There is neither Jew nor Greek...

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

You reject the blood of Christ, therefore for you, there is no other sacrifice. I only wish you could perceive your own inconsistencies.

Believe that Jesus died for your sins and be saved or hold your peace, . . .

I don't reject the blood of Christ, just things people make up about it.
I do believe that Jesus died for the sins of the world as the Bible says.
I am saved in the biblical sense, rather than in the modern pop-culture religion sense of "saved".
You created a discussion thread and started out by saying that it is cult doctrine.
I'm just pointing out how that doesn't mesh with normal theology.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

You reject the blood of Christ, therefore for you, there is no other sacrifice. I only wish you could perceive your own inconsistencies.

Believe that Jesus died for your sins and be saved or hold your peace, . . .

I don't reject the blood of Christ, just things people make up about it.
I do believe that Jesus died for the sins of the world as the Bible says.
I am saved in the biblical sense, rather than in the modern pop-culture religion sense of "saved".
You created a discussion thread and started out by saying that it is cult doctrine.
I'm just pointing out how that doesn't mesh with normal theology.

It may be "normal" to you. What does it mean to be "saved" in the Biblical sense? You have to understand that there is a Greek mythology and understanding of what it means that is different than the Jewish perspective.

And what Believerpriest is saying is that in God's eyes, there is no Greek or Jew because both are equal. But don't you find it interesting that Paul says "Greek" and "Jew" as two individual groups? Why didn't he just say one group and leave it at that?

Do you suppose it had anything to do with Greeks who still followed and infused Greek mythology to make it mesh with a thousand years of Jewish scripture and literature? I hope you understand that Zeus and Yaweh are two different gods.

The God that Paul preached to the men of Athens was "The Unknown God" to the Greeks. Who is this unknown God that Paul was talking about, that wasn't Greek?

a reply to: WarminIndy

And now that you have rejected the Jewish messiah and grabbed a Greek one

Some pretty weird pseudo logic to arrive at that conclusion.
I'm guessing that you didn't look up oracles in a Bible commentary but instead went to Google and found something completely unrelated.

a reply to: WarminIndy

And what Believerpriest is saying is that in God's eyes, there is no Greek or Jew because both are equal.

Separate but equal, with one having priority over the other.
I don't think that was what Paul meant when he said that there is neither Jew or Gentile.
He meant that everyone is on a level playing field with no distinction.

Do you suppose it had anything to do with Greeks who still followed and infused Greek mythology to make it mesh with a thousand years of Jewish scripture and literature?

No.
It may have to do with Greeks feeling superior to non Greeks who they considered barbarians.
The same sort of attitude Jews have, that non Jews are gentiles.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: WarminIndy

And now that you have rejected the Jewish messiah and grabbed a Greek one

Some pretty weird pseudo logic to arrive at that conclusion.
I'm guessing that you didn't look up oracles in a Bible commentary but instead went to Google and found something completely unrelated.

No, jmdewey, these are things I already knew. I do read history and comparative religions and have for a very long time. It seems from what you read and what I have known for a long time, we have reached two different conclusions. But don't ever assume that because you are well-read in one thing that someone else is not well-read in a lot of other things.

But given that you haven't received the Jewish identity of the Jewish messiah because you fail to recognize the Jewish identity of ancient scriptures much older than the commentaries and writings of Augustine, then I am going to have to conclude one thing, that through struggling to maintain Greek identity and complete Greek authorship, you have presented to us Greek mythology in the guise of Christianity by calling it normal.

But let me explain a simple thing that you need to understand. Before Augustine took over, there was a group of Jewish Christians who felt it appropriate to still connect to Jewish identity. You might call me a Judaizer, but I am not saying you must keep the circumcision to be Christian and that's what the original argument was over.

As you say the law is no longer in effect, what you are referring to is the Judaizers who believed that one must be circumcised and that's where the entire argument stems from. If you read it, you would know that. What I am saying is this, even Paul says that you have no right to tell me what days I regard and what meats or drinks I choose to eat and I have no right to tell you that. But on the other hand, nowhere does Paul ever remove Jewish identity from Jesus, ever. Jesus was, to Paul, the Jewish messiah. Simple and plain.

If Jesus IS the Jewish messiah, then what does that mean for us today? Have we evolved so much that we can no longer hear the words Jesus spoke and who He spoke to? But here's a little spiritual lesson, the words Jesus are eternal and for all people for all times. That means they are for you and me today and if you haven't learned that Jesus is alive and well, still speaking to us then maybe you might ask yourself who you are listening to.

