I am the Patriarchy

originally posted by: InTheLight
Why do you assume feminism is to blame and the man simply didn't care about your situation. Also, why don't you buy yourself a wheeled grocery carrier, that's what I would do to ease the load (look after myself and my needs).

I'm sure he didn't care about my situation and didn't feel any obligation to help, which is completely normal today. There would have been a very different dynamic in the same situation a couple generations ago. What happened? Feminism. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, I'm just saying as a society we're adapting faster than some of us can keep up with emotionally/philosophically. I thought that was fairly apparent all over the place with gender-related issues especially.

Thanks for the advice! It's more convenient for me to take a few bags with me to work and stop on the way home for groceries, rather than coming home to get a wheeled cart and then take another bus trip to the store. My interest in not wasting time outweighs my laziness, by just a tad.

It was not women who wanted or introduced feminism.
Please check this out:

In reality, feminism is a cruel hoax, telling women their natural biological instincts are "socially constructed" to oppress them. Feminism is elite social engineering designed to destroy gender identity by making women masculine and men feminine. Increasingly heterosexuals are conditioned to behave like homosexuals who generally don't marry and have children. Courtship and monogamy are being replaced by sexual promiscuity, prophesied in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. Rockefeller and Rothschild created feminism to poison male-female relations (divide and conquer.) Their twin objectives are depopulation and totalitarian world government. Why? These bankers create money out of nothing and think they are God. "Cruel Hoax" shows the connection between feminism, Communism and 9-11. It examines male-female relations and shows how we can take back our heterosexuality.

www.amazon.co.uk...

originally posted by: eMachine

originally posted by: InTheLight
Why do you assume feminism is to blame and the man simply didn't care about your situation. Also, why don't you buy yourself a wheeled grocery carrier, that's what I would do to ease the load (look after myself and my needs).

I'm sure he didn't care about my situation and didn't feel any obligation to help, which is completely normal today. There would have been a very different dynamic in the same situation a couple generations ago. What happened? Feminism. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, I'm just saying as a society we're adapting faster than some of us can keep up with emotionally/philosophically. I thought that was fairly apparent all over the place with gender-related issues especially.

Thanks for the advice! It's more convenient for me to take a few bags with me to work and stop on the way home for groceries, rather than coming home to get a wheeled cart and then take another bus trip to the store. My interest in not wasting time outweighs my laziness, by just a tad.

A few generations ago you would have been a stay at home wife and mother and had your own car to assist with your chores. What happened? Economic downturn forcing women to step up and take half the responsibility of bringing home the bacon, and the bacon, and doing more work at home thus causing lack of time issues.

a reply to: InTheLight

I know right! I don't know if either the economic downturn of the time or the political propaganda were actually what you would call organic, but the two combined definitely stirred the pot up!

It's been almost impossible for a family to get by with only one person working outside the home since then. Almost. A few generations ago, I would have been a stay-at-home wife. Indeed. Today, I have a stay-at-home husband and I bring home the bacon (literally and figuratively). Oh, how times have changed.

a reply to: eMachine

Well, that's my opinion on that particular matter, as well as we all have to try to work together - we are all we got.

Also, I forgot to mention they have shopping cart backpacks (online) which makes a bus-taking woman's life so much easier.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Whilst there might be some truth to that, it has to be pointed out that there are varying types of ''feminism''.

In my opinion, women and men are naturally able to do certain things, which is a good thing if understood properly and taken into consideration when constructing society's infrastructure.

For example, because there are jobs that women can do and do well in this created world of commercialism and the fact that women have rights, the right to work, vote etc, it should be natural for the natural flow of life to be accounted for.

Such as female career structuring that allows for being a woman, such as menstruation (yes it affects many women in many ways that men do not understand). Allowing for the fact that at some point women will normally desire to have children, this should be accounted for with at least a year off work, with various financial options during this period. Women with children should be accounted for in the structuring of working hours, such as fitting in with school hours and allowing time off if needed without any pressure.

Men in families should also have family life accounted for, such as paternity and time off when needed without pressure for looking after children and allowing for school hours.

Just because males have typically dominated the workforce and policy making since prehistory, and now women are expected to work, shouldn't mean making them work to the same tune as men.

