Cult of the Bronze Serpent

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

. . . or as in your case, even the Lord himself . . .

Not all Christians follow the Catholic belief in wafers turning into the flesh of Jesus.
Many Christian denominations see it as a symbol that Jesus gave his life for us.
It was a personal sacrifice for him to have that done to him, but he was not something that was offered to God as a sacrifice that we can get credit for somehow.
We have to present our own good lives as a living sacrifice, imitating Jesus in his selflessness, and the love of God (not holding back in His giving of gifts) for sending His son to us to lead us into righteousness.

originally posted by: jmdewey60

Many Christian denominations see it as a symbol that Jesus gave his life for us.

Which is based on Catholic dogma. The Gospel doesn't say that. The one who gave his life was the one who saved Jesus' life, traditionally called 'Longinus Pantera', the Roman centurion who guarded the cross. "From his wound we received healing" is to be understood that in order for Jesus to survive he HAD to be pierced by the soldier's lance. I can only hope you don't have to learn that the hard way. Like a few in this thread has already experienced. You are like one who has "eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear". According to tradition, Longinus was executed for having helped a convicted criminal (Jesus) survive.

It was a personal sacrifice for him to have that done to him, but he was not something that was offered to God as a sacrifice that we can get credit for somehow.
We have to present our own good lives as a living sacrifice, imitating Jesus in his selflessness, and the love of God (not holding back in His giving of gifts) for sending His son to us to lead us into righteousness.

Again. Who saved their lives because your Jesus died? Everyone of his 12 disciples except for John were tortured and killed, and following them went thousands of Christians to meet the same fate. It wasn't until the Church started killing those who didnot believe in the Romanised 616 Jesus Beast that faith in Jesus saved lives: And the Beast had the power to kill anyone who didnot adhere and worship it. Rightiousness? More like copy-paste-majick. Why is surviving an execution bad news and evil, while dying after severe torture is good news and right? Rightiousness makes sense and is logical. It is impossible to be dead for three days and then become alive again. Even Einstein said that, but noooo, Jesus was the Son of God and never did anything wrong in his life (eventhough the Gospel is full of examples showing how Jesus broke several commandments in the Torah, among them disrespecting his parents, stealing and joyriding a donkey and various cases of blasphemy.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

It is impossible to be dead for three days and then become alive again. Even Einstein said that, . . .

Einstein was not a Christian.

. . . but noooo, Jesus was the Son of God and never did anything wrong in his life (eventhough the Gospel is full of examples showing how Jesus broke several commandments in the Torah, among them disrespecting his parents, stealing and joyriding a donkey and various cases of blasphemy.

"The Lord has need of it" was the carte-blanche of the king.
As the Messiah, he had special exemptions.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

It is impossible to be dead for three days and then become alive again. Even Einstein said that, . . .

Einstein was not a Christian.

Oh dear. Guess we can forget everything he said then, hm? Naturally, women and non-Christians are not entitled to have their say or educate us with REAL knowledge and refute millennia old lies, folly and misunderstanding. Since Paul told you so.

. . . but noooo, Jesus was the Son of God and never did anything wrong in his life (eventhough the Gospel is full of examples showing how Jesus broke several commandments in the Torah, among them disrespecting his parents, stealing and joyriding a donkey and various cases of blasphemy.

"The Lord has need of it" was the carte-blanche of the king.
As the Messiah, he had special exemptions.

Sounds like decadence and robbery to me. Hand over your car keys, the Lord wants it. He was tortured by the Sanhedrin under Annas for blasphemy and was later sentenced to death for stirring up insurgency in Jerusalem. Fact is Jesus denied being the Messiah on every occasion it was proposed. You denounce Jesus, but celebrate Paul.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Fact is Jesus denied being the Messiah on every occasion it was proposed.

He was only holding back from announcing it until the time was right, which it was when the donkey was borrowed.
He didn't actually deny it.
And Paul said it, too.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Fact is Jesus denied being the Messiah on every occasion it was proposed.

He was only holding back from announcing it until the time was right, which it was when the donkey was borrowed.
He didn't actually deny it.
And Paul said it, too.

