Researchers find 3-million-year-old landscape beneath Greenland Ice Sheet

April 18, 2014

Glaciers and ice sheets are commonly thought to work like a belt sander. As they move over the land they scrape off everything — vegetation, soil and even the top layer of bedrock. So a team of university scientists and a NASA colleague were greatly surprised to discover an ancient tundra landscape preserved under the Greenland Ice Sheet, below two miles of ice.

"We found organic soil that has been frozen to the bottom of the ice sheet for 2.7 million years," said University of Vermont geologist and lead author Paul Bierman.

The finding provides strong evidence that the Greenland Ice Sheet has persisted much longer than previously known, enduring through many past periods of global warming. The team reported their discovery on April 17 in the journal Science.

www.sciencecodex.com...

The new research, supported by funding from the National Science Foundation, shows that the soil had been stable and exposed at the surface for somewhere between 200,000 and one million years before being covered by ice.

The discovery also indicates that even during the warmest periods since the ice sheet formed, the center of Greenland remained stable.


"It's likely that it did not fully melt at any time," Bierman said.

This allowed a tundra landscape to be locked away, unmodified, under ice through millions of years of global warming and cooling.


"Greenland really was green! However, it was millions of years ago," said Rood. "Before it was covered by the second largest body of ice on Earth, Greenland looked like the green Alaskan tundra."

a reply to: snarky412

But wait, there were other periods of warming and cooling? But I thought that was all our fault! Hmmmm I'm confused.... /s

EDIT: When I've argued this before with climate alarmists at first they usually try to dismiss the ice ages etc, but when I push them they usually admit that yes there were ice ages and warm periods before our industrialism AND so therefore it IS natural. BUT now we are making it go faster! Ahaaaa I see, so how fast did it go before? And how fast is it going now? What data are you comparing to make that statement? Well..... They don't actually have an answer for that.

I'm not even sure you could get an accurate answer anyway, because you would need to compare various ice ages/warm periods and THIS warm period/ice age would need to be completed so we could compare... It's just impossible to prove if we are "speeding it up" and even if we were so what? It is inevitable anyway!

All the time and effort worrying about it and fighting against nature to stop it is pointless and would be much better spent on learning how to adapt with it.

a reply to: Meee32

The argument of the climate alarmists is quite simple and it generally goes like this ...

"I chose the wrong professional line of work to specialize in and I haven't got the time or money to retrain ... SO be afraid and buy my story OR I will have to take my scientific expertise and turn it towards more profitable outcomes like building nasty new age weapons for our nations enemies!"

They'd rather we buy their story and avoid the nasty WAR business side of things to survive!

Why is that??? Oh its because so called civilized society isn't fair or equitable!

originally posted by: DietJoke
a reply to: Meee32

The argument of the climate alarmists is quite simple and it generally goes like this ...

"I chose the wrong professional line of work to specialize in and I haven't got the time or money to retrain ... SO be afraid and buy my story OR I will have to take my scientific expertise and turn it towards more profitable outcomes like building nasty new age weapons for our nations enemies!"

They'd rather we buy their story and avoid the nasty WAR business side of things to survive!

Why is that??? Oh its because so called civilized society isn't fair or equitable!

Lol... Well I often think progress is held back by the problem you pose. As in going too far to turn back. Like imagine if they found a common plant cured cancer... Awesome! But what of the radiotheropists and professors and specialists and years of training in all these related fields? As you say they would need to be re-trained, that would be quite the task I'm sure.

The world certainly isn't fair...

But sorry OP, the thread really is about the discovery and I'm sorry to de-rail it there, it's a pretty neet one too, I wonder if they'll find anything down there. Maybe coal mines and factories? Lmao.

a reply to: Meee32

I too have pounded the table as nobody will even entertain LOOKING into the precession of the equinox, lets look at what Washington State has to say on the matter:

The most startling consequence of this is that the tropics (the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn, where the most northerly or southerly vertical rays of the sun strike) are MOVING TOWARD THE EQUATOR. The rate is more than 14 meters per year! Example: the government of Taiwan erected a monument in a park marking the tropic in 1908. The actual tropic is now more than a kilometer south of this location! The arctic circles are likewise travelling toward their respective poles. The temperate zones gain 1550 square kilometers of territory every year! astro.wsu.edu...