Women shouldn't be punished for the labels and restrictions placed upon them by men in the first place, made to feel like needing to suppress any femininity to be able to exist in the workplace, similarly women feeling the need for looking or appearing sexually available and dressed for the pleasure of men (high heels etc) for workplace acceptance should also be discouraged. Nor should women be only the minions of men, wives and the property of husbands. It wasn't long ago that beating their wives was legal and only men had a say in matters of the home, the workplace and community. Obviously this compromised women considerably and was an abhorration of equal rights.

Women should have rights and those rights should be equal. Society has to evolve. The workplace has to evolve for the needs of women and families and in general, as it has taken over people's lives far too much.

Now as for various terms for ''feminism'', in addition to gender equality there should be equal rights in all aspects. There are places where women aren't allowed owning anything, laws discriminating against them, there have been women that were stoned to death because they were raped, places where marriage to 8 year old girls is legal, places where girls are systematically genitally mutilated, places where the crime rates against women are astonishing, where they did nothing but a dispute about dowries for example, got them set on fire and burned alive, just because they are women and without basic rights, places where female babies have been killed in their thousands just because they are female. In all of these cases, if these females had been born male in these places they would have had rights.

In the western world most countries have been paying women substantially less for doing the same jobs for the same hours as men. The statistics in the western world still show violent crimes against women statistically far higher than that for men.

All of these are just examples of a much bigger picture of discrimination against women and a lack of equality.

Feminism should be about equal rights and allowing for women being women at the same time, it isn't rocket science.

For those that haven't yet realised the importance of gender equality, instead seeing it as some sort of nazi agenda against men or those that have disagreed gender equality because it isn't male centric. Think about it, think about the society that is here, how it needs fixing. Look at people on trains, in restaurants, is it a family happy picture or is it more of a 'face stuck in social media phones etc' ignoring real interactions. Are people happy? Perhaps consideration for women and the family unit as basic constructs for society should be considered far more than they are now.

If those earlier in the thread comment negatively on this, I won't reply, so don't bother goading me, I am above it.

Unscrupulous men that were all for the taking have been the bane of my life, I have heard and been accused of all sorts in attempts at denial of my rights, and the rights to my own property from men, such as that they were part of certain patriarchal religious organisations that meant women having less rights, even being accused of being an alien therefore having no 'human rights'. I am a woman and I have rights, at least equal to men, probably more than.

My moral compass points in the right direction as do my ethics. The same cannot yet be said for humanity as a whole nor of the international governments making policies and decisions that affects all of humanity and the entire planet, in addition to the ability for humankind existing on this planet and the very nature of the ecosystem itself. Mankind has not convinced me of any true morality yet nor of any validity as Earth beings.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

I would say throughout history it was both brave women and men with power in government that helped to secure the existing state of affairs for women...there is still much to be done.

www.ournellie.com...

a reply to: LesMisanthropeLesMisanthrope

"Not all women are feminists, guilty by association. "




Why is the woman who you shut in the door "guilty by association " ...because she is a woman?

Did you think that she may have intuitively recognized that your opening of the door for her was not an act of kindness.
I also noted your initial declared state was "indifference" when closing the door on her was later disclosed to be a state of anger and aggression.

What imagined ideology of yours are you challenging, (following shutting a human being in the door),not your mother's "feminism"?
What is it you think all woman are guilty of by association, something your mother did?

War is hate in action, why do you want to go to war? Why call an act of hate " an opportunity to cash in before you get too old .Cashing in on ignorance means you are broke. When you value ideology more than humanity, when you help to divide humanity then you are partaking in hate- which I feel is an act against humanity .

a reply to: theabsolutetruth

I agree with you that equal rights for all people are necessary for a healthy society and a happy life. The education of and emancipation of women is key to this and evidential in any free society. And not allowing women an education or freedom of choice is likely the reason theocratic caste systems are still in the stone age. But, maybe we should protest them and not each other. Nowadays, you and I can fight and die together side-by-side on a battlefield.

Such as female career structuring that allows for being a woman, such as menstruation (yes it affects many women in many ways that men do not understand). Allowing for the fact that at some point women will normally desire to have children, this should be accounted for with at least a year off work, with various financial options during this period. Women with children should be accounted for in the structuring of working hours, such as fitting in with school hours and allowing time off if needed without any pressure.

In more developed countries, we get what's called "parental leave", where maternal and paternal parents get time off with financial options, not just women. According to Wikipedia, only four countries on earth don't offer this benefit. But "parental" in parental leave means both parents. Men also desire to have children and take care of their children, and often do. So I think it suffice to say that, for the sake of equal rights, men and women should both get those rights. Except for the menstruation thing—I already thought that was a given.

