When is it okay to revolt, or "Why I should just shut up now"!

reply to post by Darkblade71

It will take something like that to trigger off any changes that millions are willing to stand up to the Government over.

Nobody's shot back at the government ... yet.

The minute the people see agents of the government crumble and fall on national TV is the minute it all changes. Right now the people are cowed. They're too afraid to be the first guy to pull the trigger. They're afraid of the guy's reaction next to him. ... But once it starts, there'll be no stopping it.

This will be a sad day for sure. People aren't going to talk to one another like we do here. There won't be any free exchange of dialogue. There won't be any tolerance of a difference in skin color or even an accent. If you're different or disagree ... you'll be dealt with. SSDD ... it's played itself out more than a couple of times. The guys with the most guns and the will to do the most violence are going to come out on top. The pacifists will learn to do what is expected of them.

Everybody better pray the Department of Defense doesn't pick a side.

beezzer
Many threads on Bundy Ranch/Militia/Government/Reid.
I bet it keeping folks real busy.

And I'm not talking about the mods.

There is an element of our government that sees many Americans as the enemy.
There is an element of the population that sees government as the enemy.

I have had the oppourtunity to see both sides debate on ATS.

I imagine that things are going to come to a head soon. People are going to have to pick sides.

I also wonder how safe ATS will be.

I try to imagine an ATS during the Civil War. Would Lincoln have spies on ATS driving discussion, collecting data, collecting names?
Would Jefferson Davis be doing the same?

When is it going to be time to fight?

When is it going to be time to shut up about it and just do it?

Would be kind of silly to post what you're going to do, letting everyone know.

Or is ATS going to be neutral ground, like Switzerland. During the next revolt, will our European members be logging in to view how the war is going?


. . . . . . . ramblings of a tired little bunny. . . . . .

What is the ridiculous obsession people have with calling for an armed revolt? What percentage of the American population do you imagine has come to believe that there's no recourse left to the people but to take up arms against the government? I bet it's an underwhelming minority, mostly composed of the same sort of people who spend far too much time listening to wingnuts like Alex Jones. So that would be my first question: Under what mandate do these would be revolutionaries operate?

My next question would be: What change do you think these self-appointed freedom fighters would bring about that justifies the damage done? We're not 13 colonies with a population of 2.5 million people fighting for self-governance against a king. You're talking about usurping people that were fairly and democratically elected. You don't need bullets for that, you need votes. If you examine the revolutions of the 20th century, the majority of them ended poorly for the people when some former revolutionary leader became a dictator -- A REAL DICTATOR -- not the BS hyperbole that has become common place among the far right. I'm talking hundreds of thousands maybe even tens of millions of people hauled off in the night and tortured to death or shot in the street. You think being forced to purchase health insurance is oppression? #firstworldproblems

Even under optimal circumstances, what do you expect the future to hold if not more of the same? Once the dust settles, at BEST it would be just business as usual. Sure, I get it, when I kid and I watched Red Dawn for the first time, I had dreams of banding together with my best friends and forming an armed insurgency against an invading force of communists. I get it, being a revolutionary is romantic notion, but talking earnestly about revolution under the circumstances we find ourselves in now is tantamount to spitting on the graves of real revolutionaries with real problems and no other options.

duplicate post

duplicate post.

duplicate post... now this is just embarrassing!

reply to post by theantediluvian


None of the bureaucrats in the government are fairly or freely elected by the people. Those are the people who were standing off against the people in Nevada. Those people owe loyalty only to their next paycheck which comes from taxes paid for by the very people they were out there abusing.

There are so many laws on the books now that none of us can go through the day without breaking one, and if they choose, those bureaucrats can come for you.

No armed conflict / civil war for me, thanks.

People get angry at different things, perceive "truth" to be the opposite from each other, and what is "right" and "Just" gets lost in the clash of entrenched viewpoints. We see that here on ATS quite a bit.

No, respectfully, Mr. Bezzer, sir, I am not one to advocate violence. With war comes starving children, loss of life and limb, wounds of the soul that never heal, rape, torture, ugliness upon devastated ugliness, far outweighing the current circumstances we face: that is the core of it.

So, no, before anyone starts picking up guns and building up the barricades, I strongly urge them to see how things have been changed in the past by non-violent means. Power does not have to equal violence, and change is inevitable. I may not like the change you want, but I stand by your right to advocate for it (peacefully).

peace,
AB

DrumsRfun
reply to post by beezzer

 

Americans...you are failing us and yourselves.

So yes....WHEN is anybody going to do anything????

That begs the question. Given that we are speaking very broadly here, what, precisely, ought to be done? You see a problem that you think needs to be solved. I see you and your solutions as the problem. I don't want your solutions implemented. And I think you don't have a realistic view of who your enemy is and what they are capable of.

