Gun Control in the UK: misconceptions, where do people get them?

samerulesapply
I don't know why people start these threads, or why I read them...or respond to them, but they do, so I do.

Every gun thread there's some American guy who makes some catty jibe to the effect of us brits enjoying our big brother society...as if they genuinely believe the hype that America is land of the free - when history proves otherwise.

Assasinated presidents...the NSA snooping on everyone, the ATF burning kids at waco, the cops murdering Chris Dorner practically live on television, the murders of Martin Luther King Jr, John Lennon - the warrantless searches after the Boston fiasco...it goes on and on.

Yes, we're enjoying our big brother, surveillance society...we're so controlled and oppressed by our government here in the UK - and unable to fight back as apparently we've no constitution.

Given the apparent right to form militia and bear arms, to fight back against oppressive, tyrranical governments - and given the short list of examples I just presented...shouldn't you gun chappies be out overthrowing your government right now, as opposed to spending time here on ATS defending your right to own guns so that you can do what you're not actually doing?

Clear proof that your owning a gun vs your apparent reasons for wanting to own a gun don't quite match.

I don't want a gun, but if I did I like to think I'd be honest about it...it's for shooting animals and/or people...that's what it's for! If I laid claim to the notion that it was for overthrowing some oppressive government I'd be forced to then act, as I'm a man of my word - and our government is kind of oppressive at times...they ain't burned a load of people or hunted down too many fugitives on live tv - Raoul Moat, maybe...only one I can think of, there could be more - it's a lot easier to find such examples if you look to the states, though. Your history is strewn with oppression and injustice, assasination and dodgy surveillance...one day the pot will fall from that very high horse and break its spout...and the kettle will laugh and say I 'told you so'. Pot was too busy insulting everyone else to listen...

So stop arguing and go out there and storm Washington with your guns - show us all that it's more than just an excuse to get your own way because some dosument said you're entitled to it.

A lot of things have been said and written over the centuries by a lot of different people, don't make it right.

What you simply don't understand is that by and large most legal gun owners are peaceful and choose to try and work within the system instead of exercising violence. Yes, we have oppression and injustice and yes I wish more could be done but in no way does this mean we should be invading Washington and killing people.....frankly, we haven't reached that yet.

The point here is that the power of the people comes not from firing their weapons but by simply having them. Owning firearms is a great, great responsibility and most of us take this very seriously. My belief is that had we not had the Second Amendment we would have lost this country completely during the reign of FDR (and we almost did). It's also one of the key reasons that the Japanese didn't attempt to invade us but I'm sure you knew that.

You're entitled to your beliefs and your opinions but don't expect us to listen or care for them. You may have no respect for us or our heritage but we also have little respect for people who happily consider themselves "subjects" of an inbred monarchy. We value freedom, heritage, and personal accountability....most of us could never live as serfs the way you do.

wills120
It's also one of the key reasons that the Japanese didn't attempt to invade us but I'm sure you knew that.

Don't make stuff up - Japan had no intention to invade the mainland US, their sites were firmly set on the Pacific and building an Empire there, hence why they tried to take out the USN at Pearl harbour. They may well have looked the US mainland after completing all their main objectives in Asia, but that's just guesswork.

wills120
You're entitled to your beliefs and your opinions but don't expect us to listen or care for them. You may have no respect for us or our heritage but we also have little respect for people who happily consider themselves "subjects" of an inbred monarchy. We value freedom, heritage, and personal accountability....most of us could never live as serfs the way you do.

What is it with talking down to us and calling us "serfs", or even "subjects"? You clearly have no clue whatsoever what a serf is, much less how our country operates, the history of it or what British people are like - you're just making bollocks up.

You say you value "freedom, heritage and personal accountability", like it is something unique to you when those very same concepts could describe the British and we actually have heritage, with our country being over 1,000 years old.

reply to post by stumason


Might want to check your history again....the Japanese did invade and hold the Aleutian islands for a time and attacked Oregon twice. However, even the Japanese knew the folly of attempting a large scale invasion and that was the basis for my comment:

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass" - Isoroku Yamamoto

As to me "talking down" to your countrymen, my comment was directed at those who chose to comment and ridicule us over our gun rights. That argument comes from a hypocritical position since it's EXACTLY what allowed us to free ourselves from British tyranny.

