11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
It seems that Romans 11:11-24 directly contradicts Replacement Theology.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: benrl
It seems that this theological error drives a wedge in the Church. How can we recognize what time it is on the prophetic clock if we continue in identity confusion?
You have yet to point out this supposed error.
It seems that this theological error drives a wedge in the Church.
It's just a hypothetical, to make a point, he isn't suggesting that such a thing will happen.
It seems here that Paul has not dismissed the possibility of Israel's repentance.
He wasn't saying anything about covenants.
If Israel's covenant had truely been cancelled, then Paul would not raise the issue of Israel being "regrafted" into the tree. He wouldnt have refered to them being regrafted as a separate group if Israel were to be 'homogenized' into the Church. Paul is recognizing the distinction in covenants.
Paul discusses this in Galatians 4 with the analogy of the two sons of Abraham.
. . . Christians are spiritual brothers of Christ which makes us sons of God, not the firstborn (who has the rights) but sons none the less.
OK, then what is that misunderstanding?
The Jewish people have a clear place in Biblical prophesy, most of the theology that seeks to remove that, stem from a fundamental misunderstanding.
I refuted the only scriptural support presented for your claim, which was quoting Romans 11:1-24, then saying that you thought it seemed like Paul must have implied by his wording that the two people had two covenants.
You have yet to show scriptural support for the claims against the Children of Israel.
There isn't any such thing, and that is just a made up term.
All believers are bound by the messianic covenant, . . . .
There is really just one covenant.
but there also exists sub-covenants.
That was Paul speaking metaphorically. Jesus actually used the word church, which is the congregation.
The Church is the body of Christ.
Israel came later, and became a national designation under Moses and what the covenant was there was an agreement to keep the Law.
Israel, on the other hand, belongs to the Abrahamic Covenant.
This was a promise of eternal life before there was really that concept to support it, so it reverts to a concrete description to put the point across.
God promised Abraham that his genetic seed would inherit the land eternally.
We understand who God is now through Jesus.
God will not go back on His promise.
originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: jmdewey60
All believers are bound by the messianic covenant, but there aslo exist sub-covenants. The Church is the body of Chist. Israel, on the other hand, belongs to the Abrahamic Covenant. God promised Abraham that his genetic seed would inheret the land eternally. God will not go back on His promise.
Isaiah 50:1 Thus saith the Lord, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the Lord.
11 And the Lord said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the Lord; and I willbnot cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever
13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord.
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
That's a metaphor.
jmDewey, unless the church is Israel or Judah, then who is God married to? And where is Israel and Judah to be reunited? Zion.
There were things written in the Prophets about a united kingdom, but it is more like just a note of encouragement, oracles of things that might be, rather than an actual announcement of things that must happen.
And where is Israel and Judah to be reunited? Zion.