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originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: Kurius
If you leave your diamond ring in a park, and someone finds that ring and says hey, come pick it up... and you refuse to pick it up... so they call you again and say hey! come pick up your ring, its yours we don't want it... and you again refuse to go and get it...
originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
a reply to: Phoenix
I think most of what we disagree on is perceptions and interpretations. I don't recognize any 19th century claim to land because one private citizen says so. I'd say he could litigate it, but he already has. Starting in the 90's to present, it hasn't been one court but multiple cases ruled on. He's lost them all.
As I see it though, Bundy is a citizen of the State of Nevada and the United States. He can do one of 3 things when law isn't to his liking. He can fight it (see above...done it and lost). He can change it (That's the one thing he hasn't tried, which I've seen..I could be wrong) or he can break them. He chose the 3rd, and in my opinion, chose poorly. Opinions vary.
Wrabbit2000, yup you've pretty much described differences in thought and interpretation. Yours based on rule of law as it were dealing specifically with grazing rights, mine a bit more idealistic and far ranging in scope.
I do not believe the BLM has a law enforcement mandate as part of its duties. The BLM should have deferred to local law enforcement if actual force was required to carry out its permitted duties via the court order.
BLM Rangers are uniformed officers who provide a regular and recurring presence over vast areas of public lands. They are responsible for conducting high visibility patrols; conducting public contacts; enforcing federal laws and regulations; assisting local county or city police departments, other federal and state land management agencies, and BLM Special Agents investigating illegal activity on public lands; and generally providing for the safety of BLM employees and public land users.
BLM Rangers regularly patrol public lands by four-wheel drive vehicle, all-terrain vehicle, motorcycle, aircraft, snowmobile, jet ski, boat, horse, and even the oldest patrol method—on foot. The job of a Ranger varies considerably depending on location. In the southwestern desert areas, Rangers spend a great deal of time dealing with large numbers of recreational users and off-highway vehicle issues, as well as a variety of resource theft and vandalism incidents; Rangers along the southern border may encounter illegal aliens and smuggling while their counterparts in Alaska travel long distances by aircraft and snow machine to patrol remote areas of public lands; and, Rangers in urban areas may encounter crimes related to alcohol, hazardous materials and other dumping, wildland fire and arson, and many other trespass concerns.l
I don't think much doubt exists that the BLM well exceeded the gist of the court order which allowed cattle seizure only, not sale, not killing, not tearing up water tanks, lines or infrastructure. It was to the courts to decide the next step after round-up not BLM.
You say in a way Bundy had no rights due a court order, I say the BLM not only disregarded his and all Americans rights but from the get go fully intended to do just that.
That it is the Bundy situation bringing forth an underlying problem between the people of this country and its federal government is paramount which negates whether or not Bundy is right or wrong on his view of grazing rights.
This is exactly what we are trying to highlight to you.....some of us observe you are too fixated by details that you tend lose sight of the bigger picture as many who tend to side with BsLM do.
Just because the BsLM/government can type the law and hit Ctrl-P, it doesn't mean they have the right to steal (essentially that's what it is if done by ordinary folks)...
Who is a particular set of law written for? Is it truly for the people or just "masked" to be so?
Since you are good at research, please help find out: how much BsLM spent getting thugs to the Bundy's property, intimidating the family and stealing their cattle. Some say $3million, but BsLM has declined to make this public.
originally posted by: Phoenix
a reply to: OpinionatedB
Early on I would have discounted the Bundy's grazing issue as between him and the courts. When the "free speech" zones went up along with the tazing and knocking down of protesters became news that changed the entire situation as far as I and I think I can say hundreds of thousands of others opinions. The day of the tazing it is clear on video that the protesters were asking the right question as it turns out their fears were later proved true - their issue was BLM over stepping bounds of the existing court order - they got thuggery for asking a valid question.
The grazing issue started the problem for sure but the BLM's subsequent actions turned it into something entirely different where the grazing is but a small issue.
It's not an economic issue nor for me nor is it really about grazing rights - it's about a very heavy handed government having no qualm violating constitutional rights not only at the Bundy ranch but all across this nation.
Free speech in Chicago The challenge of the NATO, G-8 summits
At a background briefing Thursday, city officials assured us they will meet with protest groups to decide where to put "free speech" zones around McCormick Place.
Two wrongs never make a right and all that. In order to win any battle the moral high ground must be taken. Which means we have to call out the wrong, wherever it happens to be seen.
originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
Given that? Am I debating individuals or am I debating a group? I'll change my approach dramatically if it's the latter. I'm assuming we're just having a discussion here among individuals.
When property is left on public lands, collecting the abandoned property isn't stealing, it's doing the job they're paid to do in the case of the Bureau of Land Management. Managing those lands and what's on them is their job, and it's been that way for more decades than this dispute has been running.
Gold Butte, which covers roughly 350,000 acres south of Interstate 15 near the Arizona border, was initially designated as an area of critical environmental concern (ACEC) by the BLM in 1998 as part of a land management plan for the Las Vegas area.
Connection drawn between cattle roundup and BLM report
originally posted by: Kurius
a reply to: Montana
Let's hope you will never get into such predicament of fighting in court against big bullies (over and over again) over an issue you feel passionately right about (as the Bundy's do)...On second thought, let's hope you will face one soon and understand what that entails.
It is easier said than done, believe me. You "work the way this country was DESIGNED to work" while they are exempted from the same. It's like playing chess with someone who says only his pawns can attack your pieces any way they want to because he makes the rules....and you say "oh, ok you can continue that but I will tell my mom you cheated".