It's not part of your society - fine, just don't tell us it shouldn't be part of ours.

LABTECH767
reply to post by TrueBrit

 

...though in english law you are entitled to use proportionate force in self defence and if you feel your life is threatened that includes lethal force the use of a gun would be automatically classified as undue force and the person whom used a gun in self defence (Unless they are former Special forces as they are allowed to keep there service pistol for such as they might be in possession of state secrets) would automatically be charged with murder.

Absolutely and completely untrue. If lethal force was found to be proportionate in the circumstances then you would not be convicted of murder. Possession of the firearm might be a separate conviction, but it would not be "automatically classified as undue force".

I also think someone's been pulling your leg about "former special forces".

wills120
Might want to check your history again....the Japanese did invade and hold the Aleutian islands for a time and attacked Oregon twice. However, even the Japanese knew the folly of attempting a large scale invasion and that was the basis for my comment:

No need to check fella, quite well versed actually. The Aleutian islands are not the mainland and are relatively close to Japan, but Japan never had any plans for an outright invasion of the US. The Oregon attacks were simply Japanese subs shelling the mainland, hardly an invasion.

wills120
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass" - Isoroku Yamamoto

He never actually said that, you know - it's actually attributed to Gordon Prange, Historian for General McArthur.

wills120
As to me "talking down" to your countrymen, my comment was directed at those who chose to comment and ridicule us over our gun rights. That argument comes from a hypocritical position since it's EXACTLY what allowed us to free ourselves from British tyranny.

The War of Independence was more about rich landowners getting richer than any notion of "freedom" or fighting "tyranny". Fully 1/3rd the population of the Colonies at the time fought for the British and subsequently moved to Canada or the Caribbean after the War. It wasn't all heroes and fighting the good fight like you are taught, you know.

wills120
It's not part of your society - fine, just don't tell us it shouldn't be part of ours.

I don't believe anyone was, not least because the thread is titled: Gun Control in the UK: misconceptions, where do people get them?...

It is true Americans have been sold a fairytale regarding the founding fathers and the declaration of independence the rest of the world know it was basically the wealthy elites mutinying for tax reasons.

The patriotic propaganda drilled into the skulls of every citizen for over 200 years has done its job on most Americans they believe the fairytale unconditionally.

wills120


"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass" - Isoroku Yamamoto

BS!!!!!!!!

There is no evidense this was ever said.

Its a made up quote.

Find me a REAL source, and by real source not a NRA website or infowars ect

willis120
As to me "talking down" to your countrymen, my comment was directed at those who chose to comment and ridicule us over our gun rights. That argument comes from a hypocritical position since it's EXACTLY what allowed us to free ourselves from British tyranny.

No it wasnt!

Stop useing Mel gibson andThe patriot as your history source.

The War of independance was won by US regulars supplied by the french and later by french troops.

The humble militia man only really had a impact at the start of the war and quite frankly a monkey with a knife would have done the same job as the British at the start were so disorganised.

reply to post by Antigod


I dont think anyone thought there were no guns. You just dont have the freedom to own good self protection weapons. Ironically the reason you lost semi auto rifles was a singular mass shooting, then you lost pistols ove another singular mass shooting, and then in 2010 there was another mass shooting using only single shot rifles anf a shotgun.

So that proved that not only was it pointless to van those other weapons to stop mass shootings; but that your government ia very eager to take your weapons and leave you defenseless in your homes and for future mass shootings.

Good luck stopping three home invaders with your bunny gun.

Admittedly you dont seem to have the police problem we have though. Something has to break I. The states with all these police murders.
we live between a rock and a hard place. Die by police or defend yourself against an onslaught of police take them all on and hope the media gets there before you are murdered for defending yourself. Thats the states these days.

reply to post by crazyewok


Well.. regardless whether or not the quote is real.. it a absolutely true.