Unscrupulous men that were all for the taking have been the bane of my life, I have heard and been accused of all sorts in attempts at denial of my rights, and the rights to my own property from men, such as that they were part of certain patriarchal religious organisations that meant women having less rights, even being accused of being an alien therefore having no 'human rights'. I am a woman and I have rights, at least equal to men, probably more than.

My moral compass points in the right direction as do my ethics. The same cannot yet be said for humanity as a whole nor of the international governments making policies and decisions that affects all of humanity and the entire planet, in addition to the ability for humankind existing on this planet and the very nature of the ecosystem itself. Mankind has not convinced me of any true morality yet nor of any validity as Earth beings.

Aah the vicious vile of poison in words. It's wonderful to read. A misanthrope. But be careful when saying such about humanity, for we we never know who might be listening. They have tender hearts.

You have convinced me. From the sounds of it, you are trapped in a patriarchy. If you ever get the right to move, and I hope you do, you should go for it.

a reply to: eMachine

Another thing that comes to mind... I'm a ~115lb woman and I carry my weight in groceries home from the store on the bus regularly. I have a much larger male neighbor I've talked to on the bus several times. One day I remember particularly, he said to me as we got off the bus, "Wow, you're really loaded down there!". I laughed, said something about buying food for 4 and wishing my kids didn't have to eat so much, and then we went our separate ways.

In my sweaty, hot, loaded-down-ness, I thought to myself how maybe I have feminism to thank for that. Not that I expected him to help me carry my groceries... I wondered if he thought I might take offense like the woman mentioned in the OP did, had he offered to help. It's happened. I don't doubt it. People have alot of issues with gender.

Interesting question. Maybe he was fishing for you to ask him to help rather than to imply that you needed it. Perhaps its becoming a custom, that to be courteous is to not imply someone needs a hand. If I was your neighbour, I know what I would have done, but it's completely sexist in this day and age. When someone looks like they could use a hand...why not?

What is interesting, LM, is that there is a lot of speculation as to what others' may or may not be thinking or feeling and no real concrete proof of intention via conversation.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I am in the UK and know all about maternity and paternity leave, just the way the UK structures them isn't great, also companies don't want to pay it as it costs them more. I know this from personal experience of being harassed at work whilst pregnant, they wanted me to leave, I refused. Also allowing for things like menstruation, it isn't even accounted for. My own experience from doing upper management level and executive positions is that the actual physical fact of being a woman almost required a denial of actually being a woman at times, where it would have been counterintuitive to mention anything related to being female. Being two minutes late a few times due to over enthusiastic head teachers demanding to talk after the school run was taken very seriously by a certain head of department. Added to that the actual sexual harassment I have received from men on many occasions, in fact if I am honest in EVERY job so far over more than 20 years, some incidents would make your hair curl, and toes, and everything else, and were worse when in my 20's.

So whilst we are in a ''civilized'' nation, sometimes for women behind the scenes in the workplace it is far from civilized despite all the supposed laws and rules of protection. For some men it's often hard to see or even admit such goings on in the workplace.

As for the men claiming rights over me and my property, well I won't say too much on here but sometimes greed has overtaken any morality on their part and their claim of ''ownership'' of me and my property on some scant religious grounds, even when they weren't religious is just another example of men using physical domination and underhand tactics for getting things they want that aren't theirs. They were partly given such an impression by a misogynist parent, essentially they were given the message, ''she's our property as is all her things and you can share in it on our terms''.

Some men seem to be harbouring some deep seated sense of entitlement and are dejected when women don't find them as awesome as they think they are. To quote an ex boyfriend ''A lot of people think of me as arrogant, I like that, I am arrogant'' do you consider men as superior to women? ''yes, because they are, that's obvious'' all said with a self appreciatively smug grin followed by a ''don't you just love me for being so me'' type wallowing of ego, my response ''erm no'' / ''take a hike'', needless to say the relationship went rapidly downhill from then.

Whilst all men thankfully aren't as arrogant and self centred, many in my generation were raised by parents from families where misogyny was the accepted norm, my own included. Added to that the media treatment of women, objectified as sex objects and largely promoted as stupid, lipstick models and clothes horses rather than for intellect and ethics. I say that from the point of view of an intelligent, lipstick wearing woman, I am also attractive so it isn't a jealous gripe, just an observation. Just look at the Daily Mail for example, a large readership, yet 90% of it's content appears to be a critique of whichever female celeb they papped that day with comments on her weight, hair, clothes etc yet rarely a comment on how fat / bald/ ugly certain men are.

