I am the Patriarchy

a reply to: BDBinc

The woman you shut in the door did not say "I am a feminist" (*nor did she say she was your mother) yet you reacted to her( rejection) by shutting the door on her .
This unkind act of yours was used as an opening for you to rant, reducing human beings to their gender.
You have not grasped or questioned why that the same concept "feminism" that you approved of for your mother now you disapprove of in woman. You label female human being as " feminists " and disapprove of them when you dress them up in your mothers ideology.


LesMisanthrope[/post]
" She had two bags I think. She didn’t struggle in the slightest. My relating of the story was conceived after the fact. I didn’t close the door on her"

The story is changing as you had told us that she did struggle.

LesMisanthrope[/post]." In apology for my oppressive act, I let the door go and it closed on her mid-stride, thereby allowing her to struggle with her shopping bag."

It's nothing a bit of therapy couldn't fix.

I don't know if English is your second language, but a little study of syntax and semantics might further your skills.

No where did I say she struggled. Just read it a little more slowly next time, one word after the next without skipping any of them, and without making stuff up. Seriously try it. It might help.

Feminists are of all gender in case you haven't noticed. No where am I speaking about women in general as you are.

Read it again, I'll help:

"I let the door go"—not "I shut the door on her".

"thereby allowing her to struggle with her shopping bag"—not "she struggled".

Do I really need to explain this stuff? If you don't understand the difference, a simple look in the dictionary might help. I'm here for you if you need me to help.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: kaylaluv

Now I'm a liar. You might want to read again. I said I "allowed her to struggle with her shopping bags", meaning I gave her the opportunity.

Ah yes, now you are using semantics to change your story around and make yourself look better. What does "is" mean anyway?

a reply to: kaylaluv

Its you using semantics to change my story and make me look bad. We can read it together if you wish.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Your replies reveal the reason why the whole story you told is better suited to the rant category.

You closed the door on another human being, there is no need to further explain this act as you have already told all that is needed .
You want us to believe that you did as the woman wished, that she wanted you to shut the door on her, and that you( gave her permission) " allowed " her to have the door shut on her.

Your hate is not good for you.

a reply to: BDBinc

Your replies reveal the reason why the whole story you told is better suited to the rant category.

You closed the door on another human being, there is no need to further explain this act as you have already told all that is needed .
You want us to believe that you did as the woman wished, that she wanted you to shut the door on her, and that you( gave her permission) " allowed " her to have the door shut on her.

Your hate is not good for you.

I am 100% healthy. My “hate” seems to be working quite well for me. I think your hate has clouded your reasoning and your humanity. I have done nothing wrong, and you’ve resorted to slander, name calling, and lies in an attempt to paint an evil picture of me in your own mind. Like all internet hatred, however, big swings and big misses. At least do it with some dignity.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

I am the Patriarchy

(caution: language)

The other day I had the fortunate chance to hold a door open for another human being. But as I did so, the human I opened the door for asserted that such common courtesy wasn’t necessary, that she “didn’t need a man to hold a door open” for her, and the unconscious act of this benign kindness was in some strange fantastical way an instance of tyranny. In apology for my oppressive act, I let the door go and it closed on her mid-stride, thereby allowing her to struggle with her shopping bags. I walked away in silence as she guffawed and shook her head in ironic indignation.

You can just don't open the door for anyone ,then the problem gone.I don't do this kind of behavior.

The thread is written by The Misanthrope - there is no opposite word for misogynist - the term used for the hatred of humankind is misanthrope.
Notice how the poster has trolled you all because he seems to enjoy winding everyone up and comes across disingenuous.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
The thread is written by The Misanthrope - there is no opposite word for misogynist - the term used for the hatred of humankind is misanthrope.
Notice how the poster has trolled you all because he seems to enjoy winding everyone up and comes across disingenuous.

I didn't feel the OP trolled me.

originally posted by: halfoldman
I'm just against the disposability of men as described by Farrell.

Men have died in their thousands and millions, for both Queens and Kings, and certainly not all women were always anti-war.

Society has changed (at least in the West) since Farrell's book on the Myth of Male Power.
We have more rights for fathers and even in some places, maternity leave for men.
Women are also less excluded (and men not immediately expected) to perform the most dangerous jobs.

