Inmates strike in Alabama, declare prison is “running a slave empire”

originally posted by: Bassago
a reply to: jaffo

There is a reason we spend three years in law school studying the history and development of things like contract law, property law, constitutional law, etc.

Then as a lawyer and someone who has studied constitutional law I would ask you, do you not see anything inherently wrong about farming out prison labor to private corporations for profit?

Also saying that people come to you willingly is a bit disingenuous. Someone who is starving to death might show up at your house begging for food as well. Doesn't really mean they had any other choice when you have all the food.

Sure I have issues with it. But the system not being perfect does not mean that it all has to be thrown out. What else would you have them do? Nothing? As to it being disingenuous, no it is not. It is not my fault that you need an attorney because you were driving drunk or selling drugs or broke into a house or got in a fight or whatever. And like I said, you are COMPLETELY FREE to represent yourself in court. Whining because you will get your tail kicked if you do so is not my fault and not my problem. Want to do well in court? Take three years, borrow your rear off, go to law school, take and pass the Bar Exam. It's just that easy! I mean really, would a doctor be extorting you because you cut yourself while trimming the trees in your yard and you were going to bleed to death without his help? Of course not. But people hate lawyers so they take every shot at us that they can. Because after all, it is completely my fault that you screwed up and need a lawyer. I worked hard to get to where I am and I work VERY hard for ALL of my clients, be they criminal, family law, personal injury, or whatever. Because it's my job to do so. No one is extorted to hire me or forced to hire me. I provide a valuable service and I get paid of it just like every else who does their job.

a reply to: jaffo

Sure I have issues with it. But the system not being perfect does not mean that it all has to be thrown out.

I would rather throw it out completely than have the prison industrial complex continue as it is now.

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

In the US it seems:
"Better ten innocent men suffer than one guilty man get away."

I can read your contempt of the laypersons here, it's pretty obvious. IMO lawyers on both sides of cases are a big part of the PIC problem, along with the corrupt cops and judges.

If the prison industry is so legit, why do they need lobbyists who throw millions of dollars at politicians to make every stupid little thing a crime??

Don't believe me? I see a lot of people talking about drug dealing and murder, but no ones mentioned that something like EGGING A CAR is now a felony in a lot of states. My mother is a teacher and a student at her school was going to be arrested and charged with a felony for egging my moms car because the cops saw it happen. The girl had just turned 18 and the crimes max punishment is 2 years in prison. Sounds pretty god damn ridiculous right? It is. That's just one of many laws that are there just to be able to F people over for minor, childish crap. Its disgusting.

All of you people who are so quick to say "lock them up and throw away the key" are just sick. You think it makes you sound tough or something. To me you sound ignorant to the point of barely being human. I hope you don't have a child who makes a simple mistake and gets reamed for it, its not as funny as you think when its your blood behind bars.

originally posted by: Bassago
a reply to: jaffo

Sure I have issues with it. But the system not being perfect does not mean that it all has to be thrown out.

I would rather throw it out completely than have the prison industrial complex continue as it is now.

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

In the US it seems:
"Better ten innocent men suffer than one guilty man get away."

I can read your contempt of the laypersons here, it's pretty obvious. IMO lawyers on both sides of cases are a big part of the PIC problem, along with the corrupt cops and judges.

There is not an ounce of contempt on my part. What there IS on my part is irritation that people who DO NOT practice law for a living and who DID NOT complete law school and pass at least one Bar Exam think they are qualified to talk authoritatively on the subject when they clearly are not. And no our justice system is not based upon it being better that ten innocent suffer than one guilty get away. That statement is ridiculous and it shows that you clearly have no idea how busy the courts are, how many legitimate convictions occur every year, and what a small, tiny percentage of convictions are wrong. Again, basing your opinion on a few isolated articles as opposed to facts and real numbers is a poor way to found said opinion or to build an argument. Just as resorting to ad hominem attacks is a poor way to carry out a discussion. See, that's one of the things you learn in law school...how to construct a coherent argument based in facts and how to defend that argument. Insulting someone, making assumptions not supported by ALL of the facts, leaping from A to C without first going through B, those are indeed how the layman constructs an argument. And that's why they lose in court when they have no counsel. It's not a conspiracy, it's not "TBTB" and it's not the Rothschild family or the Masons or anyone else or any other secret society. It's them and their refusal to admit that they don't know what they are doing.