In other words, the issue isn't "we, the people," against the government. It's "we, the people against we, the people." We have much different ideas about what constitutes personal and civil rights and responsibilities, and which direction the country ought to take.

And if you really, really, really want to get down to it and fight a "hot" war (which I do not want to happen and I hope you don't either), I've got more guns and ammo than you do. So be careful what you wish for.

Wow!

Didn't expect this many replies on basically a wandering mind.

Thanks all for the input.

Pick sides, stay on the sidelines and pontificate, run and hide.

Everyone has their own line in the sand, their own threshold.

Even the fat, dumb, and happy like me will have a breaking point at some point.

I think, however, with hindsight, ATS will have a footnote in history.

reply to post by Snarl


I honestly believe that mass non violent protest is plenty.
That can take down the Government simply because if the Government cannot stay peaceful in a mass protest against it, and starts firing on civilians, almost the entire population would simply stand up, and shut everything down. The Government would be powerless to stop it, and would have to concede to the masses demands.

I don't think a violent revolt with people shooting at the US Government is even remotely close to realistic unless the constitution were abolished,right to bear arms was taken away, or our troops are forced to turn on us on a large scale, which is not realistic either, I don't see the government as some evil entity that is out to get me.
Although some people do.

I just see it as a few bad mistakes in who we have elected.
Big mistakes,
but fixable if enough people feel the same way I do,
and attempt to vote in someone much better for our country.

I still have faith in my country and my constitution.
The only way change will take place is if enough people VOTE.

But then, a lot of people don't believe in the voting system either.
It must seem like a pretty bleak world for people who have lost complete faith in the USA.
I have not, not in the people,
and although I eyeball the Gov and wonder WTF they are doing..
I have faith in my fellow man, and We the People.

I'm not even sure if any of this is relevant anymore as I forgot your comment by the time I got done typing this semi-hopeful rant...lol

ketsuko
reply to post by theantediluvian

 

None of the bureaucrats in the government are fairly or freely elected by the people. Those are the people who were standing off against the people in Nevada. Those people owe loyalty only to their next paycheck which comes from taxes paid for by the very people they were out there abusing.

There are so many laws on the books now that none of us can go through the day without breaking one, and if they choose, those bureaucrats can come for you.

You really and truly believe that is an accurate description of life in the U.S.? You live in constant fear of breaking the law and being punished for it by bureaucrats? We have the highest incarceration rate in the world, and even then we're talking about less than one quarter of one percent. There are a lot of people in jail for non-violent crimes of which the highest percentages are drug related crimes and theft. I think it's a travesty, particularly, locking up people for possession but I don't know a lot of people who are arguing against locking up thieves. Yet even though I'm alarmed by the facts, I don't live in fear because to be perfectly honest, one of the easiest things for me to do, as a middle-class white man in this country, is to stay out of jail. So maybe you should ask yourself if your fear is justified by reality.

Also, it's worth mentioning that bureaucrats have bosses and at the top of each and everyone one of those chains of commands is in fact, ultimately, an elected official.

ketsuko
reply to post by theantediluvian

 

None of the bureaucrats in the government are fairly or freely elected by the people. Those are the people who were standing off against the people in Nevada. Those people owe loyalty only to their next paycheck which comes from taxes paid for by the very people they were out there abusing.

There are so many laws on the books now that none of us can go through the day without breaking one, and if they choose, those bureaucrats can come for you.

There's not one person on ATS who doesn't know this to be true. I don't care which side of the argument you're on, a fact is a fact. However, there are two sides to consider.

The government could've crushed those people out at the Bundy ranch. Why didn't they?? (Please don't allow this rhetorical question to drag this thread off-topic. There are too many on-going discussions where this could more properly be addressed.) IMVHO, no agent of the government will act until the vast weight of the law becomes a threat to themselves. They've got it all their way at the moment ... so why should they be the ones to upset the status quo?

reply to post by Darkblade71

But then, a lot of people don't believe in the voting system either.

I freely admit to being a member of those in this belief.

The common man has no voice in government. Elections are bought and paid for. Even if an underdog upsets the odds as the longshot ... never forget the money he had to get into the race in the first place.

Does America even exist any more, or has it faded into a historical footnote?

I believe firmly that the government has crossed the line on enough issues that if the people revolted analyst would look back into history and say "wow it took them that long?".

However with that said...I don't believe they are all evil....Obama once made a statement on the Oprah show that really struck me..He said people join politics for the right reasons...I believe that. I think they all think they will make the world better then get there and want to take care of their buddies and help out there friends.