Society has a lot to learn about gender equality and finding the balance, recognition of the issues in the first place is essential.

originally posted by: InTheLight
What is interesting, LM, is that there is a lot of speculation as to what others' may or may not be thinking or feeling and no real concrete proof of intention via conversation.

BUMP!

a reply to: InTheLight

What is interesting, LM, is that there is a lot of speculation as to what others' may or may not be thinking or feeling and no real concrete proof of intention via conversation.

I agree! I have been called hateful, petty, disingenuous, irrational, just to name a few.

I have a feeling you're trying to imply something about me right now. You could just say if you wish.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Feminism is equal rights for women as defined by only women? That does makes more sense, although it does still leave out half the population of the world. It is perhaps pertinent that all parties involved have a chance to outline such rights.

Is that what I said? I wonder if you think your tactics are magically invisible? I ordinarily wouldn't suspect you were capable of magical thinking - so you must think nobody is paying attention to the things you say :-)

It isn't me that keeps harping on this - it's you LesMis. I'm the one who believes that feminism is something happily and readily embraced (as well as understood) by many men. Maybe even most men. If you read what I'm actually saying and then also reply to what I said instead of what you wish I'd said - we might begin to have that conversation you keep promising us

...me speaking about feminism doesn’t automatically correlate to me speaking about about all women. I find such an inference a typical knee-jerk reaction of feminists, that I am somehow being sexist against women by challenging the ideology, and that I am an opponent of woman’s rights. That’s simply untrue.

But, it is absolutely true. Your entire OP is based on it. You're absolutely focusing on all feminists, and only allow for the rights of women when they aren't acting all feminist-y. How is it you're in such a position to begin with - to look on women favorably so long as they're not feminists - all feminists of course being lumped into one group - that you you don't like or respect? It's time you start being diplomatic and balanced at the beginning of your threads - not towards the end where it begins to look as if you might be disingenuous - and on the ropes :-)

I prefer to value people based on their individual merit.

See what I mean? So, what is your real gripe then? That some women don't do feminism right?

How is that even a thread? :-)

Passively getting down on our knees and turning the other cheek so it can be slapped by those who oppress is a morality born of a culture of slaves.

I imagine you pacing on a fine horse - your face is painted blue... Oh! Bravo LesMis!

But, seriously - what?

Edit to re-say something better: If you want a better reply, then reread my last post and reply to it directly. I'm not much up for sparring - as I suggested earlier. A real conversation is what I'm after

:-)

a reply to: luciddream

Stop judging the man who didnt give you the time!

Sorry so late - not really paying attention as much as I should

You know - you're right. I'm sure he has his reasons

Shame on me

:-)

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I’ll put this at the top in case you may have conveniently missed it for the third time. What rights do I have that you do not? Surely if our rights are unequal, you know what rights those are.

“Feminism is equal rights for women as defined by only women? That does makes more sense, although it does still leave out half the population of the world. It is perhaps pertinent that all parties involved have a chance to outline such rights.”

Is that what I said? I wonder if you think your tactics are magically invisible? I ordinarily wouldn't suspect you were capable of magical thinking - so you must think nobody is paying attention to the things you say :-)

It isn't me that keeps harping on this - it's you LesMis. I'm the one who believes that feminism is something happily and readily embraced (as well as understood) by many men. Maybe even most men. If you read what I'm actually saying and then also reply to what I said instead of what you wish I'd said - we might begin to have that conversation you keep promising us

I’m fairly certain I read properly. Here is what you said and what I was replying to:

“Your first sentence is something that baffles me. What's to define - and why would it be up to men to define it in the first place? This idea...that you see yourself as so completely separate from women that you can't even relate to their position - to the point where you feel you can't even comment on it? This suggests to me that you overly identify with being a man, and not so much a person. You're very protective of your position and your words suggest to me that you see women as the opposition”

I actually wished you didn’t say it. My magical thinking had an entirely different view up until now. Why would it be up to men to define equal rights? From what I know, 50% of the world are men. If, according to feminism, only women are allowed to define ideologies concerned with equal rights, then the feminism isn’t concerned with equal rights. All parties should be involved, correct? Or are only feminists allowed to dictate what is and isn’t considered equal rights? It seems that both genders should be involved.

