Breaking: Bundy family unearths BLM mass cattle grave

a reply to: TKDRL

Yep.
And the pics that I have seen show more than one cow.
I smell some stink in that post...

a reply to: butcherguy

That other picture with the many cows, shows the little backhoe fully extended, and not coming anywhere near reaching the bottom of the hole.
Photo

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Correct. As far he has told them it was homesteaded. He did say that again in his radio interview last week, that's when I got really stirred up too thinking why kick him off land he owns. Now if those documents have been produced, that is beyond my inside knowledge until I get a chance to buy her some coffee and talk. I have to assume he has something in order to make a claim that big publicly though, and to mention it not once, but a few times in many diverse places. (I know it makes an ass out of me but thats pretty big)

originally posted by: Mamatus
I do not and did not support Bundy. IMO he is still a deadbeat. However the BLMS Behavior was/is reprehensible.

Killing and animal and not using the meat is a crime for a hunter. IMO BLM should be held accountable. Although if they deduct the value of the cattle from his million dollar bill then perhaps it is "fair". Unless of course you are a cow then, not so much.

Dear BLM You are jackasses of the tenth order.

I have stated this on other threads and I will do it on this one again so people do not fall into government lies. There has not been any document produced anywhere showing evidence Bundy owes a million dollars ....period!! Lets get the facts straight, HE DOES NOT OWE TAXES, he owes a grazing fee that he refuses to pay to the BLM because they do not manage the land. He has repeatedly offered to pay the grazing fees to the county and they refuse to accept it. Estimates are Bundy actually owes $200,000 for grazing fees, however, that amount has not been substantiated yet either. Now the BLM has killed over 40 of Bundy's cattle at a cost of $1,500 each minimum, the BLM needs to take at least $60,000 off the actual bill and then place a lien on Bundy's property, they need to leave the militant BLM out of it and use common sense. The BLM is morally unjust and at best corrupt in this matter, they are no longer a steward of the lands we the people own, they are a paramilitary organization. I say the federal government needs to let the states manage the land for US citizens for a fee, at least then local people can control the land instead of a federal government that doesn't know how to herd cattle....but they sure know how to shoot them.

originally posted by: nugget1
I thought the whole point of the swat-style raid was to confiscate the cattle, and SELL them, using the money gendered to deduct from what Bundy supposedly owed on back taxes.
Slaughtering the cattle puts everything on an entirely different page; one I hope all Americans are reading.

Only time will tell just how close Reid is to the top echelons of corruption. I will be watching who sides with Reid VERY closely.

The court order signed by the judge only authorized the BLM to seize and impound the cattle, it said nothing about selling them and it sure didn't state they could kill them.

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
a reply to: Peekingsquatch

I hear what you're saying..and I hear what is being said on his behalf. I'm also reading court transcripts and source documents both sides refer to for the media, to see what they REALLY say...and Bundy isn't making that claim for owning direct rights to the land outside the court of public opinion. Near as I can tell, his mumblings about Homestead exception were thrown out summarily and quite some time back. Since then, he's been shotgunning causes, with those being important points for each, but in his approach? Whatever sticks...and that is where a man fighting on principle, isn't about principle anymore. Winning at any cost is what the people he's fighting do....and aside from the argument regarding becoming what we fight? You can't out-scum the scum of the U.S.G....tho he's trying hard.

First tho.. WHICH land is supposedly his? To read the court transcripts and compare to statements? You'd think the man believes he owns the whole Virgin River Valley. Umm.... I think not.

In its complaint, the United States alleges that, not only has Bundy failed to comply with the court’s orders that he remove his cattle from the Bunkerville Allotment and pay the financial penalties, but that Bundy’s cattle have moved beyond the boundaries of the Bunkerville Allotment and are now trespassing on a broad swath of additional federal land (the “New Trespass Lands”), including public lands within the Gold Butte area that are administered by the BLM, and National Park System land within the Overton Arm and Gold Butte areas of the Lake Mead National Recreation Area. The United States seeks an order enjoining Bundy’s unauthorized grazing on the New Trespass Lands.