a reply to: jaffo
Do you think that laws should be written in such a way that when you are accused of breaking one, you need to pay an obscene amount of money to someone who has studied them for most their life? It would be in the accused persons best interest to represent themselves, because no one has more to lose than you. The only problem is you're going to run into a bunch of legalese that even most police and people who work in the system every single day don't even understand.

You can get a public defender. I've had one a couple of times, every time they did a decent job, only because I knew enough about what I was doing not to get screwed over. One of them tried to get me to except a plea bargain for 5 years in prison. I wouldn't do it, he kept insisting its the best deal I could get. 6 hours later I was walking home on probation. You gotta stand up for yourself because your free lawyer will not.

Doesn't really matter though. My life is a wreck because of all of it. I have a felony for growing marijuana, I've been trying to go to college, I was just de-enrolled from Oklahoma State University because they said my crime was too serious to attend their school. This is after I had been accepted and planning for months to start school in may, they just told me this on Friday. I don't know what to do anymore.

a reply to: jaffo

Just as resorting to ad hominem attacks is a poor way to carry out a discussion. See, that's one of the things you learn in law school...how to construct a coherent argument based in facts and how to defend that argument.

it's not "TBTB" and it's not the Rothschild family or the Masons or anyone else or any other secret society. It's them and their refusal to admit that they don't know what they are doing.

Well see, there you go. I wasn't making an argument so much I was making a thread about a current event and giving an opinion on the subject. Think what you will but all we "uneducated" people get an opinion too.

As for people not knowing what they're doing in court I'd agree. With the US having so many laws and regulations that's not surprising. I'd bet there are many many jobs you can't do without help. Thing is if you don't call a plumber or electrician when needed it generally does not destroy your life and everyone closely related to you.

Anyway there are lots of ramifications to an out of control US injustice system. Prison for corporate profit is just one of them. Gotta keep the fresh meat flowing.

originally posted by: Bundy
a reply to: jaffo
Do you think that laws should be written in such a way that when you are accused of breaking one, you need to pay an obscene amount of money to someone who has studied them for most their life? It would be in the accused persons best interest to represent themselves, because no one has more to lose than you. The only problem is you're going to run into a bunch of legalese that even most police and people who work in the system every single day don't even understand.

You can get a public defender. I've had one a couple of times, every time they did a decent job, only because I knew enough about what I was doing not to get screwed over. One of them tried to get me to except a plea bargain for 5 years in prison. I wouldn't do it, he kept insisting its the best deal I could get. 6 hours later I was walking home on probation. You gotta stand up for yourself because your free lawyer will not.

Doesn't really matter though. My life is a wreck because of all of it. I have a felony for growing marijuana, I've been trying to go to college, I was just de-enrolled from Oklahoma State University because they said my crime was too serious to attend their school. This is after I had been accepted and planning for months to start school in may, they just told me this on Friday. I don't know what to do anymore.

Gotta love it. You were busted growing weed but it's the system's fault that your life is a train wreck. Whatever, dude.

originally posted by: Bassago
a reply to: jaffo

Just as resorting to ad hominem attacks is a poor way to carry out a discussion. See, that's one of the things you learn in law school...how to construct a coherent argument based in facts and how to defend that argument.

it's not "TBTB" and it's not the Rothschild family or the Masons or anyone else or any other secret society. It's them and their refusal to admit that they don't know what they are doing.

Well see, there you go. I wasn't making an argument so much I was making a thread about a current event and giving an opinion on the subject. Think what you will but all we "uneducated" people get an opinion too.

As for people not knowing what they're doing in court I'd agree. With the US having so many laws and regulations that's not surprising. I'd bet there are many many jobs you can't do without help. Thing is if you don't call a plumber or electrician when needed it generally does not destroy your life and everyone closely related to you.

