosophy as cultist/disastrous/or schizophrenic. The only part you'd disagree with is which bright light you're nodding your head to...

Let's be clear here, ALL religions are awful. If your religion feels the need to organize into a strict dogma, you are doing it wrong. But that still doesn't let the bible off the hook for its outlandish claims, but at the same time time, other books such as the torah and the qu'ran also have to provide the proof of their claims as well.

"religion" - if you ask me, Jesus came to abolish religion. The teachings are pretty dang clear. Religion breeds hypocrisy and mistreatment of humans. I agree the claims are completely monstrous in comparison to empirical evidence needed... but it all revolves in the anti-space, anti-nature, anti-time and that's a little hard to measure. Perhaps my conscience is only being tapped because I am legally insane? Perhaps the teachings make sense because they are subjectively true. Or perhaps I'm right? Maybe wrong...

I'll stick here and try to bring the philosophy back to what it is though, you betcha.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

If someone genuinely wanted to know, I would be glad to share what I believe, and witness, you have already made up you mind.

Yet when that one I have spoken to you about comes--the Spirit of truth--he will guide you into everything that is true."

a reply to: Stormdancer777

Christianity is the only religion that preaches Hell and damnation to everyone who doesn't believe what they do...

The problem with this is that there are so many variations of Christianity that it means everyone is going to hell according to Christianity because Christians can't even figure out what is correct in the first place...

IF Christians didn't preach hell and hatred... it wouldn't be thrown back in their faces...

Christianity Is the cause of Atheism... IF Christians kept their beliefs to themselves... Atheism wouldn't have been a problem for their religion in the first place

a reply to: Akragon

I don't believe in hell , It is mistranslation or misinterpretation, as far as I am concerned, and many churches feel the same way now days.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: Krazysh0t

If someone genuinely wanted to know, I would be glad to share what I believe, and witness, you have already made up you mind.

Have I? Well it's a good thing you told me that, I've always thought that I'm an agnostic and given enough proof of something being true, I'd be willing to change my stance on a subject. I'm glad that you can tell me what I'm thinking, now I won't make THAT mistake again.

Sarcasm aside, I will say that if what you have to offer is just anecdotal evidence of what you think you've seen and witnessed, then yes you are right I have already made up my mind because that type of proof doesn't cut it.

Yet when that one I have spoken to you about comes--the Spirit of truth--he will guide you into everything that is true."

I guess we shall see, but something tells me that you and I will be dead before anything of the sort happens if anything happens at all.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: Akragon

I don't believe in hell , It is mistranslation or misinterpretation, as far as I am concerned, and many churches feel the same way now days.

Well you are one of the few... but you're correct in any case

I was brought up in the Christian faith myself... Always considered myself Christian until I actually started learning about the history of Christianity and the actual teaching of Jesus... THAT is when I learned that I am no Christian

Many people ask why... Even my mother gets pissed when I tell her im not a Christian...

Yet the answer is very simple... I don't want to group myself in with Christians or be labeled as such because of the way Christians treat people that aren't in their little club...

Jesus tells us not to judge others... yet Christians are the most judgemental and hypocritical people on this planet...

Not all of course... but most...

A good portion of Christianity believes in things that were designed by the early church Fathers and NOT the person the religion was based around...

People have basically had enough of it.... Christianity caused Atheism, and theres even a brand of Satanism that is based around openly mocking the Christian religion...

People say the Christian religion is the most persecuted religion in this age.... well Every bit of it was caused by what Christians turned the religion into... an intolerant hypocritical mess

Its sad really....

IF Christ ever does return to this planet.... The first people he will be dealing with are the people who Claim Christianity... And IF there is a Hell.... There are more Christians there then anything else

originally posted by: Myollinir
a reply to: Krazysh0t
Isn't it crazy? There are close people I know who are being duped... This is completely unfair, merely on a fundamental basis of logic - towards the read of these holy books level. It is really hitting home for me right now how lost people can be into the dark ocean of belief, and it might not even be the right one... I'll admit to you that I AM seeking Jesus (you might have gained that from my speaking above). I am also human.

Let's assume the Christian God is real - Do you think there's some reason for this much hiding of the truth? (Truth being true God/Jesus/Holy Spirit/yaddyyadda) Why would this exist across the entire world? It's a perplexing question.. I want to take free will into consideration, but when you point it out it really seems like God is just creating some kind of free-for-all arena where subjectivity is all anyone has. I can't blame another brother for being born into another culture and feeling supernatural vibes there... I put that into my mentality and consider why I was born where I was, and why I've come to believe what I believe. And then I imagine someone from an eastern religion approaching me and telling me they are the truth, just as Christians do... and seeing myself reflected on both parties. Some less harsh form of indoctrination... simply just being born into a certain area. Keeps me up at night. The only thing that keeps me hanging is what you would more than happily label as psychopathic behavior... haha. (Well maybe not, but I don't take offense to this kind of wording so grab on if you want to.)

This is why I default to agnosticism. These questions and concerns bother me and the answers given don't seem good enough to explain why this is the case. In fact, most of the answers given sound more like rationalizations for these inconsistencies. Until I can get adequate answers for these questions then I will not budge on the theism side of my beliefs. I will default to just saying that "I do not know." It's really not a scary thing to be aware that you do not know the answer, but so many are terrified of admitting this, they make up feel good stories and gods to help them sleep at night.

You have a point, because it is so easily mistaken. It's like giving someone a 100-sided rubix cube... I do want to point out the deliberate mis-translations from cults, which do not help this particular problem. When I say intellectuals (per translation) I mean people who know language, and purposely do not mistranslate original texts. As for figuring out what it all means after the words are correct, your point stands on this ground... It takes me many years, reading the same passages over and over to discover what it's trying to say. And some people go their whole lives being wrong about it, but this could arguably be subjective error on my part.

But even the gross misinterpretations of the bible from cults are valid. They make good reasonable points from the bible, and who is to say that their interpretation of things isn't correct? God nor Jesus have shown up to clarify that they are doing it wrong. You employ the no true Scotsman fallacy if you try to claim that these people aren't really Christians.

Not to be cliche, but the ten commandments aren't all that ridiculous. They don't sound too darn bad... assuming you believe in the christian God. Otherwise I'd only say a few are still good. It is pretty sad though to call the root philosophy as cultist/disastrous/or schizophrenic. The only part you'd disagree with is which bright light you're nodding your head to...

The parts of the ten commandments that I would consider ok are just specific applications of violating the Golden Rule. Sure the commandments came first, but the Golden Rule is simpler and encompasses SO much more.

"religion" - if you ask me, Jesus came to abolish religion. The teachings are pretty dang clear. Religion breeds hypocrisy and mistreatment of humans. I agree the claims are completely monstrous in comparison to empirical evidence needed... but it all revolves in the anti-space, anti-nature, anti-time and that's a little hard to measure. Perhaps my conscience is only being tapped because I am legally insane? Perhaps the teachings make sense because they are subjectively true. Or perhaps I'm right? Maybe wrong...

I'll stick here and try to bring the philosophy back to what it is though, you betcha.

Here's a picture that should show how insignificant we are in the entirety of the universe.



Ignore the Are we alone? part and just focus on the scales of these objects. Answer me why a god or gods that created the universe would even begin to care about that small blue speck in the vast void of space.

I just want to be clear here. (Stormdancer777 take note too) I think that a god is ENTIRELY possible. I just think that if it exists, it is indifferent to our actions here. It may even value life, but if that is the case it values ALL life, not just human life (which would make humans' actions against the environment sinful). But in the end, this god understands that no matter what you or I or ANYONE else does on this planet does, given enough time, will not only not matter, but be forgotten about. It's all insignificant.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I guess we shall see, but something tells me that you and I will be dead before anything of the sort happens if anything happens at all.

How odd I was thinking the same thing.

Synchronicity, anyone?