People become more aware of social issues if both genders are considered as equally disposable or worthy of protecting.

What still floors is me is that while conscription for men hasn't been around for a while, it seems in some places men must register for some kind of potential conscription.
I'd say then women must register for some kind of civil service for a similar length of time.
Why should women advance their careers, while men must drop everything, when so much affirmative action already favors them?
That shows continuing attitudes of male disposability.
Obviously these "femi-Nazis" wouldn't even care much for their sons to have an equal shot at life.

In South Africa white women count as affirmative action candidates, yet many of them also supported apartheid and the erstwhile propaganda.
Meanwhile, white males, now aged around 40 and over, were conscripted by law, and had to spend years in the army, often with horrific experiences.
And yet, white males are the only ones excluded from affirmative action!

Interesting points you make, im rather interested in your idea that society views men as disposable.

Would you not agree that being disposable would depend large part on your social status? For example, if you're working class and no skill's, your more likely to be the first sacrificed rather than a middle-class man who brick lays for a living?

Please elaborate your thoughts.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
The thread is written by The Misanthrope - there is no opposite word for misogynist - the term used for the hatred of humankind is misanthrope.
Notice how the poster has trolled you all because he seems to enjoy winding everyone up and comes across disingenuous.

Good job on learning how to use Google. His name probably troubled your vocabulary, should have called you out on that earlier, but i held back.

He is not a troll, nor does having an opinion, He made many well written post.

Lurk More.

a reply to: luciddream

Well, I consider Lesmisanthrope a superior troll and believe he will be delighted about it.

I don't think the woman would have been considered a feminist. There wasn't nearly enough interaction and evidence to suggest that she was. She was probably trying to think proudly about herself. Some people don't want help with anything. Their pride takes over and they feel they should be able to do everything on their own. If they receive help in anyway, they begin to think that they are weak in some way. It's kind of like how you offer someone money while they're in financial trouble and they refusing saying "I don't need your money!"

On the other hand, maybe this woman has had men that have let her down thorough out her life. Perhaps she had grown too dependent and now wants to feel as if they can be independent and be able to do anything on their own. If that were the case, that wouldn't mean that she has hatred for all men in general though.

But saying that they are a feminist right off the bat seems a little to extreme. You probably simply encountered a proud, or a bitter person. Or maybe they were simply having a bad week/day.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Good for you being willing to help a person out who had thier hands full. How dare you help a person out with thier hands full. I appreciated the humor in you letting the door shut in reply to said person's response. Man or female, I would have busted out laughing and kept on rolling. People complain about the strangest things... just ask anyone who has ever been sued for saving another person's life via CPR or dislodging food and breaking a rib.

I could only suffer through the first page of conversation regarding this topic because it was digging way to deep.

As for the semantics of it all...I can do without delving into that. Instead, that person would have shared 30 seconds of my life and I would have had a funny story to tell while sharing a drink with my buddies.

This part had me laughing audibly, cheers!

"In apology for my oppressive act, I let the door go and it closed on her mid-stride, thereby allowing her to struggle with her shopping bags. I walked away in silence as she guffawed and shook her head in ironic indignation."

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Well then...

Not really in the mood for slinging mud, so, I definitely vote for conversation... :-)

1. First, perhaps a man shouldn’t attempt to define feminism. We could never expect an ideology concerned with equal rights to allow any man to do so. So far I’ve got “Feminism is about equal rights”. But that would entail feminism is about both woman’s and men’s rights. I don’t see that as the case, and is perhaps an unwarranted dogma. What’s your take?

Your first sentence is something that baffles me. What's to define - and why would it be up to men to define it in the first place? This idea...that you see yourself as so completely separate from women that you can't even relate to their position - to the point where you feel you can't even comment on it? This suggests to me that you overly identify with being a man, and not so much a person. You're very protective of your position and your words suggest to me that you see women as the opposition

Feminism is about equal rights. For quite some time women didn't have equal rights. Things in this country and others have changed quite a bit, but there's still so much to be done before things change to the point where we can say there's no longer a problem. No different from other battles for equality. In other parts of the world things haven't changed even a little bit, and women are treated like cattle. Because things are so much better here, no doubt many men are more than a little confused and irritated by the fact that the fight continues, but the fight is not just for American women, or European women - it's for women

You suggest that women should have rephrased their objections to their station in life to be more neutral? Even when we consider that life, though not often or even usually kind to men still granted them more rights, freedom, privileges and perks that it did women? Why would women fight for men to have the things they already have?