Anyway there are lots of ramifications to an out of control US injustice system. Prison for corporate profit is just one of them. Gotta keep the fresh meat flowing.

You keep trying to find excuses as to why my profession is in the wrong here. You keep, in doing so, ignoring the fact that people create problems for themselves. And you keep repeatedly showing your complete ignorance of how the courts work. You know what's a HORRIBLE pain for attorneys? People like you. You know why? because you show up in court thinking that you can handle it yourself but you know NOTHING of the rules of procedure or as to evidence or as to building a proper argument and defending that argument. You show up thinking that you should be able to just "tell your version of events" and go home. It doesn't work that way. And so everyone wastes a ton of time and money because you think you are too important to pay a trained professional and that the law "is just too gosh darned convoluted" and that you ought to be able to represent yourself. Oh, and all those pesky rules you think are unnecessary? Yeah, again if you had attended law school you would know that they evolved over time in response to problems which put innocent people in jail, not as a means to feed any machine. Those pesky and difficult to master rules of evidence? Yeah, they exist to make sure that you are not convicted on baloney manufactured just to screw you and put you in prison. Are they perfect? No. Are they pretty darned good? You bet they are. Your thinking is flawed because you start with a conspiracy theory and then filter all knowledge through what you believe to be true. Problem is, you don't have enough facts to speak about this particular item because you know squat about the practice of law or how it got to where it is. Take it how you want, but dumping on someone's education like you keep doing is poor manners and even poorer argument technique. You are mad because people know things you don't. So rather than give credit to that knowledge, you fold it into your existing conspiracy belief and play the victim instead, using poor and irrelevant examples to try and prove your point. Yes, you should hire a plumber when you need one. And yes you should hire an electrician when you need one. And yes, you should hire an attorney when you need one. Funny how you seem to have respect for trades the reality of which is much clearer to you but you keep pretending that attorneys and all those in the legal system are somehow acting together to screw everyone...because you don't have the least bit of understanding as to what they do or how they do it.

And just so we are clear here, no I do not support paying felons real world wages while they are in prison. Why? Because I don't want people getting themselves thrown in prison just because they can't find a job. I mean seriously, do you not see the problem with paying prisoners a real world wage?! If you would stop believing that the whole World is one giant conspiracy out to get you and instead start your look at each issue with fresh eyes you might see things a bit differently. Like I said to start, no it is not perfect, but our system is not the worst either. Please by all means tell me what other Countries let you sue the State when you are proven to have been wrongfully convicted, netting yourself a huge pile of cash. Do they have such a system in Turkey? Iran? Saudi Arabia? India? Malaysia? Russia? Yeah well, we have it here. And we have organizations dedicated to making right the wrongs we discover in our system. Again, paying prisoners a real world wage invites people to commit crimes so they can go to prison and avoid paying bills, get free health care, and bank money in tough times. No thanks. We pay enough hand outs to deadbeats in America these days, I would rather not make prisons into employment opportunities for the dregs of our society...

a reply to: jaffo

Strawman much? I don't care about lawyers in this thread except how they exacerbate the problem with prisons for profit and the problems they may help continue. As you said there are problems with justice in America but hey your job is to be biased anyway.

Personally I would call a plumber if needed but only talk to a lawyer if under duress.

Please try to stay on topic. "Prisons for profit" and whether or not they are moral, legal or constitutional.

Lots here seem to miss the point. The best measures of a civilization are how the worst among them are treated and the rights of the political minorities. The US fails both, like Rome before it and we know what happened there. In the US the lowest of the low are the poor and the prisoners. The poor most often become prisoners because the justice system runs on money, and even when not prisoners are looked at with contempt by the rest of society. The prisoners effectively have no rights because "who cares, they're criminals".

