I am the Patriarchy

a reply to: BDBinc

True enough, similar to my thoughts. But I hold no ill feelings towards Les Misanthrope. And I'm glad he brought this particular topic up - I just thought I would say that, I went a bit philosophical on the O.P.

OK, I'm done with the clip on Farrell, and can now get to the door incident.

It can be confusing for men, because there are two continuing sets of manners in society.

The ladies in my family do expect things like car doors to be opened, or I must take of my hat off in restaurants, or let ladies enter first and so forth.

I used to hate that stuff as a gay male.
I always thought that I'm not even into women or patriarchy, so why must I do these things?

Strangely however, I now quite enjoy being the gentleman.
Maybe I've capitulated, or perhaps read so many conflicting things that I realize this has very little to do with equality or patriarchy.
It's just a performance of gender for that moment, and for me good manners have never gone unappreciated.
I'm usually rewarded with a "thank you", which is also a gender performance.
I've had women and men open doors for me too, and I've also always said "thank you".

It can be tricky - one wouldn't do that, for example, on a campus with gender studies.
(Although strangely, here it seemed more appreciated than elsewhere when I found myself doing it.)
Actually in some cases I scramble to be last, and let somebody else open the door first.

Once one does an action though one should follow through.
One cannot let a door snap closed halfway on somebody because of a remark.
That could injure somebody, and seems like rage.
If the remark hurt me, I could address it with the person after they are through the doorway safely.

originally posted by: halfoldman
Wow, I'm very shocked at this clip from Toronto.

I was a fan of Farrell's books, and to myself he just wanted men to think more consciously of themselves as gendered beings.

I actually thought one could stand for the equal rights of both women and men.

I only read one book of his, but I cannot recall it supporting rape whatsoever.
It said something to the likes of that teenage men can be confused on when to go too fast or too slow by mixed social messages.
However, I think that's miles away from supporting patriarchal rape.

Hey there 'Oldman' your comment cracked me up because I honestly thought you would have seen the comment section posts on the leading 'Feminist' websites. Hahaha glad to be proven wrong. If you ever want to read through some glaring examples of cognitive dissonance, or get the occasional laugh I highly suggest checking those out.

Jezebel and their 'groupthink' forum can be hilarious or enraging depending on the leading article on the news sites. Judging from the comments though I would not suggest making an account if you are masculine and male.

Cheers and thanks for the laugh.

-FBB

PS
I have never once been scolded by a feminist for holding a door, if it is real I am shocked. Usually they limit themselves to snide comments whispered under their breath or glares. The movement is incredibly harmless when real world issues are involved that require ACTUAL WORK, so basically you have nothing to worry about.

a reply to: FriedBabelBroccoli

Thanks for the info!
I'll check it out.

Gender issues in South Africa actually keep me very occupied.
Only rarely, or late at night do mediums like talk radio go into issues like opening doors and old school vs. modern manners.
Perhaps the reality of a very violent society makes those issues a bit trivial and beside the point.
However, there is a growing interest in masculinity studies, and the fact that men and boys are rarely examined as victims of violence, but usually exclusively as perpetrators.

The issues here like violence, rape, HIV/AIDS, the corrective rape of lesbians, our violent political history (essentially a historic civil war) and some of the statements by current "traditionalist" politicians are very different to what is presented here.

a reply to: darkbake

Thats good as how can you have" ill feelings" about any human being who shuts the door on woman and doesn't know( or denies ) society is patriarchal and also that 'woman' have a history of pain inflicted by males ?
For how would having ill feelings help a racist to understand his conditioned mind/thoughts may not be serving him well?

But its an old topic.
Is it changing respect (or good manners) into a gender reaction/ drama?
On the topic of kindness(not slamming the door on woman):
If you hold the door for anyone who needs it opened (because you should) why wait for appreciation, do you hold doors open for what you can get from it( ego ) or because some people need the door opened?

Is lm's door opening just a power trip for his ego and when he doesn't get the acknowledgment he wanted he spits the dummy?

originally posted by: BDBinc
Is lm's door opening just a power trip for his ego and when he doesn't get the acknowledgment he wanted he spits the dummy?

I know this wasn't a post to me, however do you have any actual literature with empirical evidence to support the "power trip" theory?

I see this constantly thrown around by gender studies folks and yet, try as I might I cannot get anyone who actually uses it to provide the text from which it came. Do you have any studies which clearly demonstrate such a notion?

-FBB

Ps
Please don't give me a lecture on this;
Feminist Epistemology and Philosophy of Science
plato.stanford.edu...