2. Second, if feminism is about woman’s rights on the grounds of political, social and economic equality to men. What rights do I have that is the result of not an oligarchy, not a theocracy, and not a corrupt political movement, but a patriarchy, that you do not?

If you're going to argue that we're all oppressed, how do you explain that even among the oppressed men generally fare better than women?

Third, a thought experiment. If you were in my position, and during a simple act of humanity a man said “I don’t need a woman to hold the door open me.” Would a feminist such as yourself really resort to the judeo-christian stock-phrase “turn the other check”?

LesMis - what could I say here that you would believe and accept?

I would never let a door close on someone if it's just as easy for me to hold it open. When someone says something that makes me angry - in a situation like the one you're describing - I generally hold my tongue. It's not complicated or difficult

Knowing me - if I were to say anything at all it would be a simple and sarcastic: Be that as it may...

You know - years ago - before every human came with it's own cellphone, I was walking down the street and asked a gentleman for the time. He launched into a kind of mini rant about time, and what a useless human construct it is, that he didn't even own a watch and how he wasn't a slave to time or any of humanity's limiting expectations or demands...blah, blah, blah...

Seriously - in the amount of time he took to explain what a fool I was for caring what time it was he could have just politely said he didn't know - but instead he had to put me in my place while simultaneously attempting to elevate himself over me and everyone else

Some people are like that - even women

This is a lesson in feminism for you LesMis - you should see that woman as an angry and self important person

:-)

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

You know - years ago - before every human came with it's own cellphone, I was walking down the street and asked a gentleman for the time. He launched into a kind of mini rant about time, and what a useless human construct it is, that he didn't even own a watch and how he wasn't a slave to time or any of humanity's limiting expectations or demands...blah, blah, blah...

Seriously - in the amount of time he took to explain what a fool I was for caring what time it was he could have just politely said he didn't know - but instead he had to put me in my place while simultaneously attempting to elevate himself over me and everyone else

Who is to say he was not the victim? Maybe his wife/girl friend abused him by asking time every single minute and he came to dispise such concept?

Stop judging the man who didnt give you the time!

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Your first sentence is something that baffles me. What's to define - and why would it be up to men to define it in the first place? This idea...that you see yourself as so completely separate from women that you can't even relate to their position - to the point where you feel you can't even comment on it? This suggests to me that you overly identify with being a man, and not so much a person. You're very protective of your position and your words suggest to me that you see women as the opposition

Feminism is about equal rights. For quite some time women didn't have equal rights. Things in this country and others have changed quite a bit, but there's still so much to be done before things change to the point where we can say there's no longer a problem. No different from other battles for equality. In other parts of the world things haven't changed even a little bit, and women are treated like cattle. Because things are so much better here, no doubt many men are more than a little confused and irritated by the fact that the fight continues, but the fight is not just for American women, or European women - it's for women

You suggest that women should have rephrased their objections to their station in life to be more neutral? Even when we consider that life, though not often or even usually kind to men still granted them more rights, freedom, privileges and perks that it did women? Why would women fight for men to have the things they already have?

Feminism is equal rights for women as defined by only women? That does makes more sense, although it does still leave out half the population of the world. It is perhaps pertinent that all parties involved have a chance to outline such rights.

I do see myself as a different gender than women, but only because I am. But when I speak of feminism and feminists I speak about all who declare themselves so—men included. Feminism isn’t a just girl’s club from what I’ve noticed, and me speaking about feminism doesn’t automatically correlate to me speaking about about all women. I find such an inference a typical knee-jerk reaction of feminists, that I am somehow being sexist against women by challenging the ideology, and that I am an opponent of woman’s rights. That’s simply untrue. I am speaking about the people who support the ideology, which isn’t all women. Not all women are feminists, guilty by association. I’ll leave the gender divide and conquer to feminists and men’s rights advocates. I prefer to value people based on their individual merit.