The best way to reduce crime is to have actual reform programs, our prisoners used to be based on the idea of rehabilitation, these days they're based on the idea of free labor. It's not wrong to have prisoners work, it's even good for them. Those hiring the prisoners however need to be paying a full wage equal to the private sector, otherwise it creates a situation where people get thrown in prison in order to provide cheap labor. From the prisoner side of things, making an actual wage gives them the opportunity to pay bills like room and board to the prison, have some savings so they can get an apartment/vehicle/work clothes when free, and in general be treated like a productive member of society. This leads to actual rehabilitation which reduces the number in prisons over time.

On the subject of lawyers, the current situation has room to improve. Lawyers are always going to provide an advantage, and because they're heavily involved in writing the law aren't going to put themselves out of work. The real problem isn't with lawyers, our system attempts to address that with the idea of public defenders. The problem lies in the public defenders themselves not being good enough and sentencing being too strict. The poster above for example who has the drug growing charge. He messed up and there should be consequences, but he shouldn't be barred for life from attempting to get a degree and have a good job in the future. People change over time and if we want to rehabilitate, the doors need to be kept open. For a crime like that the punishment should be a fine. Financial punishments are more effective, more humane, and don't feed the prison labor industry. After paying the fine the person should be allowed to move on with their life like it never happened.

Above all, the state should not be making contracts with prisons to keep them x% full at all times.

a reply to: jaffo

I hired a lawyer the first time I was arrested. Complete waste of money. Instead of being able to get everything done in 6-9months it was dragged out for 2.5 years. They told me I was lucky because I didn't do to 30 days jail. It is very rare for someone to do jail time for a first offense misdemeanor. Those were scare tactics to get me to pay more money.

I've learned my lesson, the last time I was arrest I represented myself and the prosecutor disposed the case. You live and you learn.

a reply to: jaffo

Yeah I grew a plant, and now its nearly impossible to find a job and just as hard to go to college. Makes total sense. I dont understand how you can say someone breaking a law one time, a law that a lot of people think is nonsense, should then be considered part of the "dregs of society". I think YOU are more of a part of that group than I. Being a judgemental, high and mighty prick doesn't make you a saint.

originally posted by: JackofBlades
Okay, there are approximately 2 million prisoners in the US.

2 million.

And at a push there are maybe 3 or 4 cases in this thread of being falsely arrested and imprisoned. See the big difference there? 2 million versus 3/4?

Fact of the matter is the overwhelming majority of those incarcerated deserve it. They've done something which violates someone's "God-given rights." Here in the UK, as well as in the US, God-given rights is a term used in Common Law, and violating them involves committing harm, loss, or injury to another person. Of those 2 million imprisoned in your prisons everyone (except the 3/4 who shouldn't be there) have violated those rights, and in so doing have done wrong not only to the victim but to society as a whole. Now, far as I'm concerned they themselves have no rights. If the government wants to sell them off as labour to a corporation, even better. They should have no human rights, and as such they should not be considered human.

Nobody needs to break the law. There's no reason for anyone to do it. And to all of those people saying "What if!?"
"What if I just glance at a text while driving?" Well, it's dangerously irresponsible to be controlling a giant hunk of metal at accelerated speeds whilst not concentrating. Criminal negligence.
"What if I happen to have a little bit of weed as I travel?" Weed's illegal. Whether we believe it should be or not, it is. Don't carry it everywhere with you.
"What if I'm carrying my meds in a little baggy and not the pack they came in?" Walking around with miscellaneous pills? Sound like a good idea? The original pack is convenient and hardly cumbersome. Just leave them in there.

Seriously, everyone who says "ANYONE CAN GO TO JAIL!" needs to remember that yes, anyone can go to jail. But you've got a hell of a lot more of a chance if you're breaking the law.
Make them work! Make them work hard! When their sentence is up let them out and maybe they'll remember how tough it is and not violate the liberties of anyone else.

I infringed on your liberty by having bud on me and carrying the medication i need for the day in a piece of foil instead of the whole bottle, and need to repay this infringement with my human freedom?

Yesterday, I and my criminal cohorts have oppressed and endangered you and your law abiding family, then another cohort came over at around 5, then we infringed some more.

I humbly apologize, and hope to redeem myself to society and the American way of life by relinquishing my God given status as a human being in exchange for indefinite seclusion and arbitrarily assigned hours of hard labor.