Maybe even 2 guna behind every blade of grass.

wills120
The point here is that the power of the people comes not from firing their weapons but by simply having them. Owning firearms is a great, great responsibility and most of us take this very seriously. My belief is that had we not had the Second Amendment we would have lost this country completely during the reign of FDR (and we almost did). It's also one of the key reasons that the Japanese didn't attempt to invade us but I'm sure you knew that.

Erm, no, the Japanese couldn't have invaded the US Mainland even if they wanted to. They barely had enough shipping to get what they did in SE Asia on the thinnest of shoestrings and even then they were insanely lucky. They couldn't even have invaded Hawaii - the logistical challenge would have been too vast.

By the way this is ATS and we are missing something.

ITS OBAMA FAULT THE UK DOESN'T HAVE GUNS!!!!!



Ok there now fixed.

Has anyone mentioned the NAZI yet? Or do I have to do that?

stumason

wills120
Might want to check your history again....the Japanese did invade and hold the Aleutian islands for a time and attacked Oregon twice. However, even the Japanese knew the folly of attempting a large scale invasion and that was the basis for my comment:

No need to check fella, quite well versed actually. The Aleutian islands are not the mainland and are relatively close to Japan, but Japan never had any plans for an outright invasion of the US. The Oregon attacks were simply Japanese subs shelling the mainland, hardly an invasion.

wills120
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass" - Isoroku Yamamoto

He never actually said that, you know

- it's actually attributed to Gordon Prange, Historian for General McArthur.

wills120
As to me "talking down" to your countrymen, my comment was directed at those who chose to comment and ridicule us over our gun rights. That argument comes from a hypocritical position since it's EXACTLY what allowed us to free ourselves from British tyranny.

The War of Independence was more about rich landowners getting richer than any notion of "freedom" or fighting "tyranny". Fully 1/3rd the population of the Colonies at the time fought for the British and subsequently moved to Canada or the Caribbean after the War. It wasn't all heroes and fighting the good fight like you are taught, you know.

wills120
It's not part of your society - fine, just don't tell us it shouldn't be part of ours.

I don't believe anyone was, not least because the thread is titled: Gun Control in the UK: misconceptions, where do people get them?...

Actually, I did know that about the quote....the point, in context, was to illustrate that it's damn near impossible to invade the U.S. because the people are armed - a key point of the Second Amendment. Furthermore, there was real fear that the Japanese would attempt to invade the West Coast regardless of any actual threat or not. I can drive 30 minutes from my house and find a coastal artillery battery that was built in early 1942 as testament to that fear.

Your revisionist view of our history is quite amusing. Surely 2/3 of the people weren't rich landowners. Nor were all of the Founding Fathers wealthy as many of them went bankrupt after independence. The bottom line is that our people were tired of your king controlling them. We kicked his ass out - end of story.

...and yes, I can point to literally hundreds and hundreds of comments and threads on here from your countrymen telling us we shouldn't have firearms. This is what I'm addressing. I've spent a lot of time in the UK and I like your people a lot. The one thing I don't like is when they start talking politics with me and try to convince me that their way is better. You've got huge, huge problems in the U.K as well....your people don't need to be lecturing our people on firearms.

wills120


Your revisionist view of our history is quite amusing. Surely 2/3 of the people weren't rich landowners.

Not revisionist, non biased and undiluted my Merican propaganda.

Just cause 1/3 supported the British doesn't mean 2/3 supported the patriots.

Quite the contrary. The majority of that 2/3 remained neutral! The actually number of Patriots was around 1/4 of the population.

GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by Antigod

 

I dont think anyone thought there were no guns. You just dont have the freedom to own good self protection weapons. Ironically the reason you lost semi auto rifles was a singular mass shooting, then you lost pistols ove another singular mass shooting, and then in 2010 there was another mass shooting using only single shot rifles anf a shotgun.