Imagine yourself for minute...you are president and you want someone to run a certain department. Do you choose a stranger or someone you trust? Its so easy to see how this got out of hand. And the rich know the rich...so the rich are appointing the rich.

So since I believe they are not all evil...they just have no heart...or havent been down on the ground level to see how things are...I dont want a violent revolution. Id say vote them all out but that doesnt work either cause your choices are ..as south park put it... a turd sandwich or a giant douche....

My own answer is to leave the country..while living off my retirement. This is better anyway for the lower cost of living abroad...for people in the usa...the answer to me is this....get OFF GRID.

If you can become independent...you totally win. Grow your own food...water...electricity with solar..use a po box in town....get satellite dish or run into a shop with wifi when needed. Pay your property taxes when needed but avoid everything else the best you can. In theory if everyone was off grid the only control they would have is property taxes on you...and any new laws they make but as of now if you get out off grid you can build multiple tiny homes that dont break any building code and live out of that.

Edit: Better yet..set up a commune that is off grid and independant...in fact...hey ats...who wants to start a commune lol

beezzer
There is an element of our government that sees many Americans as the enemy.
There is an element of the population that sees government as the enemy.

Wise and mature caution brother Beezzer, your concerns are well founded.

I fear the biggest worry is not of civil revolt (by my measure) but, of authoritarian crackdown.

reply to post by Snarl


I think it is just a rough time Snarl.

The country will get better,
and life will get better,
we are just in a passing thunderstorm.
Though the wind is blowing pretty hard,
could spawn a few tornadoes too,
but in the end,
America the Great will still be here after the storm passes.
But nothing will change unless we make it change. Realize if nothing else this one thing about the voting system, if it was continuously rigged,
people would know about it.
It would be major news.
Something like that could not be kept quiet.

So the system is in place and works.
I plan on using it.
To not use it is to accept what is without trying to change it.

reply to post by Snarl


They didn't because a mass of citizens stood up to them. Had it remained just Bundy and family ... things would not have gone so well. There have been SWAT raids perpetrated against people for being delinquent on student loans. People have had their livestock seized and reputations smeared simply for having a complaint filed against them by an animal rights group. Or what about the sad story of Christina Pelletier whose only sin is that her parents disagreed with the diagnosis of doctor who disagreed with a previous doctor?

Now large groups of citizens showed up for those people, and the government just steamrolled them and abused at will.

Not everyone who runs afoul of the bureaucratic state can count on 1,000+ militiamen to stand up for them.

The people are well within their right to revolt, legally, considering our entire country is based upon the idea that the people have inalienable rights, and indeed they should revolt, since the government constantly pays no heed to these rights. There are too many examples to even list, going back decades, but still more take place today than ever in the past. If no revolution comes it is for one reason: the people either do not care in large enough numbers, or they do not think revolution is necessary. Most don't care, as they are caught up in their own lives and problems. They don't want things to change drastically, and they would rather leave any work, such as the government does, to others.

This is the mindset that has gotten us into this mess. IF the people cared enough, whenever the government does something it shouldn't ever have done, the public outcry would be so great, with people marching on the freaking White House and other places, that the government may have listened. I really hope a big issue arises, where the government does something so outlandish that people just get fed up, and then when they protest the government refuses to give the rights back to the people...because maybe then people will do something about it.

Talking about open revolution against the government could be considered illegal, but imo this is only if those who wish to overthrow the government are in the wrong. And they would be in the wrong under all circumstances, Except for when the government is stepping on the rights of the people. This is the one instance where our Founding Fathers explicitly stated that we had both the right and the duty to throw off such government.

So how could the government call such people terrorists, or whatever else, when they are just doing what the first patriots of this country did? When the Founding Fathers stated that we have a DUTY to throw off such government, wouldn't that make the revolutionaries the true patriots?

You all have given me much to think about.

Thank you all for sharing your insight.

reply to post by ketsuko

There have been SWAT raids perpetrated against people for being delinquent on student loans

No. That was the original story, but it was then redacted and correctly reported as a crime investigation.

Department of Education Press Secretary Justin Hamilton confirmed to The Huffington Post that the agency's Office of the Inspector General (OIG) did indeed order the action, although he said it was not about an issue over student loans in default.

"While it was reported in local media that the search was related to a defaulted student loan, that is incorrect," Hamilton said. "This is related to a criminal investigation. The Inspector General’s Office does not execute search warrants for late loan payments."

www.huffingtonpost.com...

Don't like HuffPo? Too bad....I could take the time to post links to the dozens of other reports clarifying that the raid was NOT to collect a delinquent student loan, but I don't feel like it.
Simply do a search for the topic, and you'll find plenty of corrected, edited articles that all say this was sensationalized nonsense.