US in Iraq worse than Hitler

Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi

Firebombs and fuel-air bombs are already banned under the geneva conventions.

Sorry but the Geneva Convention does not ban any weapons at all. I dont know why people are always saying this weapon or that weapon is banned under the Geneva Convention. So people please stop saying the Geneva convention deals with weapons.

A 1980 UN convention did banned the use of napalm against civilian targets though . But the US did not sign this treaty so it is not breaking this treaty if it used such weapons. Its just like with countries that didnt sign the NPT Cuba,Israel ect... they cannot break it because they are not signing members.

Ok this is going to be a long one, grab your cup of coffee and try to keep up.

First things first let me address some of the misrepresentation of the facts first and foremost.

quote: Posted by ItWasntMe
There are many genocides going on in the world today, fortunately none are being committed by the United States.


Well it's interesting you should point that out. Google defines genocide as "the systematic and planned killing of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group." Isn't that what the U.S is doing to the "insurgents" who are not an army, but are in fact Iraqi citizens fighting against an occupational force whose invasion of Iraq is classed as "an illegal invasion" by the United Nations? (Psychoses)

Ok Psychoses, This is not meant to pick on you but your statements show emotion and not logic. Logically with the weapons we have if we to commit genocide I can think of far better ways then searching the cities with soldiers, we could and would just use daisy cutters across the whole city accomplishing the goal of genocide in mere hours. Second Insurgents are only fired on when they are a threat to American soldiers, if they did not have guns and were walking down the street they would not be harmed by the American army. I challenge you to provide a credible source for your last remark, �invasion of Iraq is classed as "an illegal invasion" by the United Nations?� The fact is Iraq was in direct violation of many UN resolutions and showed no evidence of ever complying.

You guys. The crimes that are being committed in our name are atrocious. (Emily_Cragg)

Name one. Here is a list of torture under saddam, this is published by amnesty international. web.amnesty.org...
Read this before any more talk of our crimes is mentioned please.

Well let me tell you that the Bush administration not only has committed a genocide in Iraq (and other palces), it behaved like Hitler in Guantanamo (and other palces), but it is also after building the new Roman empire. Also the bad thing is that most of the Americans think just like Mr. Bush! (WisdomMaster)

This is a blanket statement which I tried to just ignored but got to me. This does not provide any prove or any argueable points, just a shotgun blast of an attack. I ask you to go into more detail so we might understand your point of view.

However... the U.S. is indeed going about the occupation of Iraq in a clumsy and heavy-handed way. The mission to topple Saddam has turned into a mission to "build" Iraq - and the U.S. is ignoring the fact that some Iraqis may genuinely be pissed off at being occupied by a foreign force. But the Bush administration has a "shoot first and discuss later" and "diplomacy is for wimps" attitude. And let's not forget the "We don't have to understand terrorists - we just have to kill them." And as long as that doesn't change - as long as the U.S. administration doesn't realize that not all terrorists become terrorists for the same reasons - it's condemned to kill more and more Muslims. (Otts)

Terrorist-adj : characteristic of someone who employs terrorism (especially as a political weapon); "terrorist activity"; "terrorist state" n : a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities. The statement is flawed, terrorists would love nothing more for us to try to understand them. Do you think they sit around trying to understand our culture. As a general statement most terrorists spawn for religious radicalism, not all but a good number. In this situation we are dealing with radical Islamic, They are not mad because of our politics as many would love to believe but angry due to our religious faiths. www.policyreview.org... . Terrorism will always be around due to the radical Islamic belief that all who do not believe in allah are infidels and deserve to die, couple that with our sexually open, civil rights striving western culture and we become everything the Islamic faith condemns, more or less. As for diplomacy, how can you be diplomatic with a army of crusaders who attack from the shadows and use women and children as weapons? I do not doubt that some Iraqis are angry at the United States, but that is not a majority of the country, The fact is we do not really know how they feel do to the fact there country has been repressed in its freedom of speech and it will be some while until they feel free to express there views. The more we bend and try to level with the terrorist the easier they will find it to attack and they will not think twice to do it.

Mokuhadzushi-No, poor idiot. The figure 100.000 is not a 'lie', but scientific truth, published by a world's leading medical journal.
-No my friend you are stretching the tuth and insulting this fellow poster. The iraqi resistance is not made up of foreigners. Stop believing Bush lies.