Various practitioners of feminist epistemology and philosophy of science argue that dominant knowledge practices disadvantage women by (1) excluding them from inquiry, (2) denying them epistemic authority, (3) denigrating their “feminine” cognitive styles and modes of knowledge, (4) producing theories of women that represent them as inferior, deviant, or significant only in the ways they serve male interests, (5) producing theories of social phenomena that render women's activities and interests, or gendered power relations, invisible, and (6) producing knowledge (science and technology) that is not useful for people in subordinate positions, or that reinforces gender and other social hierarchies. Feminist epistemologists trace these failures to flawed conceptions of knowledge, knowers, objectivity, and scientific methodology. They offer diverse accounts of how to overcome these failures. They also aim to (1) explain why the entry of women and feminist scholars into different academic disciplines, especially in biology and the social sciences, has generated new questions, theories, and methods, (2) show how gender and feminist values and perspectives have played a causal role in these transformations, (3) promote theories that aid egalitarian and liberation movements, and (4) defend these developments as cognitive, not just social, advances.

Among the movement there are those who deviate from objective pursuit and interpretation of the data in favor of promoting an agenda.

a reply to: theabsolutetruth

You see yourself as a victim whilst ignoring the victimizing of women generally and the unbalanced nature of a patriarchal society and the ails it has caused.

Until people like you actually learn the real meaning of words and stop being self centred, see the bigger picture, and have empathy towards the rest of humanity how do you think the world will move forward?

Perhaps you don't see the world in any real sense, are you blinkered to the plight of many women in the world? are you oblivious to the need for true feminism redressing the balance for equality and if so that is your problem and a fail on your part.

Just incase you missed that memo, society is not okay, it needs fixing.

Thankfully, there are many that see that redressing the balance of power in the world and recognising women as equal is imperative and essential to healing societies and these sensitive, insightful people are increasing, making the way for a better world.

Just remember you were born of woman.

Something I recall from primary school, about 50% of the boys in the class were very vocal about ''boys being superior to girls'', they made a big deal of letting their view known, daily. Once during a debate I said to them ''perhaps we shall see how you think of that statement when you all have daughters'', at least 4 of them now have daughters, funnily I didn't see many comments from them on how superior all the male offspring of the class members are to their daughters.

Treating females as inferior will always result in it coming right back at you, in ways you might not expect.

Denying the equality of women is denying your own heritage, genetics and that which brought you to life and nurtured you, womanhood is the very essence of life and nurturing that society has to realise and respect, for when it is, the macho wars will cease and love will flourish as it is meant to.

While you are nursing you ego after a woman who said something to you that you felt offended by (do you write about it on ATS when a man offends you?), perhaps you could check some stats and try to visualise the bigger picture.

Also, if you can't understand my post and the fact you need to realise it isn't all about you (stop being egocentric) and are looking for arguments, don't bother, as wasting my time on the ignorant is something I won't do.

My entire family is women. I was born and raised by women. To imply that I’d forget this is insulting. I don’t see any gender as more superior than the other. It is strictly your ideology that seeks to malign “people like me” into some demon-like entity based on no grounds but your own cultural biases. Who here is treating females as inferior but you and other feminists? I am speaking about feminism, and not any particular gender. Show me where I have denied the equality of women. You cannot, because I haven’t. I feel I am of sound enough mind to not condemn someone for no reason. I am speaking to you as an equal this moment. But if feminism and your supposed woman-hood is the cause of this “love” you’re giving me, the equality that is feminism, implying that I’m egocentric, playing the victim, oblivious, who treats women as inferior while denying them equality, just another man and therefor guilty, and just another instance of “people like me”, ignorant and indifferent to individual suffering, based on no actual evidence whatsoever, then I am witness to blatant dishonesty and feminist rhetoric. The same feminism in the video. Divide and conquer. Giving hypocrisy and irony a bad name.

I do understand your post. It’s fallacy laden.

a reply to: darkbake

Suffering isn’t limited to one gender. I am siding with neither of them and both.

If anything both genders segregate both genders and themselves. It is no one gender that is the evil and the other that is the good.

a reply to: BDBinc

Society is a patriarchy.

First you say you held the door open the door to another human being , but then that human being disappears and is objectified by you into a "woman" (who you claim calls you a tyrant and so you then slam the door on her) .
Poor bloody human being having a door shut on them just because of your conditioned mind.
You think the woman you shut in the door was a feminist because you imagined she called you a tyrant or was she a feminist just because she was a woman?


