Cult of the Bronze Serpent

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: graphuto



Jesus likened himself to the serpent. How does it have nothing to do with Christianity?

Jesus referred to Old Testament events on more than one occassion to make a point. He also said things like ''as it was with Jonah'' and ''as it was in the days of Noah''. Jesus likened his role and purpose to that of the brass snake. In the sense, he was drawing a parallel between the sign of the brass snake and the sign of his ascension saving those who followed his teachings.

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: zardust

Brass and bronze are NOT the same thing.

[Num 21:9 KJV] 9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

The word brass is H5178 Nechoseth with its top 4 entries as definitions.
copper, bronze
copper (ore), bronze (as copper alloy)
fetters (of copper or bronze)
copper (as value)

Bronze=Brass in the Bible at least

He didn't "liken himself unto the serpent"

He said that in the same way the serpent was lifted up, the Son of Man must also be lifted up.

Except serpents, and especially bronze serpents had a very strong connection to the exact topic he happens to be discussing, the New Birth. It would be like someone now talking about a cross and its meaning and totally bypassing the cruxifiction of Jesus. He also likens himself to a ladder.

John 1
50Jesus answered and said to him, “Because I said to you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” 51And He said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see the heavens opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

You are correct that the lifting up is what the outcome is, but those examples he used are there for a reason. They are to tell you a piece of the story. When Jesus likens himself to Jacobs ladder, he is telling you something. One thing is hat he is Bethel, the house of God. Also that brings to mind the anointed or christosed pillar that Jacob set up in that place.

Hmm pillars and bronze serpents, pretty outside the law aren't they? God must have made a mistake by allowing those to slip through. I seem to remember something about "you shall make no graven images of anything in the heavens, or on the earth, or in the sea". Also something about smashing down the pillars. And yet here we have 2 examples of kosher worship using these very blatant pagan things in a very similar sense to the pagan usage. And Jesus bringing up these symbols.


Lets say that in the OT, instead of sending "fiery serpents" upon the people to punish them, he sent "fiery doves"

Its funny you mention doves because doves are very often associated with serpents in the Levantine Serpent Cult.

Dove=pigeon in the OT also

From the paper in my first post on the Serpent Cult

The association of birds with snakes most probably indicates a female fertility deity. Such an association we met in Megiddo, where clay figurines of pigeons with outspread wings (fig. 12)19 were found along-side the bronze serpent. The connection of the Canaanite bronze serpents with fertility deities seems to be supported by the finds from Timna‘, where one of the votive offerings along-side the serpent was a phallic figurine

a reply to: sk0rpi0n

Cult of Bronze Serpents

Therefore, it seems that Moses’ serpent should be perceived as a symbol of the divine Ruler of the Serpents, who heals—by his power—the consequences of the bite. It cannot be determined whether this is YHWH himself or some minor deity subordinate to God’s power. When we look for the answer to this question, however, we have to notice that throughout the entire Near East the snake was considered a symbol of health and even immortality. This was usually connected with snakes shedding their skins, which made a semblance of rebirth into eternity; cf. Gilgamesh Epic 11:287–289, where a snake eats the herb of life and immediately rejuvenates, shedding its skin.28
Independently of the character of the snake cult, there is no doubt that snakes were venerated by the Hebrews. This is clearly indicated in another place in the Bible that is very interesting for us: “He [King Hezekiah] removed the high places (􏰥􏰳􏰴􏰫), and broke the pillars (􏰥􏰳􏰫􏰵􏰴), and cut down the Asherah (􏰩􏰶􏰷􏰬). And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent (􏰥􏰷􏰧􏰮􏰩􏰁􏰷􏰧􏰮) that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had burned incense to it; it was called Ne􏰀ushtan (􏰪􏰥􏰷􏰧􏰮)” (2 Kgs 18:4). It follows clearly from the biblical text that the bronze serpent was a cultic object.29 In light of the reference to Moses, it is hard to perceive Ne􏰀ushtan in any other way than as a symbol of god—the healer.30[/ex]

a reply to: deadeyedick

Well, good then. Sorry if I misread your intention.
(Paragraphing helps).