-Mokuhadzushi- Where do I start with your post� �100.000 is not a 'lie', but scientific truth, published by a world's leading medical journal.� Please name this leading medical journal so I can read this confirmed number that is apparently being posted.
There are many members of the resistance that are Iraqi without a doubt. But when the call for the jihad went out, Islamic radicals from many nations entered the fight against the United States. www.newsmax.com...
Instead of just attacking another poster, why don�t you argue him with facts and comments to make him see your point instead of just believing you are right.



Now onto the body of my post�
The United States is not perfect, but it is no Germany from the 30�s. First of all in a direct comparison did the Jews in Europe kill there own people in hope of getting maybe one German? The answer is no, the jews in Europe looked after there own creating escape routes and organized forces to protect its people. Now onto present day, terrorists in Iraq are randomly placing bombs on the side of the road in hope of getting an American Convoy, but often instead kill members of its own faith/countrymen.

www.chinadaily.com.cn...
www.inq7.net...

I can post more examples but it would be redundant. If anyone is going to be compared to the terror Hitler inflicted in the world it should be the terrorist currently operating around the world. They do not care about any people besides themselves, Well let me rephrase that, they care a lot but only about converting or destroying all the infidels. The Iraqis have lived in a land operated by a human rights violator and a man who built an empire of wealth on stealing food from its citizens. Name one other country in the world that has helped rebuild a country after it removed a leader. As a matter of fact, the united states has helped rebuild ever country that we have fought against no matter whether we were right in fighting them or not. We are still paying France, Germany, Japan etc etc for WW2 bombings. So to compare Bush to a dictator like Hitler who systematically went across Europe killing all who stood in his way, torturing and designing an efficient machine for destroying human life through furnaces, gas, and torture is nothing more than to draw an emotional reaction. If you read through information for yourself instead of watching a biased media you will notice the United States Army has followed international rules of fighting based on the geneva convention and punished the soldiers that have disobeyed these rules. They continue to follow these rules though its enemy clearly does not pay attention to these rules and does not care to even attempt to follow them. They have decapitated many soldiers and civilians alike. Uses women and children to sneak attack our soldiers, yet I only hear disgust for our soldiers doing there job and making the country save for its Iraqis. I know this post is long, but I appreciate you sticking with it.


[edit on 27-11-2004 by ItWasntMe]

Originally posted by Montana
Do you have a reference or link to a site with casualty predictions? I would like to see what they were. Thanks.

Do me and you a favor go back to the begining of this thread and click on the links, I guess you just forgot to read and "click"

And then when you are finished with your homework do a nice search in the internet on Iaqis "casualties" then come back and post.

Originally posted by marg6043

Do me and you a favor go back to the begining of this thread and click on the links, I guess you just forgot to read and "click"

And then when you are finished with your homework do a nice search in the internet on Iaqis "casualties" then come back and post.

Alright, Marg.....

I made a polite request for information that I didn't have, and this is what you come back with?

But, just to make sure I hadn't missed something, I DID go back and read the entire thread and click on every link. Not one mention of any casualty predictions was made in any post or any source. That's why I asked if you could help me find it in the first place.

And I will say again.....

Every 'source' for a casualty figure of 100,000 references the Johns Hopkins study. I have already stated my views about that. However, most of the sources in this thread state a figure between 10,000 and 15,000. Lets see, many state one set of figures and only ONE states the other....

Anyway, I made a sincere, polite request for information and you reply with some sarcastic piece of trash reply?????? Shame on you!

Have you researched the growing animosity against muslims and the general de-humanisation of muslim peoples?

Originally posted by Chris McGee
Have you researched the growing animosity against muslims and the general de-humanisation of muslim peoples?

I think the Islamists (not Muslims as a whole) are WAY ahead on the whole animosity and de-humanization thing. Most places I have seen have made a distinction between the two.

OK, here's a good kick off point:

Originally posted by Chuck Stevenson
First arrange to split the terrirtory with the other participants then nuke the home territories of the Terrorists using airburst neutron weapons. Kill absolutely every human being in those countries. Move in three days later and clean up the bodies, there would be very little residual radiation and damage unless a weapon detonated close to the ground. No real fear of Fallout or thermal damage either.

another:

Originally posted by Chieftian Chaos
It does sound like cold blooded murder...but I'm all for it. We have terrorists around the world talking badass to the United States...the most powerful country in the world...and we just stand back and say "whatever". Granted I have no real care for the Middle East...I could really care less if it was wiped out from the face of the Earth. But we have weapons for a reason...not just to show off. Nuking the Middle East will make countries fear us, and that fear in turn will make us safe. Even though it sounds like cold-blooded murder, we will be safer in the end.