There is a history of suppression of the female by the male. The pain woman have suffered and the oppression needs to be understood by the male, not denied. You cannot see how you reduced and objectified this human being into a female (and yourself into a male) which then caused you to react and shut the door on her .
- See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

I don't think I ever said she called me a tyrant. If I called her a woman, it was because she was a woman. If you could read, she said she didn't need a man to hold the door for her, on which I obliged her wishes. This means I reduced and objectified her in a power trip? Where do you come up with this stuff?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

She said she did not need you to hold the door open, and so you shut her in the door.... and this is normal behaviour for you?

You turn something that should be an act of kindness into a misplaced story about gender " when I shut her in the door I felt that I was being reduced to my gender " what a victim story .

The same personality (self labeled as a tyrant) shuts another human being in the door feels he needs to justify it . His ego felt depleted he reduces both himself , and the human being he shut in the door, to genders.
His ego needs to not feel the loss from the reaction/experience , an enemy, in this case its "woman"(who are labeled feminists). He is now the victim in his story.

I'm really not impressed with where Feminism has been heading. I'm also not too impressed with the whole Men's Right's Activist thing.

I am all for equality. Granted, there are some differences between the sexes but I've never considered women to be inferior or incapable, and never will. I was brought up to respect women (and not because they were women), and the women in my family are all very good examples of just how intelligent, strong and badass women are.

Shouting down and getting physical with people that are attending a lecture (with no real clue what their actual beliefs are) is ridiculous. Imagine if the roles were reversed. Imagine a bunch of men shouting down and intimidating women, calling them f-ing scum and screaming they were all asking to be raped.

There are some very real issues that should be addressed, but this isn't the way to do it. Both men and women get some bad deals. Take out the gender and discuss it. Don't blame the other gender. I'm not going to be very open to your opinion if you start calling me a white male oppressor. Yes I agree with many of your points, but if you automatically assume I'm some creep with a penchant for raping women and wearing a white robe I'm going to think you're an idiot. Just like I think the MRA dudes are idiots when they make dumb claims (and they certainly do).

To me that's what real feminism is about, elevating women to the same status, without the hate and vitriol. Women should be payed the same (and I think that gap is getting closed), women should be respected in the workplace (and I have rarely seen any animosity because of gender). I think we have a ways to go here, but I think we are speeding in the right direction. I also think there needs to be more dialogue about some issues men face. Having a very hard time in family court, presumption of guilt with rape allegations, presumption of guilt with sexual harassment claims. Don't you think it far better to work together? There are a greater number of REASONABLE people of both genders that want ACTUAL equality and the radfems and MRAs are too busy trying to win pity points to be realistic and concede that yes, there are issues on both sides of the aisle.

-----------------

On the door thing. I always open or hold the door. I don't care who you are, that door is getting opened and held, even if it makes you uncomfortable and you break into a jog (sorry). I also put my napkin in my lap, pull out chairs if there are chairs (OK only for women), wait to eat until everyone is served, say Sir and Ma'am, say please and thank you, ask to be excused if I need to use the restroom, open the ladies door (save for the SUV that had a little malfunction and could only be unlocked from inside), pay for dinner (unless I've been yelled at not to, and it takes some yelling) and there are more. That's just being polite. YOU SHOULD BE POLITE! No amount of yelling patriarchy is going to get me to stop. I don't think you're incapable because you're a woman, I just want you to feel respected and know I think you're special. I'm pitching woo, you jerk!

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
The other day I had the fortunate chance to hold a door open for another human being. But as I did so, the human I opened the door for asserted that such common courtesy wasn’t necessary, that she “didn’t need a man to hold a door open” for her, and the unconscious act of this benign kindness was in some strange fantastical way an instance of tyranny. In apology for my oppressive act, I let the door go and it closed on her mid-stride, thereby allowing her to struggle with her shopping bags. I walked away in silence as she guffawed and shook her head in ironic indignation.

Does anyone 'need' anyone to hold a door open? You say you had the 'fortunate chance' as though it was a blessing. And then you had the 'fortunate chance' to turn yourself into a victim and then you could write a clever thread about how you punished a human for not acting how you wanted them to act.
You held a door open and then let it go which made her struggle.
I am so glad that you feel vindicated. And you even managed to turn it into a sexist debate.

As for you walking away in silence??? I doubt the mind (the voice in the head) has shut up about it since - still angry at her and all other women too.