I hope you can forgive me, sir.

originally posted by: minusinfinity

The privatization of the US prison system needs to end, NOW.

I agree with the above statement.

The thing is if you don't break the law you won't go to prison.

Being "one bad traffic stop away from just such a fate" sounds a bit cynical. Maybe if you are transporting illegal goods or have drugs or a bomb in your vehicle but I don't think most people end up in prison because they were speeding or ran a stop sign.

Yep you and your opinions but not facts! Not every soul in prison is incarcerated because of major crimes.Some were placed there do to not willing to testify or shall I say snitch on the actual criminal due to many reasons such a threat on their life,other family members,etc! Sometimes it's best to accept such negativity because it could hurt you in the long run! CORRUPTION is the key that's behind the placement of many prisoners being locked up today and no matter what they do they should always be treated like you HUMAN! Don't we all serve the same GOD!

originally posted by: Bundy
a reply to: jaffo

I dont understand how you can say someone breaking a law one time, a law that a lot of people think is nonsense, should then be considered part of the "dregs of society". I think YOU are more of a part of that group than I.

Touche, and possibly very close to the truth BTW...

The entire Judicial system is 100% corrupt joke and has been completely usurped just like the MSM, the "goverment", all other academics, etc, ad nauseum...

It has been 100% re-purposed to protect the elite. PERIOD.

This is a very interesting read, which gives you the other-side-of-the-coin, on hiring an attorney to represent you in a court-of-law:

Why I believe one should not hire an attorney

“Should I hire an attorney?” is a question that each one must answer for themselves.
To make a quality decision, consider the following:

1. An attorney's first duty is to what or to whom? If We consult the latest Corpus Juris Secundum (C.J.S.) legal encyclopedia, volume 7, section 4, We will find that an attorney's first duty is to the courts and the public; not the client. www.usavsus.info...

Our court system has been infiltrated by members of this secret society sworn to protect each other from prosecution of any criminal activity and to render favorable judgments to its member. Other members of society are victimized in the courts.

A short time ago I received an email with a court excerpt, clearly showing how Freemasonry has infiltrated the court system by putting judges, prosecutors and attorneys in key positions. As long as this continues there is no justice but theirs, as those people stand above the law, because they ARE the law.

If people don't know about Freemasonry and its influence on the legal system, they have no clue that they are setup and have little chance of an honest trial.

In this particular case, John, the defendant observes how the Attorney General, Mr. Anthony Krastek is giving a hand signal (the palm up) each and every time his attorney makes a statement, until he cannot take it any longer. He asks Mr. Krastek if he is a Freemason (Exhibit 1, page 7), whereas the Attorney General turns red and gives the full "raised arm palms up" (high distress sign) to the judge, Lawrence J. O'Toole. The judge suddenly loses it on the record, and gives reference to Freemasonic symbols, the ones on the one-dollar-bill (Exhibit 1, page 7).

Freemasons Control the Court (And Thus the Legal System)

The Court System And Freemasonry

The legal system is a joke

What chance does a non - Mason have going into a court of law against Masons when there is a Masonic judge and Masonic attorneys. All a Mason has to do is let a Masonic Judge, or even a Masonic Juror know that he is a Masonic brother and that is that.

Sometimes you look the way a case, is going and it just doesn't make sense. We had one in Seattle not too long ago, in fact the Union my sister worked for was involved in it and nothing went right, even simple points that were obvious to everyone but the Judge. They couldn't figure out what was wrong and I asked her, "Are the defendants and the judge Masons?" She checked it out and found out that they were.

I said, "You don't have a chance. There is no way you can win because, they passed the word to the judge in the lodge or they gave that Judge a signal, they gave him the sign of the square, or the sign of distress, gave him one of a dozen different signs they could give him and that judge was bound by his Masonic code to find for his brother. He is going to do that for the Mason whether he's right or wrong."

There is no way you can win

Good book on this: Lawyers and Judges, American Trojan Horses

When it comes to life...it's not always BLACK and WHITE.

Being a convicted FELON does not mean you should be banned to a life of condemnation.