Interesting solution to the problem we created:

Originally posted by American Mad ManI Make it stated US policy to nuke every Muslim city AND holy site if we are attacked.

Simply use some Minutemen II missles - we've got plenty of them...

That's from ONE thread btw,

Thread refernce:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This has to be the most ridiculous thread topic I�ve seen in ages! Great job! I also like those sources, really reliable and non biased!

/sarcasm off

Psychoses, people like you have to experience things first hand to get a grip on reality. Please, just please� say you don�t feel the USA is worst than Nazi run Germany.

To call this thread a piece of crap wouldn�t be insulting enough, I�ll leave it at that

Godflesh, you're a troll. I hope the mods take notice.

Its ok to disagree but enough with the personal attacks. This is what people are constantly complaining about here on ATS.

I just want to take some time out from this thread to thank Godflesh for his contribution. Really man, well done. I nominate him for top ATS member of the year. You have enlightened us all, thank you.

/Sarcasm off

wow, that forward slash works pretty well.

Originally posted by SourGrapes

There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made in a thread the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress...

en.wikipedia.org...'s_law

You lost!

In a way I think we agree but perhaps for opposing reasons. In this instance, I see the aptness Marshall McLuhan's warning that to "name it" is to "numb it". The fact is that there is an extaordinary disporoportionality between Iraqi and America deaths in Iraq as follows:

- More than 100,000 CIVILIANS have been killed by the invasion.

- About 1235 American and 74 British soldiers were killed in Iraq

- About 64 American contractors (about 3/4 of whom were bomb and weapons disposal and security consultants) have been killed in Iraq

- The Iraqi civilians were killed in their own country

- The Americans picked this fight and there is no comprehensible story that explains the US presence in Iraq

Call it what you want to call it but address with some honesty and courage the fact that civilians have been decimated in huge numbers by American forces. It is hard to believe that we can believe that this violence will not boomerang. A real shame... on us.

[edit on 27-11-2004 by G_Scard]

Ah......

Someone else who takes ONE estimate- one that doubts it's own veracity- and tries to convince us it is fact. For someone who exhorts the rest of us about being reasonable and realistic, perhaps you could at least state that there are other figures that are 90% lower and are quoted much more often?

Im a Troll? Im not the one posting inaccurate information,

To compare the most horrible man in history to your own country that is fighting to protect your ass from more cowardly terrorist attacks is a travesty and u should be put down. You are horrible and have no right saying those things. Go smoke sum shrooms hippy

All Right I can t stand it any longer, the stupidity in this thread make me puke.

Originally posted by MokuhadzushiThis article should be for us an occasion to think about the relationships between the USA and the Nazis. After WW2, many Nazis were welcomed in the US and hailed as bringers of science and wisdom. Without the Nazis, no A-Bomb. Without the Nazis, no Spaceflight. Without the Nazis, no anti-bolchevist struggle. Without the Nazis, no USA.

Does anyone realize that Nazi's were a PARTY and not a race of crazy Germans. Not all Nazi's liked to kill Jews, especially the ones that joined at knifepoint. Still it is an EVIL invention and to compare the US with that is well STUPID.

Originally posted by Montana
Just a couple of quotes from the Johns Hopkins site. For those no longer keeping score, the folks who actually did the study were from Johns Hopkins.

However, the researchers stressed that they found no evidence of improper conduct by the Coalition soldiers.

BTW, every link I saw on Google that reported the 100,000 figure referenced this ONE report. When has it ever been good common sense to base your belief on ONE anything?

Very interesting indeed, found NO improper conduct...hmmmm....Quuick Liberals fry the 30 troops at Abu Garb!

Originally posted by marg6043
I agree with you, the present administration has done a very good job of making Americans believe that the middle east population is not as human as the Christian nations of the west because they don't follow the same God they are called terrorist and american haters.When you make your nation agree with a war selling the idea that one particular religious view is better than another one is wrong and misguiding.

And I guess 3000 dead after a declaration of war should have warranted a sternly worded memo?

Originally posted by marg6043I don�t think that the US are purposely doing this to the Iraqi people, but the poor planning of this war is, and people you have to understand that when you invade a country you are responsible for the well being of their citizens, they need food, they need shelter and health care.

And we are doing our best to provide that, it is just when you have Syrians, Jordanians, Iranians, Saudis, Yemenis and Iraqi bathist's trying to keep you from it it can be a bit hard sometimes.

Originally posted by marg6043Well the problem with the bombs that the US used in Afghanistan and in Iraq to do strikes not always are very "smart" after all.But then again the civilian "casualties" are not counted.