Check the BLM maps for action areas I linked above to see what these areas are and, as it mentioned, Gold Butte isn't even all BLM land. He's violating more than one line of property which is not his. More important tho...his actual claim.

Bundy principally opposes the United States’ motion for summary judgment on the ground that this court lacks jurisdiction because the United States does not own the public lands in question. As this court previously ruled in United States v. Bundy, Case No. CV-S- 98-531-JBR (RJJ) (D. Nev. Nov. 4, 1998), “the public lands in Nevada are the property of the United States because the United States has held title to those public lands since 1848, when Mexico ceded the land to the United States.” CV-S-98-531 at 8 (citing United States v. Gardner, 107 F.3d 1314, 1318 (9th Cir. 1997)). Moreover, Bundy is incorrect in claiming that the Disclaimer Clause of the Nevada Constitution carries no legal force, see Gardner, 107 F.3d at 1320; that the Property Clause of the United States Constitution applies only to federal lands outside the borders of states, see id. at 1320; that the United States‘ exercise of ownership over federal lands violates the Equal Footing Doctrine, see id. at 1319; that the United States is basing its authority to sanction Bundy for his unauthorized use of federal lands on the Endangered Species Act as opposed to trespass, see Compl. at ¶¶ 1,3, 26-39; and that Nevada’s “Open Range” statute excuses Bundy’s trespass. See e.g., Gardner, 107 F.3d at 1320 (under Supremacy Clause state statute in conflict with federal law requiring permit to graze would be trumped).

That's the thrust of his point and fight as it's been made in any official sense, where it matters to make it.

Nor is there a legitimate dispute that Bundy has grazed his cattle on the New Trespass Lands without federal authorization. The United States has submitted Bundy’s deposition excerpts indicating that Bundy has grazed livestock on the New Trespass Lands and further evidence of the trespass of Bundy’s cattle in those areas. Notwithstanding Bundy’s contentions that the observed cattle bearing his brand may not in fact be his own, such a denial does not controvert Nevada law regarding prima facie evidence of ownership of branded cattle. In sum, in this most recent effort to oppose the United States’ legal process, Bundy has produced no valid law or specific facts raising a genuine issue of face regarding federal ownership or management of public lands in Nevada, or that his cattle have not trespassed on the New Trespass Lands.

US vs. Bundy - District Court of Nevada / July 2013

That's as source as it gets, in being his own case and one of the major legal defeats, across the board, which led to the scheduled removal of his cattle. I could even see people getting mad if they surprised him...but they gave notice on the Federal Register, which is as public as ad space in Times Square. Bundy had many chances to fight..and he lost on merit, every time he did. Now he's choosing to play on passions to build his own "People's Resistance" or something... I'll fight for principle. I'll NEVER fight for a man. This man seems wrong, IMO.

If you read the entire case that passed judgment last October, you will see the US Gov. had three attorneys assigned to the case, unfortunately Bundy represented himself. I am not a legal scholar but common sense would tell me that less than 1% of people that represent themselves in federal court actually win. I am sure the US attorneys were salivating over victory before they stepped into the court room.

I came back to share something else.

Reading what they are saying is critically important. I didn't realize I've had this for days now, since I just collected hundreds of source documents from all directions on this case, last week. I'm still getting through them all. Public notice came in different places on this, and The Federal Register/Local Mesquite paper was March 26/27 or so when they go it. This is from March 19...and it's a doozy for the details.

This is notice that any UNAUTHORIZED livestock grazing upon public lands and/or other federal lands administered by the Bureau of Land Management or the National Park Service is a violation of 43 CFR § 4140.1(b)(1)(i) and/or of 16 CFR § 2.60(a) and (b) and may be impounded.