Suit yourself.

John 6:15 Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself. (ESV)

ETA: Let's just agree to disagree, and try to stay on topic and not ruin Zardust's thread. Sorry for derailing here.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

By request from Zardust, I will try to explain what a saros-cyclus is and why it was important to the ancients.

Background: www.princeton.edu...

Predicting eclipses, well it's not really that difficult. If you see Sol and Luna as arms on a clock (think geocentric for simplicity here) and start it off, every time the arms pass eachother there is an eclipse, and the clockwork would use 223 synodic months or a little over 18 years before the two arms would return to the same relative 00:00 position as when it started and the cycle starts over, nearly identical eclipses will occur. Since we don't use decimals when talking of years, it is common to refer to it as a 19 year cycle (in reference to the picture above) since we would refer to the unit beyond the completed year (just like there is no year 0 but 1 AD, and how the 1400's were the 15th century). Within that cycle there would be a fixed pattern of eclipti, both solar and lunar, so by simply adding 18 years 11.322 days from any eclipse, and it will happen again, though in a different heliographic position in the Zodiak, but you can accurately predict the time and place of any eclipse down to the nano second and where in the sky it will happen, past present or future, in repeating patterns within it's given saros.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

. . . what a saros-cyclus is and why it was important to the ancients.

I think this (what is depicted in your illustration) links right in with what it says in Revelation.
That might sound odd, but the book makes use of whatever was current at the time to make points, and this is one of them.
The idea is that the world we live in is in constant peril, and needs a god to prevent it from just going into total oblivion.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Apocalypse 5:12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood.

What is discribed are solar and lunar eclipses. And further:

Apocalypse 8:12 The fourth angel blew his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of their light might be darkened, and a third of the day might be kept from shining, and likewise a third of the night.

Again, solar and lunar eclipses, only partial ones this time. Date stamps for the events in the Apocalypse no doubt.


ETA: Also, during 2014/15 we will experience a lunar Tetrad, or four lunar eclipses in a row, and occuring on Hebrew feast days, showing how the Hebrew calendar was based on the saros cycle and tuned to the occurences of Tetradia. Some may recognise the term Tetrad from the antique masters. Also G-7 used the Pythagorean Tetrad/Tetractys as their logo for their summit in Den Haag earlier this year.

"During the 21st century, there are 8 sets of tetrads, so I would describe tetrads as a frequent occurrence in the current pattern of lunar eclipses," says Espenak. "But this has not always been the case. During the three hundred year interval from 1600 to 1900, for instance, there were no tetrads at all."

science.nasa.gov...

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Date stamps for the events in the Apocalypse no doubt.

I don't think so.
I think it is more general.
I think the writer, John, was concerned that the Roman Empire was a manifestation of the powers that wanted to destroy the world.
It talks about the return of Apollyon from the abyss, which sounds a lot like the thing getting speared in the picture.

a reply to: jmdewey60

The pic shows the serpent Apep being threatened by Set in order to protect Hero holding Ra on his head and what looks like Toth and his Ba riding the Sun-boat through the Underworld-- the 19 coils of Apep's tail depicts the 19 (or a little more than 18 years, not the last coil is but the tip of it's tail, and see explanation above) year eclipse cycle.

PS: The explanation of the saros in the post above isn't accurate, it's to be understood symbolically, there are quite a few factors more that must be just right for there to be an eclipse or not.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Also, speaking of serpents and eclipses, a solar eclipse can only occur if the New Moon is close to one of it's two nodes, while a lunar eclipse can only happen if the Full Moon happens close to either of the Moon's nodes. Since Luna's orbit's about 5° off compared to the ecliptic, it can appear at up to 5° higher (north) or lower (south) declination in the sky compared to the path of the Sun (the width of your hand on arm's length is about 10°). When the Moon crosses the ecliptic at either New or Full Moons it is either in it's ascending north node or it's descending south node and a solar or a lunar eclipse occur. In astrology the north node is called Caput Draconis, or Head of the Dragon, while the South node is called Cauda Draconis, Tail of the same.