Now I recognize it's theoretical and still being studied as the model doesnt fit perfectly with 26k cycles, HOWEVER we are but one cycle within other cycles IE Solar, Galactic etc...

If I might add another view as well however : the world does not have to be used in the way we do, we are destroying a great deal of our planets ecosystems as regards forests, rivers, deserts and so on, we do need to be responsible with the Earth and attempt to live in harmony with her and each other...leaving room for Nature as we too are a part of her.

My point is Al Gore and Harry Reid (for exampl) are trying to profit off of this obviously cyclical event. Whereas Jane Goodall and John Muir are/were pointing out obvious flaws in our human character which needlessly contribute to the wiping out of not just ours, but countless other species environment.

a reply to: BlueJacket

Glacial rebound plays a huge part.

Yeah thanks for the link, interesting and I'm sure that will play it's role.

As for working with nature, sure I think we can do it, I just think it needs the right incentive... Personally I feel that should be self relience. Freedom really... There are ways we can use our human waste to make gas for cooking or heating, with a fuel cell no doubt you could make electricity from it too. Some power plants already do this. Also as a bi product you get very good fertilizer! I was always told you can't use human waste for fertilizer, well it isn't true... Of course there is a long process of breaking it all down, in that process methane is released and that is your fuel...

Of course you can also put food waste in there too, and animal waste...

This is just one thing we can do, but the point of it is to free us from corporations! We need to take back our independence, but can anyone really be bothered? Guess it's easier to keep paying the ever increasing bills.

EDIT: oops quoting went wrong there, sorry on my phone and it is quite a chore lol

a reply to: kimish

I am reading more into the subject. I am familiar to some extent, but appreciate your reminding me of the need to continue digging. My only disappointment in these discussions is that it seems folks prefer fighting about what Climate Change isn't more than digging to understand what it really is.

-On topic

I kind of fear what microbes are down there in that "virginal" 2.7 million year old soil? We are on the verge of such an amazing amount of Sci-Fi movie fodder its mind boggling!

a reply to: Meee32

We think along similar lines and I agree. Profiteering by a small number of controlling interests has always driven the wedge between personal liberty and actual philosophical understanding both scientifically as well as the obvious religious connotations. (Lol a little old dirt in Greenland spawned some interesting conversation)

originally posted by: BlueJacket
a reply to: Meee32

We think along similar lines and I agree. Profiteering by a small number of controlling interests has always driven the wedge between personal liberty and actual philosophical understanding both scientifically as well as the obvious religious connotations. (Lol a little old dirt in Greenland spawned some interesting conversation)

Yeah monopolies never turn out too good... But how do we get people to work together? What I would love to see is a group formed, the goal is to get people energy independent, totally "off grid". Maybe it could be crowd funded! Hey I know, a lottery! Imagine winning a system where you will be completely energy independent for life! Go the whole 9 yards, electric or fuel cell car the lot... Would be quite some prize! And you could give it away to multiple people every week...

It could be an awesome way to introduce the technologies to people too, create more debate and maybe even influence more innovation in the field.

I want to buy my ticket!!! Lol

EDIT: As with the charity side of things (like the loto does), maybe everyone had a wildcard entry too? So that you could win by not even buying a ticket? Or maybe low income families get a free ticket. Or perhaps disabled people get it, something like that...

Someone more organised that I, please do this... lol

a reply to: Meee32

Would be nice but JP Morgan took care of that near 100 years ago with that whole Tesla free energy thing. We are all pretty sure that those controlling monopolies will in fact discredit and kill, then besmear any memory of any potential validity of such systems in order to maintain control over the rest of us...so PAYUP or we will have to take your home mister.

originally posted by: BlueJacket
a reply to: Meee32

Would be nice but JP Morgan took care of that near 100 years ago with that whole Tesla free energy thing. We are all pretty sure that those controlling monopolies will in fact discredit and kill, then besmear any memory of any potential validity of such systems in order to maintain control over the rest of us...so PAYUP or we will have to take your home mister.

Ha well tesla was quite the man for sure, and no doubt silencing happens... But what to do then? Just give up?

EDIT: Anyone ever watch "60 minute makeover" I know it is junk reality TV but you could do something like that for the energy changeover too. I really don't see why it couldn't be done, baring jpmorgan coming to gun us down lol.