“This suggests to me that you overly identify with being a man, and not so much a person.”

And let it be known—men and women are persons regardless of gender. Men and women identify as persons by default. The idea that I should rid myself of my manhood for the sake of relating to women, and hence, “persons”, is an insidious idea. Maybe you identify too much as a woman, and not so much a person—sorry, I am unable to say that with a straight face. It’s a complete mockery of nature to say that I shouldn’t identify with myself or my gender. Yes; I am a man. I’m actually quite fine with that. I hope you don't see me as a lesser than, Spira. I couldn't bear it.

“You're very protective of your position and your words suggest to me that you see women as the opposition”

If my words suggest I am in opposition to women, perhaps you can clarify what I think women are in opposition to? I don’t think I need to remind you that a woman gave birth to me. To clarify once again, I see feminists as opposition, because they see men—an entire gender—in opposition to equal rights for all individuals. They oppose me, I oppose them. If I’m to be judged based only on gender, as if I’m guilty of a crime I’ve never committed, and based on insufficient reason, you damn rights I will oppose it. If there are feminists who value my individuality, and my manhood, and my rights, then yes, I’ve generalized them, but only because they subscribe to the same ideology, not because they were born a certain way. If feminists are going to stand by and let this discrimination happen, even going so far as to blame the victim so as to avoid criticism of their ideology, then yes they’re just as guilty.

“
...me speaking about feminism doesn’t automatically correlate to me speaking about about all women. I find such an inference a typical knee-jerk reaction of feminists, that I am somehow being sexist against women by challenging the ideology, and that I am an opponent of woman’s rights. That’s simply untrue.”

But, it is absolutely true. Your entire OP is based on it. You're absolutely focusing on all feminists, and only allow for the rights of women when they aren't acting all feminist-y. How is it you're in such a position to begin with - to look on women favorably so long as they're not feminists - all feminists of course being lumped into one group - that you you don't like or respect? It's time you start being diplomatic and balanced at the beginning of your threads - not towards the end where it begins to look as if you might be disingenuous - and on the ropes :-)

I am focused on all feminists—I cannot deny that. Not all feminists are women. And neither can one feminist speak for all women—nor should they in my opinion. No one ideology can dictate over all individuals what equal rights are. If there are feminists who are opposed to the demonization of men, where are they? I assume they are marginalized by other feminists.

See what I mean? So, what is your real gripe then? That some women don't do feminism right?

How is that even a thread? :-)

I think I expressed this numerous times. My real gripe is being labelled as guilty and enemy for the way I was born, which for people claiming feminism is about equal rights, should be something of a top priority, rather than a joke.

It's time you start being diplomatic and balanced at the beginning of your threads - not towards the end where it begins to look as if you might be disingenuous - and on the ropes :-)

The blows just keep getting lower and lower, don't they? Luckily I can take it like a man, right?

Anyways. Here's some questions for you.

1. What rights do I have that you do not?

2. If equal rights are met, assuming that they already aren't, will feminism disappear?

3. If in some distant time the scales were reversed, and men's rights have fallen below equal, would you become a masculinist?

4. Who defines when equal rights are equal?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope
Wow. So much for the conversation I was looking for :-)

That was a pretty good rant LesMis - and revealing too. But like I said - several times now - not in the mood for sparring. Gonna just let most of that go - which means you actually get the last word. I hope you feel comfortable with where you left all this

I’ll put this at the top in case you may have conveniently missed it for the third time. What rights do I have that you do not?

Funny - the answer to this question is hidden in plain sight somewhere in that post I wrote so cheerfully - a few short days ago. Too bad you couldn't just read that earlier post thoroughly and reply - in kind

But, like my dear old dad (a first rate feminist, by the way) always used to say: I never chew my cabbage twice

P.S. LesMis - you owe me a few answers too. Guess we both leave empty handed. But not for lack of trying

:-)

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Wow. So much for the conversation I was looking for :-)

That was a pretty good rant LesMis - and revealing too. But like I said - several times now - not in the mood for sparring. Gonna just let most of that go - which means you actually get the last word. I hope you feel comfortable with where you left all this

If the conversation you were looking for involves me agreeing with you while you attempt to insult me, I suppose we can end it here. Very revealing.

Cheers

Apparently, others share the same concerns. This presentation is more eloquent and well thought out than I could have done however, but the points seem the same: