Bundy Ranch Conspiracy Debunked

stormcell
So, the activists must work closely with the politicians and the federal and state agencies to make it too expensive for the ranchers to stay in business — force them into bankruptcy.

You know, if they ever succeed at that plan, and make it near impossible to buy meat at the store, I hope they realize the activists and politicians will be first on the menu.

I hate to sidetrack or derail but I can't hold it in on the Bundy Ranch deal anymore.

Call me slow on the uptake but as I grow older I realize there are many (to include here on ATS) who cannot think past one cause = one affect. The minute an issue becomes multi-faceted or more complex than one to one, they retreat to dismissing all discussion on the matter as conspiracy chatter or completely untrue.

NO ONE is really arguing the BLM permit issue. Well, maybe a few but that is not the heart of the matter here.

The Federal response is a big issue here. When it happened and how it happened.

The deep involvement of Congressmen on such minutia is an issue here.

The use/misuse of "public land" is an issue here.

In the context of many other incidents of Federal over reach, this is an issue.

The MSM portraying this a dog-bites-man is an issue.

This to just name a few. Sorry to side step.

a reply to: ABNARTY

Exactly ABNARTY STARS for that! The bigger issue is the great impact this over reach by the Feds will have on you and me! This is the beginning people! Not of a revolution but of a government seizure on our rights, our freedoms, our property and possessions!! This is an attempt at undermining your individuality and your choices as an agent of FREE will!

This is the Government moving towards ultimate contro,l not necessarily for money but for personal gain and power in the infrastructure of the globe. My deep opinion, this is the push over the cliff to bring our nation to its knees!

Yes, its about one man and his cows and so claimed government property that he will not pay grazing fees on! NO! No! No! Stop and think about it! If the feds used this much force on one man and his cattle what will they do to all of us when we face a similar yet bigger situation! Which begs the question why the Dept. of Homeland Security just bought thousands and thousands of armor piercing bullets!!!

Whatever your opinion of Cliven Bundy is, Left, Right or middle, do not let that distract from the intent of the Gov.
They love it when we fight when we blame and point fingers at each other! They did not expect the few that gathered together, to fight for someone else! It totally caught them off guard.

Remember this!!
" A House Divided Will Not Stand"
"A House UNITED Will Not Fall!!!!

Thanks Pax

a reply to: paxnatus

Thanks paxnatus

It's the trajectory you outline so many seem to deny? Miss? Afraid of? IDK

I sure am not comfortable with it though.

The "debunked" parts might get rejuvenated when it comes out that a brand new solar/wind project might be in preliminary stages.

A project that would allow the Gold Butte area to be used again as the "catch basket" for the environmental impacts caused by new installations right on the border areas of the Gold Butte National Conservation Area !!

Or even inside it.

All highly speculative and conspiratorial of course because only a conspiracy by the ones who profit can make it possible.

[ crosses fingers behind back ]

Christ. If you're serious about all of this then why don't you folks just get it over with and attack the federal government already. The whole goddamn thing will be over by dinner and the rest of us can go about our lives without all these threats of revolution and whatever coming from the "alternative media". I have a good friend whose husband is all freaked out (like a lot of people, he's getting dumber as he gets older) that the country is going to devolve into civil war. I try to explain to him that a civil war would last 20 minutes now days, but he's still terrified of militia bands roaming the neighborhoods. The truth is that you know and I know that all of this horsesh*t is playtime and nothing more than that. You guys aren't going to ever raise a hand against this nation. Hell, if you did, your job, your family, your future, would immediately dissolve into a few days of complete mayhem and then you'd be either dead or in prison forever. You know and we all know it, so what the hell is the point in pretending to be a dissident revolutionary?

I understand that for those of you who don't get into sports you still need the home team versus the rival team drama and excitement. I know that politics is a nerd sport and all, but some people just don't see the fun in all of this, and they think you kids are serious about getting slaughtered by the most aggressive and thorough military machine that the world has ever known, over something (freedom) that you can't even adequately define. I do what I can to explain to folks like my friend's husband that it's all just another version of "championship wrestling" but dumb crap like this "Bundy Ranch and its fat dough boys pretending to be big and bad" situation isn't helping.

I know that it's about getting money from political nerds, but some folks just take it all serious, and those poor folks are suffering as a result of the playdates you kids are having. It's not good to make life so tough for those people who just aren't as bright as the rest of us. Seriously. Think of the idiots sometimes, and dial it down a notch.

originally posted by: paxnatus

Yes, its about one man and his cows and so claimed government property that he will not pay grazing fees on! NO! No! No! Stop and think about it! If the feds used this much force on one man and his cattle what will they do to all of us when we face a similar yet bigger situation!

What force? The guy's walking around like he swinging 10 pounds of man-meat after his "clash" with the federal government. Believe me. This federal government can obliterate any nation on earth in a weekend. Bundy and the fatboys would take less than 5 minutes to vaporize if the feds really wanted to use force. They're definitely allowing that idiot all the rope in the world, and for the last 20 years no less.

Remember this!!
" A House Divided Will Not Stand"
"A House UNITED Will Not Fall!!!!