The BLM may impound UNAUTHORIZED livestock without further notice anytime within the twelve (12) month period that begins five (5) days after the publication and posting of this notice within the local area (43 CFR § 4150.4-1(a) and (b) and 43 CFR § 4150.4-2). The NPS may impound UNAUTHORIZED livestock without further notice (36 CFR § 2.60(c)).

(Emphasis Mine)

The areas affected by this notice are comprised of the public lands administered by the Bureau of Land Management and Park lands administered by the National Park Service within the Gold Butte area, including the following allotments or areas.

 Bunkerville Allotment
 Mesquite Community Allotment
 Toquop Sheep Allotment
 Hen Springs Allotment
 Billy Goat Peak Allotment
 Gold Butte Allotment
 Lower Mormon Mesa Allotment
 Upper Mormon Mesa
 Flat Top Mesa
 Virgin River Bottom
 Lime Spring
 Azure Ridge
 Lake Mead National Recreation Area (Lake Mead NRA)

Source: BLM Public Notice / March 19 2014

Map of Area Denoting Property Lines, Type, and Grazing Borders

Both of the above link to PDF's on the BLM.gov website. It's public domain so I posted a bit more of the notice that I might normally, for those who don't get PDF's easily. Also....I changed all the code references to links so folks could read exactly which laws each element is being done under.

The Feds had to give warning this time. It was required by law. They gave it. They also invoked a 12 month window to take whatever action they deem fit to take. So, they don't have to give any warning again, at any future point inside those 12 months. I'm thinking they'll be back and possibly in their own time, when everyone's settled down and almost forgotten about it.

a reply to: butcherguy

I take it you didn't actually watch the fox news piece on this or what?

I smell some stink in your post if you didn't even watch the video to know that was exactly what I was quoting!

a reply to: Wrabbit2000
Great....I think you are absolutely right. They can make up their own rules as they go along. Hey, murder a few cows is fine as long as they have something on paper, right? Who cares if the Bundy's have been there long before the insane law was in place. Once upon a time the Red Indians could be chased away and land confiscated, it can certainly be done again (and better this time).

I must applaud the authorities for their compassion for the land, grass, desert tortoises and cows. And oh, how they care about the tax dollars too. Boy, don't you just love it when they spend much more in this fiasco. Meanwhile, these people who try to justify BLM's action must be given a pat in the back....maybe a star courtesy of the BsLM.

a reply to: Kurius

guess what, it's their cows to basically do whatever they want with. Those cows are abandoned property - their owner got a notice to get them and take them to their owners home, and their owner instead abandoned them.

As for proof of the allegations, I have yet to see any proof.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Boy, I totally agree. Wonderful. While we are at it, let's draft up a new law. Anyone parking, I mean abandoning their cars on the streets, public land, etc, watch out...we shall reserve the right to impound them, shall we? Let's not stop there. How about children playing on public land, huh? Those nuisance critters are using the oxygen on Federal land without permission. Round them all up and send their parents a notice to claim them or else...

By the way, what exactly again are we doing? Killing cows to protect ...grass? It must be special grass. But what the heck...I'm all for the protection of grass. Where do I sign?

a reply to: Kurius

I'm not sure I get what you mean. Parking and abandoning a vehicle on public land is already the way to see it impounded at rates which quickly make older cars more expensive to get out than to replace. That's national, although some cities make a real part of their budget from it too.

As far as the dead cows... what do they expect, at this point? A judge in a court has ordered these animals be removed. The agents will end up removing them. Aerial hunting to control herds is already done in the lower 48 and Alaska. It picks up some really nasty press occasionally, but it's also a standard way of doing this at times. With confrontation and possible injury and death coming to officers and citizens alike? Aerial removal may well be what they do next.

Unless another court says stop...as I understand it..the order to get this done is what stands with a 12 month window to do it in.