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word which proceeds out of the mouth of God". Since when does God no longer speak to people who worship in Spirit and in truth? God is not silent to those who are listening. We hear Him. "God speaks in the still small voice" and "Let all the earth be silent, for God is risen up in His holy temple" and "Be still and KNOW that I am God".

Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee.

a reply to: WarminIndy

But given that you haven't received the Jewish identity of the Jewish messiah because you fail to recognize the Jewish identity of ancient scriptures much older than the commentaries and writings of Augustine . . .

I do notice that you have a tendency to post complete fabrications of what I supposedly think.

. . . then I am going to have to conclude one thing, that through struggling to maintain Greek identity and complete Greek authorship, you have presented to us Greek mythology in the guise of Christianity by calling it normal.

This is a good example of what I was calling pseudo-logic.

Before Augustine took over, there was a group of Jewish Christians who felt it appropriate to still connect to Jewish identity.

That would have been at least a couple hundred years before Augustine. When there we people who lived at the time of Jesus' crucifixion.

You might call me a Judaizer, but I am not saying you must keep the circumcision to be Christian and that's what the original argument was over.

Wasn't it you just a couple days ago on another thread who said that I wasn't a Christian because I didn't keep a Jewish Passover?

As you say the law is no longer in effect, what you are referring to is the Judaizers who believed that one must be circumcised and that's where the entire argument stems from. If you read it, you would know that.

Paul also said that if you try to keep part of the Law, then you have to keep all of it.

What I am saying is this, even Paul says that you have no right to tell me what days I regard and what meats or drinks I choose to eat and I have no right to tell you that.

If you remember, it was you telling me what day I need to keep, not the other way around.

But on the other hand, nowhere does Paul ever remove Jewish identity from Jesus, ever. Jesus was, to Paul, the Jewish messiah. Simple and plain.

And . . so?

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: WarminIndy

But given that you haven't received the Jewish identity of the Jewish messiah because you fail to recognize the Jewish identity of ancient scriptures much older than the commentaries and writings of Augustine . . .

I do notice that you have a tendency to post complete fabrications of what I supposedly think.

. . . then I am going to have to conclude one thing, that through struggling to maintain Greek identity and complete Greek authorship, you have presented to us Greek mythology in the guise of Christianity by calling it normal.

This is a good example of what I was calling pseudo-logic.

Before Augustine took over, there was a group of Jewish Christians who felt it appropriate to still connect to Jewish identity.

That would have been at least a couple hundred years before Augustine. When there we people who lived at the time of Jesus' crucifixion.

You might call me a Judaizer, but I am not saying you must keep the circumcision to be Christian and that's what the original argument was over.

Wasn't it you just a couple days ago on another thread who said that I wasn't a Christian because I didn't keep a Jewish Passover?

As you say the law is no longer in effect, what you are referring to is the Judaizers who believed that one must be circumcised and that's where the entire argument stems from. If you read it, you would know that.

Paul also said that if you try to keep part of the Law, then you have to keep all of it.

What I am saying is this, even Paul says that you have no right to tell me what days I regard and what meats or drinks I choose to eat and I have no right to tell you that.

If you remember, it was you telling me what day I need to keep, not the other way around.

But on the other hand, nowhere does Paul ever remove Jewish identity from Jesus, ever. Jesus was, to Paul, the Jewish messiah. Simple and plain.

And . . so?

Absolutely not did I say you weren't a Christian for not keeping Passover. What I said was that you DO keep Passover because you take Communion, because the Christian Communion is in the third cup during the Seder.

I don't know if you take Communion or not.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Absolutely not did I say you weren't a Christian for not keeping Passover.

Not in those words, no.
But by implication you did, by presenting steps of logic, you claim I am actually a worshiper of Dionysus.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

What I said was that you DO keep Passover because you take Communion, because the Christian Communion is in the third cup during the Seder.

That was part of your post.
Then you added later that not accepting your claimed connection nullifies the action and transforms it into a worship of the Greek gods.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I don't know if you take Communion or not.

Seventh Day Adventists celebrate communion. I am a member of my local congregation and participate in taking of the emblems of the bread and wine.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: WarminIndy

Absolutely not did I say you weren't a Christian for not keeping Passover.

Not in those words, no.
But by implication you did, by presenting steps of logic, you claim I am actually a worshiper of Dionysus.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

What I said was that you DO keep Passover because you take Communion, because the Christian Communion is in the third cup during the Seder.