Thanks Pax

Are you trying to get elected student council president with that dumb sh*t? WTF?

Try taking a deep breath and maybe you won't come across so much like a hysterical 12 yr old girl.

a reply to: NorEaster

You talk a big game. You should post your address on here and see if all theese people are all talk.

Yeah!! It's debunked alright!!

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: NorEaster

You talk a big game. You should post your address on here and see if all theese people are all talk.

What'er you, in middle school?

"oooo, we gonna come an git ye".

Christ.

originally posted by: paxnatus
Yeah!! It's debunked alright!!

It's too bad that you kids have modems that drain your passion for change into sophomoric Internet forum drivel. Maybe if you stopped posting and started actually doing something about the stuff you see that you hate ....

Screw it. Yours is a virtual world. It exists in your imagination.

a reply to: NorEaster

So everyone is supposed to pander to the coward idiots out there?

a reply to: Mamatus

I don't disagree with the findings. Their are simple facts that wouldn't require THIS much investigation:
1. Solar Farms require easy access to power lines (there is a length limit) OR easy access to a substation.
2. Golden Butte is in BFE Nevada and most likely doesn't have easy access to either.

Regardless, there are some strange timelines regarding this:
1. 1993 stopped paying fees
2. 1998 court order for Mr. Bundy to remove his cattle
3. 2013 new court order to remove cattle
4. 2014 actual removal of cattle, protests/stand-off

Now, why didn't they remove his cattle prior to 2014? You know AFTER the original 1998 ruling? Really??? It took them 16 years and a 2nd court order to finally start the process of removing cattle?

Something is a little odd about the presented timeline. I feel something is missing. (It may not be, but s#!t doesn't add up.)

I started to post this earlier, but needed to check something...

originally posted by: xuenchen
The "debunked" parts might get rejuvenated when it comes out that a brand new solar/wind project might be in preliminary stages.

A project that would allow the Gold Butte area to be used again as the "catch basket" for the environmental impacts caused by new installations right on the border areas of the Gold Butte National Conservation Area !!

Or even inside it.

All highly speculative and conspiratorial of course because only a conspiracy by the ones who profit can make it possible.

[ crosses fingers behind back ]

You are right that a new solar project IS a possibility for the future as the BLM seems to be going ahead with the original plan as far as designation of land use in that area of NV, even though the deal with the Chinese company fell through.

The BLM's legal mandate is that they MUST compensate for environmental impacts on ANY land that is used by a private business. So, let's say there was oil underneath that land and BLM wanted to lease the land to a company to extract it, then they would also have to not only charge fees to minimize environmental impact on the area of the oil field, but also add protected lands to "mitigate" the "cost" to the public land (i.e. maintain conservation efforts) - this prevents public land from solely being used for resource extraction vs. protection of the environment - AND visa versa.

Who would be "behind" a new solar company lease of that land, which has been identified for that use? I don't know. Could it be Harry Reid? No clue. Someone else? Possibly. Again, we just don't know. It may not even be "in the works" yet, but they are managing the land to make it easy to move in that direction. Would it help people by lowering energy costs to have the solar array? I don't know. Would it prevent more environmentally harmful means of producing energy in the area to have the solar array? Again - a good question, no?

Whether or not one agrees with using some of Nevada for a Solar Company to put up an array for energy creation (and possibly create some jobs/tax revenue for Nevada?), the way the law is written is that this use must be offset.

Is it right and just to take land away from cattle grazing/ranching to mitigate a resource extraction on public lands? Is it right to impact the business interest of ranchers in order to mitigate for the business interest of a resource extraction company? That is a very emotionally charged question. It may be legal, but it sure as heck isn't pretty.

Where I grew up, ranchers and families like Clive Bundy's, but who owned deeded property (not leased) would be run off by huge tax liens based on what the land would be worth if they sold it to a developer - it destroyed many family ranches and was done at the county level - bad dealings and bad feelings all around.

My own family, on a very small level, dealt with local political chicanery in regards to water rights and a small pond on our property. The county was siding with the developers all the way, thinking of all that sweet sweet tax revenue. Luckily, my Dad fought tooth and nail, and while he didn't win the battle he wanted to, he did manage to keep his pond from being ruined by the developers.

So, I don't think the potential for a solar company moving in to the originally designated area automatically makes for a conspiracy - in fact, its more like business as usual for the BLM and all concerned, and I wouldn't doubt connected people, like elected officials, are often aware of and able to take advantage of their connections to bring in businesses to these Federal lands (or to pressure landowners in other ways as mentioned). I'm guessing a good look at the history of land use would put Business (especially energy/mineral extraction companies and land developers) up against individuals/property owners all the time.

Look for that pattern, and you will see it everywhere = with public and private lands, on the local and Federal level.

peace,
AB

originally posted by: WCmutant
a reply to: Mamatus

I don't disagree with the findings. Their are simple facts that wouldn't require THIS much investigation:
1. Solar Farms require easy access to power lines (there is a length limit) OR easy access to a substation.
2. Golden Butte is in BFE Nevada and most likely doesn't have easy access to either.