As life is not black and whilte...neither is a life after incarceration.

There ARE convicted FELONS that deserve a second chance.

If you are a habitual pedophile, you have NO right to a second chance. You have already stolen a persons life...in my opinion.

If you are a habitual rapist...you have NO right to a second chance. You have already stolen a persons life. The victims life will be forever changed.

If you are a killer...you have no rights to a second chance.

Nothing else needs to be said in that issue.

There are some non violent felons that are harmless to the rest of society...

In those cases...they absolutely deserve a second chance.

Life is grey,,,,

Black and White is left for those that choose to exist in a polarized existence.

Just my 2 cents.

Interestingly I want to reply to a quoted post, and the reply to that post. The new boards really hate multiquoting

originally posted by: minusinfinity
I agree with the above statement.

The thing is if you don't break the law you won't go to prison.

Being "one bad traffic stop away from just such a fate" sounds a bit cynical. Maybe if you are transporting illegal goods or have drugs or a bomb in your vehicle but I don't think most people end up in prison because they were speeding or ran a stop sign.

I've had those bad traffic stops happen, or bad home invasions. I've been pulled over for "driving suspiciously" and beaten on the side of the road by a cop. Had I done anything to defend myself I would have gone to jail for assaulting an officer. Another time I was pulled over and had my car rummaged, torn apart, and damaged on the suspicion I had drugs. I'm not into drugs, so they naturally found nothing, had they found anything from bullets, to a pipe (which is perfectly legal to own), to a gun, a knife, or anything else suspicious I would have gone to jail.

In the event that turned me against the police for the rest of my life, they invaded my home in the middle of the night, murdered my dog, put me face down in my dogs blood and threatened to kill me if I so much as twitched. Then they robbed me by stealing my computer looking for evidence of a crime, took my TV and DVR, used the cash I had on hand as evidence I was into drugs, and punched several holes in the walls looking for hiding places. The reason was because my roommate grew tomato plants in the basement and a helicopter noticed the heat signature from the lights on a fly over. I never got back anything they took, and no charges were ever filed because I wasn't breaking the law.

There are so many laws on the books that each of us are committing crimes that could get us imprisoned every day. Any lawyer worth their fee will tell you that it's impossible to not break the law. If they want to get you for something they can, and the system has been designed this way on purpose. Did you know that in countries like the USSR, or China, or North Korea the common wisdom is that you do not call the police to your home for any reason? This is because even if you have cause to call them chances are they will find a violation and you will goto jail. That's the way it is with police in the US now. If you speak to them, you have to keep in mind that they can find something and punish you for it.

I'm reminded of a rather depressing line from a video game, and it's unfortunately very true.
Q: What is lifes greatest illusion?
A: Innocence.

originally posted by: Zackery
Yep you and your opinions but not facts! Not every soul in prison is incarcerated because of major crimes.Some were placed there do to not willing to testify or shall I say snitch on the actual criminal due to many reasons such a threat on their life,other family members,etc! Sometimes it's best to accept such negativity because it could hurt you in the long run! CORRUPTION is the key that's behind the placement of many prisoners being locked up today and no matter what they do they should always be treated like you HUMAN! Don't we all serve the same GOD!

Not everyone who goes to prison is there because they did something wrong, but most are. We will never find the real number on this because of the nature of the question however. The real breakdown in the system isn't in the process but in the prosecutors who have the job of convicting rather than finding guilt, and in the judges who are tasked with putting X people in jail. That is where reforms need to happen and the starting place to reforms is in getting rid of private prisons.

And no, we don't all serve the same god unless we can find the one sect of the one religion in the world that is actually correct, and then convert everyone to that religion. As it is, some of us (like me) don't serve any god.

a reply to: Bassago

read the constitution.
in the constitution it specifically states "involuntary servitude is illegal, unless as a consequence of or punishment for a crime"

thirteenth amendment to the constitution:
13th Amendment
Amendment XIII
Section 1.

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2.

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

stop your libbers a** whining and bellyaching, or join the staff of a prison and work there.