That was part of your post.
Then you added later that not accepting your claimed connection nullifies the action and transforms it into a worship of the Greek gods.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I don't know if you take Communion or not.

Seventh Day Adventists celebrate communion. I am a member of my local congregation and participate in taking of the emblems of the bread and wine.

Oh, you are a Seventh Day Adventist.

You didn't have to say any more than that. So you keep Sabbath on Saturday, just like the Jews? But some of the things you say sound nothing like Seventh Day Adventists.

a reply to: WarminIndy

So you keep Sabbath on Saturday, just like the Jews?

That is because the Jews believe in the Ten Commandments too.

But some of the things you say sound nothing like Seventh Day Adventists.

I don't share in the enthusiasm that a lot of Adventists have for Jesus coming soon to "destroy the wicked".

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: WarminIndy

So you keep Sabbath on Saturday, just like the Jews?

That is because the Jews believe in the Ten Commandments too.

But some of the things you say sound nothing like Seventh Day Adventists.

I don't share in the enthusiasm that a lot of Adventists have for Jesus coming soon to "destroy the wicked".

And then aren't you debtor to the whole law now that you keep the Sabbath on Saturday?

You just told us in several posts that by keeping one law you are debtor to the whole law. This God is your God, you are going to have no other gods before this God, don't make any graven images, don't take the name in vain, don't kill, don't dishonor your parents, don't commit adultery, no bearing false witness, don't steal and don't covet.

In the commandment of I AM the Lord thy God...that's Yaweh, the God That IS, the I AM. If you are a Sabbath keeper, then you have to worship Yaweh and if this God, who you are a debtor to now through the keeping of Sabbath, then you are at some point going to have to accept every word THIS GOD says.

a reply to: WarminIndy

And then aren't you debtor to the whole law now that you keep the Sabbath on Saturday?

No because it existed before Moses, according to our belief and so is not dependent on that set of laws from Moses.
The idea is that Adam and Eve kept the Sabbath.

You just told us in several posts that by keeping one law you are debtor to the whole law. This God is your God, you are going to have no other gods before this God, don't make any graven images, don't take the name in vain, don't kill, don't dishonor your parents, don't commit adultery, no bearing false witness, don't steal and don't covet.

All that came directly from God, and not Moses, remember? Coming in this great voice from the smoke and fire on the top of the mountain.

. . . then you are at some point going to have to accept every word THIS GOD says.

No because Jesus is the I Am, and we follow him, not what someone wrote about those wicked people from Egypt.
They were hard hearted, as Jesus said.
We have the spirit that makes us kind hearted and do what is right without a bunch of man made regimentation.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: WarminIndy

And then aren't you debtor to the whole law now that you keep the Sabbath on Saturday?

No because it existed before Moses, according to our belief and so is not dependent on that set of laws from Moses.
The idea is that Adam and Eve kept the Sabbath.

You just told us in several posts that by keeping one law you are debtor to the whole law. This God is your God, you are going to have no other gods before this God, don't make any graven images, don't take the name in vain, don't kill, don't dishonor your parents, don't commit adultery, no bearing false witness, don't steal and don't covet.

All that came directly from God, and not Moses, remember? Coming in this great voice from the smoke and fire on the top of the mountain.

. . . then you are at some point going to have to accept every word THIS GOD says.

No because Jesus is the I Am, and we follow him, not what someone wrote about those wicked people from Egypt.
They were hard hearted, as Jesus said.
We have the spirit that makes us kind hearted and do what is right without a bunch of man made regimentation.

OK so you are a Oneness Seventh Day Adventist.

You have the freedom of religious expression. But for future reference, it would be nice if you continued to say "In our tradition" meaning the Millerite tradition. But if you say that all of Christianity agrees with you because it's "normal" Christianity, then that is wrong. Don't misrepresent what the rest of us believe.

And Jesus is the Son, not the Father. It was the I AM who said it. But this is a new one on me, a Oneness Seventh Day Adventist.

a reply to: WarminIndy

But for future reference, it would be nice if you continued to say "In our tradition" meaning the Millerite tradition.

That's just silly to think that I'm on here promoting denominational doctrine.
You asked me if I take communion, which I do, at church, the one that I am a member of, and it is done a certain way, which is what I said, that the bread and wine are emblems, and not literally blood and flesh.
You asked me how denominational doctrine affects my relationship with the Law of Moses, and I replied that it doesn't.
Otherwise the opinions that I express on this forum are my own and do not represent Adventist teachings.

a reply to: WarminIndy

But if you say that all of Christianity agrees with you because it's "normal" Christianity, then that is wrong. Don't misrepresent what the rest of us believe.