Regardless, there are some strange timelines regarding this:
1. 1993 stopped paying fees
2. 1998 court order for Mr. Bundy to remove his cattle
3. 2013 new court order to remove cattle
4. 2014 actual removal of cattle, protests/stand-off

Now, why didn't they remove his cattle prior to 2014? You know AFTER the original 1998 ruling? Really??? It took them 16 years and a 2nd court order to finally start the process of removing cattle?

Something is a little odd about the presented timeline. I feel something is missing. (It may not be, but s#!t doesn't add up.)

I think I might be able to help with that seeming gap in timelines. Having watched my mother-in-law go through a condemnation and basically a confiscation of property for the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area, I can tell you that during those long periods when nothing was happening on the timeline---the lawyers were still getting paid. The government had half a dozen I'd guess. The civilian had one, maybe two. Each time another motion is filed, the government lawyers, after taking the maximum allowable time, ask for continuances and file three more motions. The Delaware project was first mentioned in the early '70s, just a ripple among the folks who summered along the Delaware as well as the people living there. There was a lot of talk of building a dam to generate electricity at the time but the folks didn't like that idea and got it off the table and breathed a sigh of relief thinking their homes and land was safe from the land grabbers.
But the land grabbers weren't done. In the late '70s it was announced that rather than a dam they would create a National Recreational Area, taking all the private land and turning it into public land. They would be purchasing the land from "willing buyers."
A whole bunch of the landowners didn't want to give up their land, they had enjoyed the river for generations. They hired lawyers again and tried to fight. One of the attorneys who workedpro bono for them was Abbie Hoffman. That fight went on until 1988. But long before the government just sent a check to each property owner with an order of the court saying they must accept it, they had blocked access to the land by cutting trees to block roads. It was low down and dirty, between the Corps of Engineers and the National Park Service, they had 27 lawyers. The landowner's association had half a dozen. They lost.
My husband's family spent many happy summers there, a great summer place where they could be kids. My mother-in-law returned there in summers after she retired and renewed many old friendships and made many new ones. She intended to pass that land down to her grandchildren so they could enjoy the river's delights. But if her grandchildren want to go there, they must rent a boat from the marina, they must get a pass to see the land that their grandfather saved for while working as a welder in the shipyards of New York during WWII. And under no circumstances can they camp where their grandparents spent many happy months.
So the gaps you see in the timeline are when the motions were going back and forth, the attempts to grind down the opposition in hopes they will spend every dime and give up or it can be dragged out until the owners die.
If you've never been involved in one of these "fight the government" battles, you really can't imagine the time, effort and energy that goes into it.

originally posted by: NorEaster
This federal government can obliterate any nation on earth in a weekend.

Like we did in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan? The notion that we can steamroll any opponent without implementing a total war strategy where civilian collateral is ignored is seriously flawed.

originally posted by: NorEaster

originally posted by: paxnatus

Yes, its about one man and his cows and so claimed government property that he will not pay grazing fees on! NO! No! No! Stop and think about it! If the feds used this much force on one man and his cattle what will they do to all of us when we face a similar yet bigger situation!

What force? The guy's walking around like he swinging 10 pounds of man-meat after his "clash" with the federal government. Believe me. This federal government can obliterate any nation on earth in a weekend. Bundy and the fatboys would take less than 5 minutes to vaporize if the feds really wanted to use force. They're definitely allowing that idiot all the rope in the world, and for the last 20 years no less.

Remember this!!
" A House Divided Will Not Stand"
"A House UNITED Will Not Fall!!!!

Thanks Pax

Are you trying to get elected student council president with that dumb sh*t? WTF?

Try taking a deep breath and maybe you won't come across so much like a hysterical 12 yr old girl.

I am sick to death of your rhetorical vitriolic monologues! You have not one thing intelligent to add so you stoop to elementary style personal attacks! You have not said an intelligent thing this entire thread! If you cannot stick to the topic without attacking people then perhaps you should move on! I don't waste my time arguing with illiterates or Blow Hards Mr. Nor Easter!

a reply to: NorEaster

 if you stopped posting and started actually doing something about the stuff you see that you hate

You mean kind of like this! Operation Truth: Toxic Rain Reality Check Testing 

Put your money where your mouth is Nor! I gave this my best shot, guess it's your turn now!

Pax

As I have been following the events of what's happening in Nevada with Mr. Bundy I have voiced my support for Bundy and his supporters here on ATS, on FB and in real time conversations with friends and loved ones. What I have found is that others were making points that in all good faith I had to consider in more depth. This ultimately lead me down the path of WTH is Agenda 21 exactly and how and if this whole mess in Nevada might be connected?1?

After all what's wrong with "Sustainable Development" ? Is the land better used to build a solar plant then to graze cows?
Now my brain really hurts and I discover that I'm not informed enough to discuss the issue and now I'm doubting my convictions......then I come across this lecture by John Anthony that really cleared up much of my confusion and reinforced my support and respect for the stand Bundy and his supporters took......this is not an isolated case. What kind of World and Country do we want to live in?

I'm linking this lecture which is long, but so well done and informative.... and WORTH WATCHING ! Hope to discuss this further with those of you that may watch it.