A serious look at a NATO/US vs Russian Conflict

a reply to: Davian

I see your point, the political climate between the US and Germany/France isn't the best atm. We will see if something happens after Merkel has visited Washington.
It's fairly obvious that Germany wants a more neutral stance to Russia, because the german economy is hurt bigtime, if there were severe sanctions on Russia. And the german economy keeps most of Europe afloat.
I don't think that Europe could risk any further sanctions, even if the US is crying bloody murder, because it could nearly destroy whats left of the european economy.

originally posted by: Talliostro
a reply to: Davian

I see your point, the political climate between the US and Germany/France isn't the best atm. We will see if something happens after Merkel has visited Washington.
It's fairly obvious that Germany wants a more neutral stance to Russia, because the german economy is hurt bigtime, if there were severe sanctions on Russia. And the german economy keeps most of Europe afloat.
I don't think that Europe could risk any further sanctions, even if the US is crying bloody murder, because it could nearly destroy whats left of the european economy.

Yeah that's the big thing a lot of my fellow Americans seem to overlook when taking into consideration the US/Russia strife going on atm, they refuse to look at the economic/financial aspect of it and automatically assume that due to the US' and EU's martial cooperation over the Cold War against the USSR that this still applies in this day and age despite how different the political and economic landscape is in post-Cold War world. If our leaders keep pushing away the EU its going to end very badly for . . . US.

originally posted by: Talliostro
I think we have to blame our politicians for the state of the Bundeswehr and noone else. We could have a bigger and better trained army a long time ago, but noone bothered about it in the last decade.

Well, not noone, but there is truth to what you say.
The criticism from Wehrbeauftragten and BW-Generalinspekteuren was ignored over and over again, I agree about that.
Regarding "limitation from the outside": granted, it's not the Americans who are the main hindering part. They even requested more defense-expenditure from us (although what they mean by that is more involvement in their wars).
The strongest example I can think of are Type U212A Subs. Do you know how many we sold (or "gifted")? And what do we keep... 4 of them.
If our politicians even dared to change this policy, guess what reaction we would get from our neighbours... and from how you post I take it you are well aware of the (still bad) state of the ESVP.
Generell müssen wir endlich anfangen "dürfen" drüber nachzudenken uns im Verteidigungsfall auch unabhängig (auch von den Amis) behaupten zu können. Das ist aber (m.E.) immernoch unerwünscht.

Now back on topic: the rest your post is very good and I agree with every part of it, especially the last part:

originally posted by: Talliostro
I guess, we won't see that and I hope, that this whole "conflict" can be solved through Diplomacy. I don't need to see Europe ruined again because US and Russia get hotheaded.

a reply to: Davian

Exactly.
Just an FYI in that context:

RUSSIAN COUNTER-MEASURES
Russia's deputy economy minister has said that Russia would respond symmetrically to any sanctions imposed by the U.S. and EU - implying in the initial phase visa bans and asset freezes in Russia on western officials identified by Russia as responsible for western policy towards Ukraine. Some other Russian officials and commentators have hinted at more drastic steps. A senior parliamentarian has proposed a law that would enable Russia to seize western companies' and individuals' property and accounts in response to western sanctions.

Factbox: Western sanctions against Russia (Reuters)

But how high could the price get for the Germans if an economic war ensues and escalates? Corporate representatives and lobbyists are already busy drafting horror scenarios. They claim energy supplies could be at risk and that upwards of 300,000 jobs could be threatened. "I am very worried that we are going to unleash a downward spiral of sanctions and counter-sanctions that don't help anyone," said Eckhard Cordes, chairman of the Committee on Eastern European Economic Relations, an organization representing German business interests in the east.

Economic War with Russia: A High Price for German Business (Der Spiegel)

"We should avoid a revival of the cold war at all costs. It would hurt Germany and Europe, politically aswell as economically.
Our economic ties with Russia are extensive. More than 6000 German companies invested more than 20 billion USD in Russia," said Fitschen - President of the Association of German Banks (BdB)

(my translation)
Krim-Krise: Deutsche Wirtschaft warnt vor Sanktionen gegen Russland (Der Spiegel, German version)

Just logged back in after a several years absence.....


AND BOY DID THIS CONVERSATION AGE PRETTY WELL!