And you understand little of military technology, plus you seem to want the US to kill civilians so your view can be justified. Never accept one single source about things as this.

Originally posted by marg6043
Exactly the Iraqi war is not even two years yet and the casualties that we know are not even accurate because US is not even taking a count of the deaths, so that will tell any person that the deaths are higher than predicted.

And marg so you remember the death count of Gulf War 1? They said hundreds of thousand's, but afterwords had to revise it down to 10's of thousands. A bit biased by the anti-war crowd huh?

Originally posted by dgtempeAny quick google search will tell you[url=http://christianity.about.com/cs/warandpeace/a/casualtycount2.htm]http://christianity.about.com/cs/warandpeace/a/casualtycount2.htm[/ur l]
And that is a conservative estimate. Not regurgitation.

And the quote from that is:

The numbers here are harder to come by, and estimates vary, but most agree that at least 15,000 civilians have been killed so far, probably far more. Some estimates run as high as 100,000 Iraqi civilian casualties.

And I wonder where they got those estimates?

Originally posted by Chris McGeeHave you researched the growing animosity against muslims and the general de-humanisation of muslim peoples?

Maybe the Muslims should speak out against what is being done in their name a bit more then!

Originally posted by BlissfullIgnorance
To compare the most horrible man in history to your own country that is fighting to protect your ass from more cowardly terrorist attacks is a travesty and u should be put down. You are horrible and have no right saying those things. Go smoke sum shrooms hippy

Thanks I needed a laugh!

Originally posted by ItWasntMeOk this is going to be a long one, grab your cup of coffee and try to keep up.First things first let me address some of the misrepresentation of the facts first and foremost.
quote: Posted by ItWasntMe Well it's interesting you should point that out. Google defines genocide as "the systematic and planned killing of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group." Isn't that what the U.S is doing to the "insurgents" who are not an army, but are in fact Iraqi citizens fighting against an occupational force whose invasion of Iraq is classed as "an illegal invasion" by the United Nations? (Psychoses)

What a well thought out post. Thank You!



[edit on 28-11-2004 by edsinger]

[edit on 28-11-2004 by edsinger]

Originally posted by Chris McGee
Have you researched the growing animosity against muslims and the general de-humanisation of muslim peoples?

While not reasearching the above topic, I must say that the silent majority of moderate muslims have allowed the extreme fundementalists in their religion to dictate the worlds opinion of them. Where is the continuous outrage over cruel beheadings of civilians who came over to help rebuild? Where is the the outcry of over the bombing of the UN Headquarters in Iraq at the start of the war? Where are the sustained condemnations of car, truck and suicide bombers who intentionally target civilians with their attacks? It is time for the moderates to look in the mirror and start wondering why they have such an "image" problem. The problem is from within, not from outside.

Originally posted by dgtempe
TC, you're entitled to your opinion, i wanted to make you aware that every website that comes up on Google states the same thing. Its not because of Jeffrense.com

that i think this.
Perhaps Google is waaay over on the left and has its own agenda..eh?

Notice, I was not talking to you when I mentioned Rense. Do not throw your dog in a fight that is unnecessary. Especially when the dog is being tired in a pre-fight scuffle.

I think that it is absurd to compare the United States to Nazi Germany. Had they the weaponry we have today, they would have decimated their enemies. Iraq would have been flattened and so would have anyone that opposed. By no means am I saying that America would have won in such a venture. I am saying we would have not showed so much restraint. Don't forget that these so called "Iraqi citizens" are attacking and killing their own people. If they want the United States and the coalition to leave so badly, let them do it politically with the upcoming election. Car bombs, kidnappings and beheadings, and mass shootings will only cause us to stay there longer.

[edit on 28-11-2004 by Mephorium]

Today about 12 Iraqi soldiers were found, bound and executed.

We are the Gestapo-types.

The freaks make me need to vomit.

OMG! I go to sleep and the thread turns into a monster!

I'd like to thank the people that responded as it's obvious that some of you have put a lot of time and thought into your posts.

Emily_Cragg

Emily, your response was slightly off topic but I must admit the extraterestrial beings are probably disgusted at the level of barbarianism that exists on Earth at the present time. Thankyou for your input.

paperclip

Posted by paperclip

As for the comparison with Hitler... well, not a good one.

I agree. As Bush's reign of terror has four more years to run I think we should wait before we compare the two of them.

SourGrapes

Posted by SourGrapes

Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi

This article should be for us an occasion to think about the relationships between the USA and the Nazis. After WW2, many Nazis were welcomed in the US and hailed as bringers of science and wisdom. Without the Nazis, no A-Bomb. Without the Nazis, no Spaceflight. Without the Nazis, no anti-bolchevist struggle. Without the Nazis, no USA.