Obviously all Christianity couldn't agree with any one person.
There is though a such thing as normative Christianity.
I don't think yours fits in that category since most English speaking people call Jesus, "Jesus".
Dispensationalism, which this thread was started to support is a cult, and not normal Christianity.

And Jesus is the Son, not the Father. It was the I AM who said it. But this is a new one on me, a Oneness Seventh Day Adventist.

In my opinion, everything that we know about God comes from our knowledge of Jesus.
Jesus is the name of God, meaning he represents God's character.
An angel appeared to Moses in a burning bush to represent God, and to speak for Him.
Jesus speaks for God now and takes that title of I Am for himself.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: WarminIndy

But if you say that all of Christianity agrees with you because it's "normal" Christianity, then that is wrong. Don't misrepresent what the rest of us believe.

Obviously all Christianity couldn't agree with any one person.
There is though a such thing as normative Christianity.
I don't think yours fits in that category since most English speaking people call Jesus, "Jesus".
Dispensationalism, which this thread was started to support is a cult, and not normal Christianity.

And Jesus is the Son, not the Father. It was the I AM who said it. But this is a new one on me, a Oneness Seventh Day Adventist.

In my opinion, everything that we know about God comes from our knowledge of Jesus.
Jesus is the name of God, meaning he represents God's character.
An angel appeared to Moses in a burning bush to represent God, and to speak for Him.
Jesus speaks for God now and takes that title of I Am for himself.

So Ellen G. White has a normative Christianity?

Good that you are now saying it is your opinion. But I have to ask, as I would anyone else, which god does Jesus represent?

a reply to: WarminIndy

So Ellen G. White has a normative Christianity?

For the time and place where she came out of, yes.
I realize some people try to represent her as being weird but she wasn't someone like Joseph Smith, trying to start a whole new religion.
I think most New England Christians and the old Southern Christians probably too, believed in a Sabbath that is based on the Ten Commandments, just that to them it meant Sunday.

Good that you are now saying it is your opinion.

In the sense that I am not promoting here any specifically denominational doctrines.

But I have to ask, as I would anyone else, which god does Jesus represent?

The Christian God, which is the only real god.
There isn't somehow another god that I could alternatively believe in, even if someone, for example the Jews, thought theirs was a different god. I think that would be just their opinion, which in my opinion would be wrong.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: WarminIndy

So Ellen G. White has a normative Christianity?

For the time and place where she came out of, yes.
I realize some people try to represent her as being weird but she wasn't someone like Joseph Smith, trying to start a whole new religion.
I think most New England Christians and the old Southern Christians probably too, believed in a Sabbath that is based on the Ten Commandments, just that to them it meant Sunday.

Good that you are now saying it is your opinion.

In the sense that I am not promoting here any specifically denominational doctrines.

But I have to ask, as I would anyone else, which god does Jesus represent?

The Christian God, which is the only real god.
There isn't somehow another god that I could alternatively believe in, even if someone, for example the Jews, thought theirs was a different god. I think that would be just their opinion, which in my opinion would be wrong.

By saying "the Christian God" can be any god. The Jews accept that we have the same God, Yaweh, only they call Him HaShem, which simply means "The Name".

They actually think Christians are crazy when Christians don't realize we have the same god. But as far as you know, then Allah could be god also because Mohammed said so. As far as you know, Zeus could be god also.

When the Christian god, as you call Him, can have attributes, actions, personality and characteristics and identity from the Greek gods, then how do you know it isn't Zeus?

Zeus : "Father of Gods and men" also called *Dyeus phatēr ("Sky Father") and this is why those who follow Paganism do find correlations between what some Christians are saying about the god they follow, because those Christians don't realize that when Greek identity is placed onto the God of the Bible, then defended as such, then the only reasonable assumption is Zeus and Dionysus.

Sure, the God of "Christians" can be any god, just insert name here. But would you accept that Brahma is also the God of "Christians"? Without a name, God could be anyone.

a reply to: WarminIndy

By saying "the Christian God" can be any god.

Only Christians know God because He is revealed through Jesus.
Jesus told the High Priests and the teachers of the Law that they did not know God.

Sure, the God of "Christians" can be any god, just insert name here.

Jesus is God's name.

These should do the trick

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Phillippians3

Jesus asked them,Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?Matthew22

There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.Hebrews4

I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10

and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Revelation3

And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.