If you're going to argue that we're all oppressed, how do you explain that even among the oppressed men generally fare better than women?

Fare better in what? In war? I’ll ask again: What rights do I have that you do not? Because I’ve completely missed out on my opportunity to cash in and I wouldn't mind doing so before I get too old.

LesMis - what could I say here that you would believe and accept?

I would never let a door close on someone if it's just as easy for me to hold it open. When someone says something that makes me angry - in a situation like the one you're describing - I generally hold my tongue. It's not complicated or difficult

Passively getting down on our knees and turning the other cheek so it can be slapped by those who oppress is a morality born of a culture of slaves. And yes it is not that difficult or complicated, because it is the path of least resistance. I would hope that some might rather stand up for themselves, seeing as there are no longer any chains keeping them from doing so.

Thank you for answering my questions.

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: woodwardjnr

3 of the 27 MPs are women.

Throwing stats at the thing isn't going to help. So 1/2 should be women? Fine. Isn't that sexist? Giving a woman preferential treatment?

How is equal numbers in leadership roles (equal gender representation) sexist (preferential treatment?). Do you define non-white men in roles of leadership as being there due to preferential treatment and not by merit?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

What a strange society we live in! How odd and uncomfortable our interactions can be when we're confused by the social politics of gender. How complicated.

I can think of a couple recent examples in my own life of such odd interactions, for example the gentleman I held the door open for just yesterday had a kind of surprised tone to his voice when he thanked me. Was it so unexpected?

Another thing that comes to mind... I'm a ~115lb woman and I carry my weight in groceries home from the store on the bus regularly. I have a much larger male neighbor I've talked to on the bus several times. One day I remember particularly, he said to me as we got off the bus, "Wow, you're really loaded down there!". I laughed, said something about buying food for 4 and wishing my kids didn't have to eat so much, and then we went our separate ways.

In my sweaty, hot, loaded-down-ness, I thought to myself how maybe I have feminism to thank for that. Not that I expected him to help me carry my groceries... I wondered if he thought I might take offense like the woman mentioned in the OP did, had he offered to help. It's happened. I don't doubt it. People have alot of issues with gender.

I have my own issues too, but I wouldn't let them make me react so rudely to a kind stranger or keep me from doing something nice/right when given the opportunity. Don't be jaded, LesMis. "Not everyone here is that [messed] up and cold." - Incubus, The Warmth

originally posted by: eMachine
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

What a strange society we live in! How odd and uncomfortable our interactions can be when we're confused by the social politics of gender. How complicated.

I can think of a couple recent examples in my own life of such odd interactions, for example the gentleman I held the door open for just yesterday had a kind of surprised tone to his voice when he thanked me. Was it so unexpected?

Another thing that comes to mind... I'm a ~115lb woman and I carry my weight in groceries home from the store on the bus regularly. I have a much larger male neighbor I've talked to on the bus several times. One day I remember particularly, he said to me as we got off the bus, "Wow, you're really loaded down there!". I laughed, said something about buying food for 4 and wishing my kids didn't have to eat so much, and then we went our separate ways.

In my sweaty, hot, loaded-down-ness, I thought to myself how maybe I have feminism to thank for that. Not that I expected him to help me carry my groceries... I wondered if he thought I might take offense like the woman mentioned in the OP did, had he offered to help. It's happened. I don't doubt it. People have alot of issues with gender.

I have my own issues too, but I wouldn't let them make me react so rudely to a kind stranger or keep me from doing something nice/right when given the opportunity. Don't be jaded, LesMis. "Not everyone here is that [messed] up and cold." - Incubus, The Warmth

Why do you assume feminism is to blame and the man simply didn't care about your situation. Also, why don't you buy yourself a wheeled grocery carrier, that's what I would do to ease the load (look after myself and my needs).

a reply to: QuietSpeech


She probably shook her head because, as usual, the message being relayed is not to be accepted and respected.

As for being courteous, then Lm should have followed through with his courtesy by continuing to hold the door and politely explaining that he is just a helpful and courteous guy and meant nothing derogatory by his actions ... so much for being courteous.