So that proved that not only was it pointless to van those other weapons to stop mass shootings; but that your government ia very eager to take your weapons and leave you defenseless in your homes and for future mass shootings.

Good luck stopping three home invaders with your bunny gun.

Admittedly you dont seem to have the police problem we have though. Something has to break I. The states with all these police murders.
we live between a rock and a hard place. Die by police or defend yourself against an onslaught of police take them all on and hope the media gets there before you are murdered for defending yourself. Thats the states these days.

edit on 16-4-2014 by GogoVicMorrow because: (no reason given)

Guns are not a part of the average British criminal's life, most will never own one. We have no need for fully automatic handguns.

The term 'home invasion' isn't part of the Uk vocabulary. We use 'aggravated burgalry', but an incident where a group of armed men force their way into a house is so rare it doesn't have a term legally.

About 600 burglaries a year involve what looks like a gun (we have a lot of fakes) out of about 650,000 burglaries. Most robberies in the home with violence are using sticks, fists and less often a knife. In fact, google 'shot by burglar' in the UK, and see what you find. Lots of sorry assed burglars shot by farmers: I couldn't find a single case of a home owner shot by a burglar.

When has an American mass shooting been stopped by an armed citizen?

What our gun control does is prevent most of the crazy testosterone nuts getting hold of a gun in the first place.

Lets see, American population about 318 million, you lose about 125 plus people a year in mass gun killings (about 900 in past 7 years). That's about one in 2.5 million odds every year. We lost 12 people, the only mass shooting in this millenium here. So, lets say 12/14, less than one person per year, bearing in mind our population is about 1/5 the size of yours... odds areabout 1/70 million ish in the UK per annum to die from a mass shooting. So, you are about 30-ish time more likely to die in America from a mass gun killing. Very rough numbers, feel free to fine tune them.

Still think gun control doesn't cut down deaths from mass shootings?

reply to post by Maxatoria

One of the main things about guns here in the states is we have them for self and family protection. In a home break-in seconds make the difference between your relatives talking about how you blasted this miscreant into his next reincarnation or your relatives talking about how they are going to miss you, your wife and your kids because a locked up rifle or shotgun or a handgun in a safe will be of no use to you whatsoever. Like myself many Americans sit around their house with a gun close at hand usually in a clip on holster. And with a no nonsense 9mm or a 357 or better. We feel safer knowing when the police finally show up they wont be ascertaining how many family members are injured but where the intruders body is.

tmeister182

In a home break-in seconds make the difference between your relatives talking about how you blasted this miscreant into his next reincarnation or your relatives talking about how they are going to miss you,

Or the thug that breaks in shots you dead. And your familiy still end up dead.

Its 50/50 who gets killed.

tmeister182
your wife and your kids because a locked up rifle or shotgun or a handgun in a safe will be of no use to you whatsoever.

Except in the UK the ones that break in 999/1000 wont have anything more than a small knife. Yeah good luck to them when they end up with a crossbow bolt pinning them to the wall or beheaded with the Katana I have.

UK is not the USA. GET IT INTO YOUR SKULLS! Different rules apply. Yes USA most criminals are armed! Ok that the US of FREAKING A not the UK where you only get gun armed criminals invade your home if your likely a gang banger yourself.

tmeister182
Like myself many Americans sit around their house with a gun close at hand usually in a clip on holster. And with a no nonsense 9mm or a 357 or better.

Yeah ok you live in a country of fear where you don't even feel safe in your own homes. Good for you.


Get it UK and USA are different what fly's in the UK wont fly in the USA and vice versa. You keep your stupid gun culture within your own borders.

In Britain, needing a gun for protection is on a level with needing a tornado shelter.

AndyMayhew
In Britain, needing a gun for protection is on a level with needing a tornado shelter.

Exactly.
Its just a non issue here.]
Different country different ways that's all.

reply to post by Antigod


Just so you know Anti ALL the mass shootings were in gun free zones.

reply to post by crazyewok


Just for the record I feel 100 percent safe in my home from both criminals and police. Smith+Wesson both give me that warm and fuzzy feeling.