EDIT: Say I think we could do with a dedicated thread for the "Independence lottery", not sure I can make one yet. But if someone could I would love to explore the idea further, like maybe get a basic plan written up. Find out how much the technologies would costto fully off grid etc. Anyone up for doing it?

a reply to: snarky412

the very end of the article tells us that if the current climate change heat continues, the ancient ice sheet will indeed melt away this time..

I am all for treating that tundra under miles of ice as a Alien landscape or bio-sphere like Mars is
so lets not let loose any ancient microbes or bacteria which have been 'sealed off' from the Earth atmosphere for millions of years

originally posted by: St Udio
a reply to: snarky412

the very end of the article tells us that if the current climate change heat continues, the ancient ice sheet will indeed melt away this time..

I am all for treating that tundra under miles of ice as a Alien landscape or bio-sphere like Mars is
so lets not let loose any ancient microbes or bacteria which have been 'sealed off' from the Earth atmosphere for millions of years

Maybe what killed of the dinosaurs is down there? Dun dun duuuuun.... lol

a reply to: snarky412

The finding provides strong evidence that the Greenland Ice Sheet has persisted much longer than previously known, enduring through many past periods of global warming.

This stands out to me.

What this implys is that we are experiencing a natural cycle and it has nothing to do with manmade, AND we are approaching an ice age.

originally posted by: Meee32
a reply to: snarky412

But wait, there were other periods of warming and cooling? But I thought that was all our fault! Hmmmm I'm confused.... /s

Oh dear. If it confuses you then either :
A. Do some research and educate yourself about climate, earth history etc etc
B. Do no research and don't comment about something you clearly have no understanding of.

EDIT: When I've argued this before with climate alarmists at first they usually try to dismiss the ice ages etc, but when I push them they usually admit that yes there were ice ages and warm periods before our industrialism AND so therefore it IS natural. BUT now we are making it go faster! Ahaaaa I see, so how fast did it go before? And how fast is it going now? What data are you comparing to make that statement? Well..... They don't actually have an answer for that.

Climate "alarmist" now you are adding your own colourful language to add YOUR spin. Anything prior to large scale human habitation quite clearly has nothing to do with human influences. That's what you call a DUH fact!

Anything post large scale human habitation, especially industrialisation, could be influenced by ourselves. Again, without saying yeah or nay that is a a DUH fact!

So step 2 is to determine what affect humans have had on the climate when their numbers and activity was large enough to possibly affect the climate. We know for an absolute fact we can influence local conditions. So we need to do research to find out the global influence. This is what climatologists do. This is where science kicks in. The very same scientific rigueur that allows you to type your drivel on a keyboard and let people all round the world read it in a heartbeat (semiconductor science you don't deny) also allows climatologists to determine our influence (or not).

I'm not even sure you could get an accurate answer anyway, because you would need to compare various ice ages/warm periods and THIS warm period/ice age would need to be completed so we could compare... It's just impossible to prove if we are "speeding it up" and even if we were so what? It is inevitable anyway!

Again your statement highlights a massive ignorance of the scientific process and climate findings.

All the time and effort worrying about it and fighting against nature to stop it is pointless and would be much better spent on learning how to adapt with it.

Ironically enough that is where we are at now, pat yourself on the back. The oil magnates have won they are rich beyond avarice thanks to the gullible efforts of people like yourself. Well done!!

Oh i forgot, doesn't that mean that at some point it was warm enough there to support this sort of environment?

originally posted by: DietJoke
a reply to: Meee32

The argument of the climate alarmists is quite simple and it generally goes like this ...

"I chose the wrong professional line of work to specialize in and I haven't got the time or money to retrain ... SO be afraid and buy my story OR I will have to take my scientific expertise and turn it towards more profitable outcomes like building nasty new age weapons for our nations enemies!"

You should write science fiction with an imagination like that !

They'd rather we buy their story and avoid the nasty WAR business side of things to survive!

Why is that??? Oh its because so called civilized society isn't fair or equitable!

I think you'll find those who get turned on or profit from war are the same ones beating the anti GW drum. but hey, let's not let observation get in the way of a bitch fest.

originally posted by: BlueJacket
a reply to: kimish

I kind of fear what microbes are down there in that "virginal" 2.7 million year old soil? We are on the verge of such an amazing amount of Sci-Fi movie fodder its mind boggling!

BINGO! Isn't it something how the more deep holes we dig or drill, the more disease outbreaks we suffer. There are a lot of strange and stronger illnesses circulating right now. This could be the causation.