And, how high does YOUR grass grow? (Wow, I could beat that up all day, but I've got somewhere to be. See you in about 6 hours my friend! Be ready!)

I think you will find some truth to this statement if you do a search on ATS. I havent the time to do it for you as I'm trying to respond to 55 posts.

As far as the grass goes, leave it out.

Thomas Crowne

Posted by Thomas Crowne

Psychosis, you picked the perfect name, friend.

As a friendly aussie I will say G'Day. My name is spelt with an 'E' cause I suffer from multiple complexes. Well at least that's what the doctors tell me.

Posted by Thomas Crowne
Your attempted point is nothing but a perverted stretch of any truth.

So you admit there is truth in the story, only I have attempted to stretch it?

Posted by Thomas Crowne
CAn you imagine the stuctural damage had we been so careless as to kill 100,000 non-combatants

So you are saying there has been no structural damage in Iraq? Why has Halliburton been allocated hundreds of millions of dollrs to rebuild it then?

Posted by Thomas Crowne
Really, you piece of lying human excrement; civilian neighborhoods were the primary target of the U.S. Airforce? You'd better back that up with a source as that is a very serious charge

Thomas, do you realise that in the history of mankind, the U.S.A is the only country to have dropped nuclear weapons on a civilian population? Twice!!

Why do you doubt they are targeting civilians in Iraq?

dgtempe

Thankyou for taking the time to post those links. Your contribution is welcome.

BStheGREAT

Posted by BStheGREAT
Do you even know what genocide is?

If you look at the beginning of the thread, I have provided a definition of genocide with a link to source.

Posted by BStheGREAT
The US has done nothing except defend themselves against a dictator making nuclear weapons. Yes, thats right, they were and still are making nuclear weapons in my opinion.

I know the U.S is still making them but the Iraqi's?

Montana

Posted by Montana
Just a couple of quotes from the Johns Hopkins site. For those no longer keeping score, the folks who actually did the study were from Johns Hopkins.
"Our findings need to be independently verified with a larger sample group".

Shame on you, Montana. Selective quoting! You should have posted a little more,,

From linked article
The researchers found that the majority of deaths were attributed to violence, which were primarily the result of military actions by Coalition forces. Most of those killed by Coalition forces were women and children. However, the researchers stressed that they found no evidence of improper conduct by the Coalition soldiers.

The survey is the first country-wide attempt to calculate the number of civilian deaths in Iraq since the war began. The United States military does not keep records on civilian deaths and record keeping by the Iraq Ministry of Health is limited. The study is published in the October 29, 2004, online edition of The Lancet.

�Our findings need to be independently verified with a larger sample group. However, I think our survey demonstrates the importance of collecting civilian casualty information during a war and that it can be done,�

source

"Most of those killed by Coalition forces were women and children" but it wasn't our fault we had to blow them up. They just got in the way. Is that your position? No wonder they are cutting your heads off.

Posted by Montana
Do you have a reference or link to a site with casualty predictions? I would like to see what they were. Thanks.

The very report you referred to states there are no official civilian casualty records kept by U.S.A. How convenient. Nobody will ever know.

ItWasntMe

Posted by ItWasntMe
That marine who shot in the mosque was protecting himself and his squad, a moving body in iraq no matter how injured might be has proven to be very deadly

Yes, I agree. The freedom fighters are using dirty tactics. They should be using clean tactics like Main Battle Tanks, Heavy Artillery and Helicopter Gun Ships. Hang on, if they had access to those kinds of things the U.S would have been kicked out long ago. Just look how successful they have been using weapons the U.S has left lying around.

Posted by ItWasntMe

I challenge you to provide a credible source for your last remark, �invasion of Iraq is classed as "an illegal invasion" by the United Nations?�

Here's two. One from the Kofi Annan, leader of the U.N,

The Prime Minister has found himself again defending his policy on Iraq, after the United Nations Secretary-General, Kofi Annan, said today that the US-led invasion was illegal and that the elections planned for Iraq in January would not be credible in the current security environment

source

and another from a respected Pentagon official,

International lawyers and anti-war campaigners reacted with astonishment yesterday after the influential Pentagon hawk Richard Perle conceded that the invasion of Iraq had been illegal.

source

and you will note that both articles are reported by respected media publishers. Any more challenges?

BlissfullIgnorance

Like I said earlier in the thread, those red flags are a bummer but you deserved it.