Glad to know we agree on that. I prefer the company of animals and plants over that of people.

@ zardust.... I'm not sure I get your point. Are you copy pasting from another source and waving it around as fact? I thought I made it clear that Jesus kept referring to old testament records/people to make a point.

a reply to: sk0rpi0n

Sorry I'm a bit dense sometimes. What is your point. Are you disagreeing that he likened himself to the serpent? Or that it had pagan symbolism/origin? Or something else?

No I'm not saying that quote is fact. Just what those guys concluded from their study. I'm just presenting a view which happens to correspond to mine.

a reply to: zardust

Are you disagreeing that he likened himself to the serpent?

He likened himself to a specific brass serpent, not to serpents in general.
His being "lifted up" was his being killed in a public manner that a lot of people witnessed and a lot of people heard about.
The knowledge of his person and deeds is the basis of the good news gospel.

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: sk0rpi0n

Sorry I'm a bit dense sometimes. What is your point. Are you disagreeing that he likened himself to the serpent? Or that it had pagan symbolism/origin? Or something else?

No I'm not saying that quote is fact.

jesus only likened his role and purpose to that of the brass snake....which also healed people and saved them from death. There was no pagan symbolism.

a reply to: sk0rpi0n

a reply to: jmdewey60

So if we are talking about resurrection, and serpents have a known symbol of resurrection in all communities, and Jesus talks about the bronze serpent that happens to be exactly like all the other bronze serpents, and just happened to be fashioned in the region that the shrine of Timna was in, in the same time period, and had the same family connections, all of these things are irrelevant?

I'm not saying that Jesus is condoning all pagan practices btw. Just as he doesn't condone all Hebrew practices. There is a crystalization of who God is in Jesus as the exact image. The corrupted image was found in Judaism along with Paganism. Both had their archetypes and symbols, that were a mix of correct and false images of God. Jesus corrects the view of Eye for an Eye, and retribution. And he corrects the view that everything not Jewish is bad. The Samaritan parable, the Caananite woman are a couple examples that are more overt. But he also is transfigured on Mt. Hermon, the mountain of the Gods, the mountain of Hermes, the Greek Logos. Here the likening to the bronze serpent is a shout out to the pagans IMO of course.

Thats my angle here, if you don't feel me, no biggie.

a reply to: FlyersFan

It definitely throws a cog into the verbal plenary inspiration model of the bible.

a reply to: zardust

But he also is transfigured on Mt. Hermon, the mountain of the Gods, the mountain of Hermes, the Greek Logos.

Whatever the highest mountain is in a given region is going to attract religious significance in that region. The gospels tell the story that Jesus went up a high mountain or to the top of a mountain, to pray. The implied similarity, according to Jewish thinking, would be to Moses on mount Sinai.

Here the likening to the bronze serpent is a shout out to the pagans IMO of course.

He only likened the action of being lifted, as Moses had the brass object, to his own lifting up.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Moses went up a couple mountains. All becoming the mountain of God. Yes. They are all the same in type. Moses died on Mt. Nebo.

Nebo wiki

Nabu is accorded the office of patron of the scribes, taking over from the Sumerian goddess Nisaba. His symbols are the clay writing tablet with the writing stylus. He wears a horned cap, and stands with hands clasped, in the ancient gesture of priesthood. He rides on a winged dragon (mušhuššu, also known as Sirrush) that is initially Marduk's.

We have the scribe god, the priest god and rides a winged dragon (serpent)

Is there any similarities there between Moses and Nebo? Scribe, Priest and has a serpent.

In late Babylonian astrology, Nabu was connected with the planet Mercury. As the god of wisdom and writing, he was equated by the Greeks to either Apollo or Hermes, the latter identified by the Romans with their own god Mercury.

Now we have Jesus, who picks a very random symbol to just happen to mention, out of a hat, could be a pigeon , could be a serpent. Of all of the things that happened in the Exodus story, he just picks this random symbol to liken his death and resurrection to.

And his transfiguration which is a resurrection pre death, or glorification, takes place on the high mountain. It isn't named by the way but Baneas or Pan-eas is where Ceserea Philippi is, which is the location of the scene following the transfiguration. Baneas or Ceserea Philippi is at the base of Mt. Hermon. Hermes is given as the father of Pan. Pan is all, as in pan-theism. The all-god.

Jesus is transfigured up on this Mount Hermon. Hermes=Nebo. Nebo had the winged dragon to ride on, and was the scribe god, you could say the mediator between gods and men. Hermes has the winged serpent staff to "ride on". The caduceus, the staff transports him as the god of messengers/commerce, he is also known as the mediator between gods and men, and is called the Logos.

Moses/Nebo, Jesus/Hermes, multiple serpent references.

Aaron or Harun, Hor-on, Died on Mt. Hor, aka Mt. Horus.

a reply to: zardust

Moses went up a couple mountains. All becoming the mountain of God.

What we call Mt. Hermon today was in Joshua and Chronicles called Sion, which was also called the mountain of God, being one of the boundary markers of the promised land that was ordered to be occupied by the Israelites after crossing the Jordan from the wilderness.
I think that is where the term Zion came from, which was a practice in ancient times in the Middle East, of having the temple a miniature model of what the God lived in. Zion in Jerusalem mimicking and vicariously serving as God's abode.
Jesus somehow crossed through a portal into the actual realm of God, taking along with him three witnesses.

Is there any similarities there between Moses and Nebo? Scribe, Priest and has a serpent.

Of course there is no reason to think that it could not be, other than a self-imposed mental block to not accept something that you don't already believe in.

Of all of the things that happened in the Exodus story, he just picks this random symbol to liken his death and resurrection to.

Keep in mind that this is John, which was probably written to counter criticism of the earlier gospels by the Jews, so he may have been making a sort of partially hidden jab at the Pharisaical thinking of the day. Maybe an allusion to the sin of the Israelites who were worshiping relics, or even the reverence that they (John's potential audience) lent to what is essentially a holy object, the temple itself, which was by the way razed to ground level, the opposite of which direction Jesus was going.

And his transfiguration which is a resurrection pre death, or glorification, takes place on the high mountain.

It was Jesus as he really is, or at that point, what he really was, as if his normal visible self was just as he appeared as on earth, while simultaneously retaining a sort of heavenly self in another dimension.

Baneas or Ceserea Philippi is at the base of Mt. Hermon. Hermes is given as the father of Pan. Pan is all, as in pan-theism. The all-god.

I don't think that the writer of the gospel of John was concerned with any of that. He was concerned with the post-temple-destruction rabbinical activity as it affected the church.

Jesus is transfigured up on this Mount Hermon. Hermes=Nebo. Nebo had the winged dragon to ride on, and was the scribe god, you could say the mediator between gods and men. Hermes has the winged serpent staff to "ride on". The caduceus, the staff transports him as the god of messengers/commerce, he is also known as the mediator between gods and men, and is called the Logos.

Not much unlike the Thor movies today.
Again, I doubt that any similarity is intentional, for one thing, Jesus was not trying to compare himself to Moses and whatever power he may or may not have had.
I think it was only a reference to the manner by which he would die.

Deleted because of formatting issues.

a reply to: jmdewey60

I think that is where the term Zion came from, which was a practice in ancient times in the Middle East, of having the temple a miniature model of what the God lived in. Zion in Jerusalem mimicking and vicariously serving as God's abode.

You and I are in total agreement here. Sion is also called Saphon or Zaphon. Studying the mountains in the Bible is fascinating. Mt. Hermon is the highest mountain in Israel, and the snow run off from it is what supplies the Jordan River.

Gilgamesh passes near Mount Hermon in the Epic of Gilgamesh, where it was called Saria by Sumerians, "Saria and Lebanon tremble at the felling of the cedars".[5][6] In the Book of Enoch, Mount Hermon is the place where the Watcher class of fallen angels descended to Earth. They swear upon the mountain that they would take wives among the daughters of men and take mutual imprecation for their sin (Enoch 6). The mountain or summit is referred to as Saphon in Ugaritic texts where the palace of Baal is located in a myth about Attar

Attar

Attar (Aramaic); Athtar (South Arabia); Astar (Abyssinia); Ashtar (Moab); Ashtar(t) (Canaan); Ishtar (Assyro-Babylonian)[1] is the god of the morning star in western Semitic mythology. In Canaanite legend, he attempts to usurp the throne of the dead god Baal Hadad but proves inadequate. In semi-arid regions of western Asia he was sometimes worshipped as a rain god. His female counterpart is the Phoenician Astarte.

[Rev 22:16 KJV] 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

[Isa 14:12-13 KJV] 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

The word North is Tsaphown or Zaphon.

a reply to: jmdewey60

continued


I agree that Jesus isn't taking people backwards into venerating objects. That is definitely not what I'm trying to say. What I'm saying is more along the lines of this:

1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

The word Example is Tupos or Type, here are a couple examples of the word Tupos

[Act 7:44 KJV] 44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
[Rom 5:14 KJV] 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
[Heb 8:5 KJV] 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

The bronze serpent is a type, a very ancient type that predates Israel. This type was carried over into Israel, in total disregard for the Mosaic law. And used by Jesus as an example of himself. Just like the temple which was about to be destroyed was a type of the body of Jesus, which was likened to a seed. That seed sprouted a new temple that his physical body was a type of, that is the body/bride the many membered body.

Adam is a type, the tabernacle is a type. These types are not 'THE THING', they are signs that point the way home, which is Through the veil, another type as flesh, or the mind of flesh.

a reply to: zardust

These types are not 'THE THING', they are signs that point the way home, which is Through the veil, another type as flesh, or the mind of flesh.

Jesus does the same thing in John with the manna, then saying that gave life, but the temporary kind.
He was providing life of the permanent kind.
The brass serpent is the same, it gave life, but his was better, eternal.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: zardust

These types are not 'THE THING', they are signs that point the way home, which is Through the veil, another type as flesh, or the mind of flesh.

Jesus does the same thing in John with the manna, then saying that gave life, but the temporary kind.
He was providing life of the permanent kind.
The brass serpent is the same, it gave life, but his was better, eternal.

YES!!!

All I'm saying is that Jesus not only is the Telos (fulfillment) of the Jewish Fables, but of the Gentile Fables. God sends rain on the just and the unjust. He has given light to all the nations, but all have a diamond in the rough.

Jesus corrected the Jews view on the Father, from the vengeful, jealous, destructive tribal god, that creates good and evil, that curses, etc. "you have heard it said an eye for an eye, but I tell you love your enemies". When he says "no man has seen the Father except the son", he is correcting their view of God. The gods require sacrifice, they send people to hell for eternity, they rape, they kill arbitrarily.

This is why Paul says he is the exact image of the Father, and Jesus says if you have seen me you have seen the father. "Father forgive them for they know not what they do", is not the same as "‘The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.’"

They have a dual view of God here, and undifferentiated view of the Father. But thats because they aren't seeing the Father. They are seeing the veil (some are seeing the outer veil some the inner woven with cherubim). That is the nature of the realm of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. (god is forgiving but by no means does he clear the guilty)

14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


The Spirit is the Tree of Life which is found in the Holy of Holies or Paradise, past the guardian cherubs. After Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of duality, they could not clearly see Tree of Life, it was blocked by the veil of Flesh, our minds.

Col 1

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him….

19For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—….

so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, 26that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, 27to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

The mystery is hidden behind the veil. The veil is our mind. The veil is woven with cherubim. The cherubim are the prototypes of the gods. The good and evil gods are a product of our mind. The mystery is that Christ in you is the hope of glory. In you where? Behind the veil, in the Holy of Holies. This is the bridal chamber where the two become one flesh "this is a great mystery concerning Christ and the Church". The mystery was revealed to Paul in the 3rd heaven, aka the Holy of Holies, or paradise. The mystery is also that he is creating one new man out of Jew and Gentile. He has broken down the wall of dividing between the two.

a reply to: zardust

All I'm saying is that Jesus not only is the Telos (fulfillment) of the Jewish Fables, but of the Gentile Fables.

A certain segment today pretend that there was this great wall of separation around everything "Hebrew".
Like not saying "Jesus" because that was "too Hellenistic".
I ordered a book the other day through Amazon, Peoples of an Almighty God: Competing Religions in the Ancient World (Anchor Bible Reference Library) by Jonathan Goldstein, (dirt cheap, couldn't resist) where they pretty much absorbed the Marduk mythos, after the expansion of the Babylonia Empire into Palestine. (haven't actually gotten the book yet, so I am assuming that, for the present)
Revelation is very anti "Babylon" but the "child" of the woman of chapter 12 is a faithful rendition of Marduk mythology.

The good and evil gods are a product of our mind.

The idea is.
Being evil would be a contradiction of terms if applied to God, or a god.
"Evil" is anthropomorphised into a sort of god, but I think it is the seemingly negative aspect of the nature of the universe, at least from our point of view.
Its acting like a person is the work of the imagination, as you said.

originally posted by: zardust
When I think of Midian I think of Jethro, Moses' Father In-Law, the priest of YHWH.

This is quite interesting, since God speaks to Moses in Exodus 6:3 revealing how Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew God by the name El Shaddai ("God Almighty"), but at Jethro's there is a change in how God names himself, for apparently, only after Jethro the Tetragrammaton was revealed.

I believe the Tetragrammaton reflects the name of the Egyptian Creator God Hu-Hu, and that the H'es represents God's Creation (Jod means lit. Arm, i.e. to Create) of the Heavens (Space/Cosmos) and the Earth (Matter), represented by Jod (lit. 'an arm' in the meaning 'to create') and Vav (lit. 'a tent peg' or 'ground support for a tent') through breath/spirit (Heh), as is visualised in the Creation of Adam, how God turned a clay statue into 'a living (animated) soul'. Throughout the Bible the Heavens are visualised as a tent i.e. a 'Tabernacle'. I believe that the "lost name of God" can be reconstructed using this formulae. After God had Created (Jod) 'the Heavens and the Earth' (Vav), God's Spirit (Heh) hovered over 'the face of the Waters'. Looking up 'Waters' a new letter emerges with that exact meaning: Mem. See the light? Thus I assume (may God forgive my folly...) that the next letter in Gods name is Mem, or JHVHM.... (and the funny thing is that read in Norwegian, "Ja hvem" means lit. "Yes who". According to Kabalah God's full name is a code of 72 letters, and I believe that Genesis 1 has this complete name encoded into it's very meaning and that each stage in his creation is represented by a corresponding letter in the alef-bet. (Source #1 and Source #2)

And God is not the only one known by many and complex names. According to rabbinical tradition Jethro himself is recorded with as many as seven names: Reuel, Jether, Jethro, Hobab, Heber, Keni and Putiel (Source).



ETA: If you draw the four (Aramaic) letters of the Tetragrammaton on top of eachother, it becomes the shape of a man, putting a Mem below it becomes a man hovering above water: "And the Spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters...." compare with st.Michael in the end of Daniel 12.