(I'd watch local airports for more helicopters than normal getting parked and lined up, personally...then again.. this is Nevada. A giant military base in some ways.. who knows)

The BLM are only indirectly to blame for this, as they hired ranchers, apparently Bundy's neighbours, to round up the cattle, seems they don't know what they're doing and I imagine a BLM statement to be released shortly along those lines. Doesn't excuse them of course, just saying.

As for the cows being buried, every cattle farm I know of digs a big hole and buries them, the Bundy's will have one too, I just hope they're not making it up and are photographing their own pit.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Well, there must have been lots of stationery cars...especially those driven by the so-called militia at the ranch. Shouldn't we have impounded them as well? Bury them next to the cows if the owners wouldn't claim them. Let's not wait ...many would just forget them and get new cars anyway. Just write another law to cover ourselves. It is fun taking others' properties and trash them, isn't it?

It's always great to be at the side writing the law, don't you think especially for the purpose of land grabbing...I mean "public interest", huh? Never mind the tax dollars wasted in implementing them and "possible injury and death coming to officers and citizens alike". Let's not worry those tax-paying idiots ending up footing the bills. They will defend us incessantly however stupid the laws can be. They are, after all, ingrained with the notion "All Laws are meant to be obeyed no matter how insanely unjust they are". LOL. We need to show 'em who's BOSS and dance merrily around their ancestral graves.

a reply to: Kurius

I can understand some people being very frustrated at this, and I don't care for some of the laws myself. At all. What allows so much open land to default as Federal, for instance. There is just something wrong there.

However, the BLM guy who works out of a Nevada office, following an order decided for lawyers by a Judge is hardly the one to be taking it out on. We have issues here..but those issues aren't ones that can be solved in Nevada. They're issues in Washington and deal with 500+ people in elected office who really need swapped with folks who don't have years of that sort of experience.

We have people in Congress right now who were elected before Vietnam even started. John Conyers came into his first winning Congressional race in 1964. He's hardly unique. It isn't men SIMILAR to those who created this whole thing, but the same literal individuals. BLM actually does a lot of good in most of their work. Even ranchers ought to see the need for a fair part of the basic work, when it isn't related to them anyway.

To think, if not for the coverage of the event, those might have been the graves of those who dare stand up to the almighty fed. I guess they probably think we should be thankful it was just cows. I honestly wonder how many more times this has to happen before people wake up, you see the comments on all the main stream news site and everyone acting like not paying taxes justifies the government to do whatever the hell they want to you. I wonder if that's what the British were saying about the colonists way back when.

a reply to: SenorPuttPutt

Ghandi stood up to the British government's tax on salt (and won). In the ranchers' case, we practically see a "tax on grass" and nobody recognizes it for what it is. Little do people who support this silly fees know this, but they, as consumers, are the ones ending up paying for it. Don't even think about the money squandered trying to enforce this grass tax.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Nobody is disputing that those government officers are a bunch of moronic robots. But what would it make us to follow their orders (written or otherwise) to a T? Never blame the ranchers for trying to make a living unless you are happy for them to be freeloaders collecting welfare instead. Life is hard enough as ranchers without official thugs coming after them.

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: butcherguy

I take it you didn't actually watch the fox news piece on this or what?

I smell some stink in your post if you didn't even watch the video to know that was exactly what I was quoting!

Did you post a link to the video?

I don't watch Fox or any other MSM news. Nor do I trust any of them.

I can post a video of Obama telling us all that you may keep your health insurance plan if you like it...it was all over the MSM.

a reply to: AlphaHawk

This is what I have been thinking this whole time ya know...

1) The Bundy's are the one's who "found" it

2) ALL information about it comes from the Bundy family

3) No one has the least bit of evidence whatsoever that the BLM were the one's who killed these cows

4) Until there is proof - ie: photographic or video evidence of BLM employees killing Bundy's cattle and throwing them in pits - then we must give the BLM employee's just as much benefit of the doubt as we have to give Bundy... innocent until proven guilty.

This means all we know is there is a pit with a cow in it that was shown on fox news... we don't have any evidence whatsoever against anyone...