NJ Public School sued over "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance

a reply to: AfterInfinity

Like how many of our "Christians" scarred their land?

This is not about different religion, it seems the thread is derail that way tho, its about "God" in the school pledge.

originally posted by: 200Plus
What would you expect from a religious book? Confirmation of other religions? Show me ANY religious text that elevates other religions to an equal footing.

Hey, you're the one that claimed that the bible was ok with lots of gods....

You guys don't seem to understand that there is a difference between "gods" and "God" as far as the bible is concerned. Let's just be clear that the capitalized word "God" means the biblical God, of which, there is only one. Any other "god" spoken of in the bible is referring to FALSE gods.

Now, in the Pledge of Allegiance, the word is capitalized, meaning the God of the Christian bible.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

I have been shot at by hundreds of Muslims. I have been blown up by a few too.

I have never met a bad Muslim. Maybe they just stay away and attack at range.

The ones I got within speaking distance to were some of the nicest people I have ever met.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Please show me where I claimed that the Bible was "OK" with anything. HAHAHA

EDIT - I would agree with your edited post 100%. I never said anything contrary to that in any of my posts.

The "under God" is no different than "Endowed by their creator". We can all assume that it is the Christian God or we can assume that it is what the Christians would call a false god.

a reply to: 200Plus

You know what you said. I'm done with this stupid game of yours.

originally posted by: 200Plus
The "under God" is no different than "Endowed by their creator". We can all assume that it is the Christian God or we can assume that it is what the Christians would call a false god.

I have to disagree to some extent. When the Founders were composing many of the documents will still look to today their belief in God was not strictly a Christian concept as many of them did not believe in the Divinity of Christ and therefore the Christian God was not who they were referring to in phrases such as , 'Nature's God' (from the Declaration of Independence).

The persons who pushed to have the words 'Under God' added to the Pledge of Allegiance were the Knights of Columbus and were most likely referring to the Christian God.

On a personal note, as a Mason, God equals the Creator of the Universe and is not constrained by the language of choice in the particular conversation.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

That makes perfect sense.

I just see both as open to personal interpretation.

I have no doubt that the Christian God is the one referred to in the pledge. I think their hands were tied and they had to use simply "God" rather than actually nailing it down as a Christian nation.

originally posted by: thisguyrighthere
a reply to: saneguy

Exactly. It's creepy as # to stand a bunch of children up and have them recite an allegiance pledge.

Is this 2014 or 9th century feudalistic Europe?

I'm in South Jersey, and our elementary school still says the pledge as it is. They also say a second, school type pledge after that....My son does the announcements every morning, even I was surprised they still said the pledge. I'm o.k. With it though....

originally posted by: 200Plus
I have no doubt that the Christian God is the one referred to in the pledge. I think their hands were tied and they had to use simply "God" rather than actually nailing it down as a Christian nation.

The use of anything more specific would have, in my opinion, been immediately struck down by the Supreme Court as violating the establishment clause.

The New Jersey statute does not violate the establishment clause as it includes and opt-out clause. This aspect has strong legal precedent so I am at a loss why the suit in the Original Post was even filed.

originally posted by: luciddream
a reply to: AfterInfinity

Like how many of our "Christians" scarred their land?

This is not about different religion, it seems the thread is derail that way tho, its about "God" in the school pledge.

Like I said - if you don't want to say that segment, then shut your mouth until its over before joining the rest of the class in finishing the pledge. If, at that point, you are penalized or threatened with penalization...then it becomes a problem.

Since Francis Bellamy was a devout socialist and collectivist, I have no problem removing the bit of crap known as "The Pledge of Allegiance" from all schools.

No pledge should be forced on kids because the idea of governments is absurd, all governments should be absolved and the people should rule themselves living however they please and by any laws they want to abide by.

But that is nonsense. We need governments to keep society orderly.

Is that what you thought in response to my call to abolish all government? That is likely what your response was. The belief that governments are necessary. What is that? Opinion? Fact? Statement? I would categorize it as philosophy. Philosophy is the studying of human nature. Do antelope or eagles or squirrels live under governments? No. Governments are a human invention and the statement that governments are necessary is a philosophical belief.

Not everyone realizes this, but the United States is one of the only, if not THE ONLY civilization to have lasted for more than a few decades whose foundation is based upon philosophy. Some governments were founded out of the belief that governments serve the purpose of allowing divine royalty to exercise their god-given powers. Other governments were formed under the belief that they are necessary to rule the people, or to provide for the people. The United States was not founded based on the Divine Right of Kings, class uniformity nor nationalism. Our government, our Declaration of Independence, our Constitution and the contents within it are all based upon the greatest philosophical thoughts in the world.

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

It is not what the U.S. government COULD do that made this country great. It is what our government CAN'T do. The philosophy of the fathers was All men are created equal and are endowed upon themselves inalienable rights. To preserve these rights we instill governments by the permission of the ruled but when governments infringe on rights it is the duty of the people to alter or abolish them.

What are governments made for? Protecting the people.
What do they protect? Rights that were granted to people by no government but by birth right.
Who creates governments? The people.
What justification do governments have to rule? Consent of the people.
What happens when governments fail to do what they were created for? They are abolished.

A pledge of Allegiance is brainwashing kids

No it is not. The pledge of Allegiance roots into the minds of all people what the purpose of government is.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America

Means that you are faithful to this country, not to a foreign country, not to all the world. Pledging allegiance to the whole world is pointless, as you would pledge allegiance to multiple governments that contradict each other or to an all powerful world government that is all corrupt.

and to the republic
This is the one and only instance most people will hear this country referred to as a republic. A republic, by definition, is a country ruled by laws that apply to all men, laws that limit the power of the powerful and grants power to the powrless

for which it stands
The reason governments are created

One nation
one UNITED STATES

under god
The god that gave you your rights to bear arms, to free speech, to trial by jury, to property, and the right that you will not be denied rights not mentioned in the Bill of Rights

indivisible
A nation that solves its problems with the pen, not the sword

Liberty and Justice for all
Laws, justice and freedoms that apply to all people


Without knowing this stuff, people believe governments are great because of what they CAN do.

What if you believe your rights come from government, instead of God. Government will give you more rights. The people vote for who will give them the most funds out of the public treasury. Government giving you the right to healthcare means government defines who is in the greatest need of healthcare and what the best medical choice is. Government decides how much to tax food as a deterrent to unhealthy eating. Government can ban any food source out of its regulation, from organic farms to bake sales which has already been seen in Massachussetts. Government has the final say in who lives and who dies.

The canadian government has outlawed "hate speech" against homosexuals. Here is a scenario: parliament passes a law that schools have to standardize a survey for all children to take which can predict if children will turn out to be homosexual based on the answers. This way, the school can give them advice on how to "come out" of the closet. Criticizing this law is a hate crime. The government standardized tests can be used to coerce children to abandon their own family's culture and to conform to "gay culture" which is purely a product of what gays do on television programming.

Can government redistribute the wealth? Social security started out as a voluntary service. No longer. Only one percent of your income went toward social security. No longer. Social security promised to pay back money to everyone that invested in it. No longer. The social security funds would not be used as part of the public treasury. No longer. Social security was intended to be a temporary solution to a temporary problem. The president that phases out social security will be overthrown. Wealth is more inequal today than ever. The solution people believe in is more government.

The pledge is nothing but statist brainwashing anyway, with or without God in it.

originally posted by: AfterInfinity

originally posted by: luciddream
a reply to: AfterInfinity

Like how many of our "Christians" scarred their land?

This is not about different religion, it seems the thread is derail that way tho, its about "God" in the school pledge.

Like I said - if you don't want to say that segment, then shut your mouth until its over before joining the rest of the class in finishing the pledge. If, at that point, you are penalized or threatened with penalization...then it becomes a problem.

That's exactly what my son does! We introduced our children to religion, then basically let them decide what they want to believe. Well, my 13 yr. old is a science kid, so he's just not comfortable saying 'under God', so when he gets to that part during announcements, he holds the phone out, and the 2 girls say that part. He's very good at respecting others beliefs....

What is it that these anti-everything groups always say when the barrel is aimed at them? Have "tolerance"? Well, they need to have some tolerance too!

originally posted by: NavyDoc
Since Francis Bellamy was a devout socialist and collectivist, I have no problem removing the bit of crap known as "The Pledge of Allegiance" from all schools.

So on principle, anything related to any known socialist is considered by you to be crap?

originally posted by: AfterInfinity

originally posted by: NavyDoc
Since Francis Bellamy was a devout socialist and collectivist, I have no problem removing the bit of crap known as "The Pledge of Allegiance" from all schools.

So on principle, anything related to any known socialist is considered by you to be crap?

Since socialism is a crap philosophy, yes, it is.

a reply to: MisterMandlebrot



i quote "are created equal and are endowed upon themselves inalienable rights"

u missed a part.

by their Creator,,part... u know the part that keeps disapearing.

a reply to: BobAthome

I don't know about you, but my Creator(s) were my mom and dad.