One should never forget when reading your posts that misanthropy is the general hatred, distrust or disdain of the human species or human nature - any and all aspects will suffice. Some people are always on the look out for new reasons to hate.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
I don't think I ever said she called me a tyrant.

No - I didn't think she did call you a tyrant.
"The unconscious act of this benign kindness was in some strange fantastical way an instance of tyranny" - it was your fantasy.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Where do you come up with this stuff?

There will always be those who take their ideological beliefs to extreme. The woman you opened the door for is just someone who has taken their ideology to the extreme. Maybe she was having a bad day anyway, you'll never know.

To deny that most societies are patriarchal is to be wilfully blind. I only need to look at the Cabinet of my government to see a huge gender divide. 3 of the 27 MPs are women. www.bbc.co.uk...

That's hardly representative of the nation. Imagine the outcry from men if those figures were reversed.

a reply to: woodwardjnr

3 of the 27 MPs are women.

Throwing stats at the thing isn't going to help. So 1/2 should be women? Fine. Isn't that sexist? Giving a woman preferential treatment?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: darkbake
Suffering isn’t limited to one gender. I am siding with neither of them and both.
If anything both genders segregate both genders and themselves. It is no one gender that is the evil and the other that is the good.

If you are divided then everything gets divided. If you are conflicted then the world is full of conflict.
The one who has found harmony within finds harmony without.

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: woodwardjnr

3 of the 27 MPs are women.

Throwing stats at the thing isn't going to help. So 1/2 should be women? Fine. Isn't that sexist? Giving a woman preferential treatment?

I was just pointing out that we do live in patriarchal societies and hardly surprising some women arnt happy with that situation. Isn't it a bit sexist to only have 3 female MPs in a governments cabinet. As I said if those figures were reversed men would not be happy either, but, it wouldn't be the reverse because we live in a patriarchal society.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

I am the Patriarchy

(caution: language)

The other day I had the fortunate chance to hold a door open for another human being. But as I did so, the human I opened the door for asserted that such common courtesy wasn’t necessary, that she “didn’t need a man to hold a door open” for her, and the unconscious act of this benign kindness was in some strange fantastical way an instance of tyranny. In apology for my oppressive act, I let the door go and it closed on her mid-stride, thereby allowing her to struggle with her shopping bags. I walked away in silence as she guffawed and shook her head in ironic indignation.

What the hell ,femiNazis.

Nazism, by name, excludes me. Why? I don’t have a German bone in my body, and as such, I cannot be a Nazis. There’s no room for me in any Nazism theory, except that I am allowed to play the part of the oppressor in their fantasies, or that I should be a Nazis, so that I can, like them, promote one nationality at the expense of my own. So be it. If I am seen as the enemy before being in any way judged on my individual merit, I will gladly play that role for them. Such roles are required to perpetuate the irrationality and contradiction found in marginalizing an entire nationality based on specific nationality -centric notions.

Any movement "fight for a group of people rights " would become such disgusting (like nazis) if they got enough power.
Power corrupts.If you notice those countries with extreme inequality gender rights (muslims),their government supporting the inequality.In your country ,the government supporting another kind of inequality.(feminism)

Because feminism can running capitalism better ,most of profiteering products are targeted women.(Famous brand clothing/flowers/famous brand under wear/famous brand handbags/famous brand cosmetic...etc)

^Are all very cheap in production costs.

a reply to: woodwardjnr

Your argument is flawed.

Has it ever occurred to you that the number of men that have an interest in politics is perhaps far greater than the number of women? Therefore, they are more likely to pursue a career in politics compared to their female counterparts, which results in the male-to-female ratio you mentioned.

I find it funny that we can live in a supposed "patriarchal society" when far more funding, services and support are given towards the development/betterment of women compared to men.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
a reply to: woodwardjnr

Your argument is flawed.

Has it ever occurred to you that the number of men that have an interest in politics is perhaps far greater than the number of women? Therefore, they are more likely to pursue a career in politics compared to their female counterparts, which results in the male-to-female ratio you mentioned.

I find it funny that we can live in a supposed "patriarchal society" when far more funding, services and support are given towards the development/betterment of women compared to men.

Maybe it's because women aren't encouraged to go into politics as its viewed as a "job for the boys". Senior female British MPs have recently complained about the boisterous nature of parliamentary question time. This type of male dominated environment puts women off joining in. A prime example of a patriarchal society. www.bbc.co.uk...

The reason I chose politics, is for the very fact that it's meant to be representative of society.

I'm not exactly sure where you get the notion that we are not living in a patriarchy.