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An Alternative to UKIP

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posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 08:17 AM
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stumason
reply to post by doobydoll
 


People love to moan how the "poor" have been hit with the benefit changes, which actually amount to very small change, but the rest of us in the middle felt the squeeze right from the get go in 2010 and we're the one's who voted the Tories in. Straight away after the tax credits were reformed, I was out of pocket to the tune of £1560 a year.

The old "bedroom tax" was actually brought in for Private tenants in 2007 by Labour themselves, for crying out loud, but when the changes where brought in by the Coalition to make it apply to all tenants in receipt of housing benefit, that is somehow "demonising the poor" and used for cheap political point scoring by the party that not only created the financial mess but first created the so called "bedroom tax".

Then when other changes came in, more money was taken off me but we sucked it up as it was needed for the country.

It sums it up pretty well when you consider what Labour was warning would happen from 2010 to last year and now all they can say to any story is "cost of living crisis" - it's like a stuck record.

Yes, there was a squeeze as pay in real terms didn't rise for a few years on the back of a financial collapse that Labour oversaw, but I can guarantee from this year people will start to see pay rises (some even from last year - I saw an 8% pay increase myself) as companies start to see the recovery take hold.

Come 2015, Labour aren't going to have anything left to moan about while the Tories can at least point to the last 5 years and say we have reduced the deficit, rebalanced the economy, got people back into work and reduced the Welfare state - all things they were voted in to do.

Yes, there are things they could have done better or not at all, but could you imagine what sorry state we would be in had Brown been in charge from 2010? He had no plan other than to continue course and hope for the best - it is painfully obvious that Ed Balls and Milliband have no clue whatsoever either.
edit on 13/4/14 by stumason because: (no reason given)


The key here is the fact that you are actively engaged in the above role playing fairy tale.
Regardless of all your points here,the coalition is set to double our national debt in the time span of five years, that which has already took 150 years to accumulate.
Am I impressed the coalition has manged to 'organize' some of Labours chaos?
No. Why? They are all playing to the same tune. I will not partake in their system, lest only to destroy it from the inside out.




posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 08:17 AM
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reply to post by stumason
 


No its not, these people are dangerous mark my words, they treat immigration like its a big problem when it quite clearly is not; and argue against asylum which accounts for a very insignificant number of people who are in dire need of help , and these scum have influenced the weaker amongst us into allowing laws that mean that people are sent back to places like Zimbabwe to face torture and death. Civilized world much...

Oh please help the polish/ Romanian bogey men have arrived .... this is their cry/lie...



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 08:18 AM
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reply to post by ObservingYou
 


Yes, he does state he is an "independent blogger", but that article he has written is full of bias towards the Greens and against UKIP, it isn't an "independent" article in the slightest.. He has not taken an independent stance on the issue, instead he has clearly sided with the Greens and compared them to UKIP in an effort to say "vote Green, not UKIP"

Also, I never uttered the words "Green propaganda". Nice try, but no cigar.

I wasn't having a pop at you either, just picking apart the source. I notice you don't have anything to say on what actually wrote, just what you are implying I wrote.



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 08:23 AM
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stumason
reply to post by ObservingYou
 


Yes, he does state he is an "independent blogger", but that article he has written is full of bias towards the Greens and against UKIP, it isn't an "independent" article in the slightest.. He has not taken an independent stance on the issue, instead he has clearly sided with the Greens and compared them to UKIP in an effort to say "vote Green, not UKIP"

Also, I never uttered the words "Green propaganda". Nice try, but no cigar.

I wasn't having a pop at you either, just picking apart the source. I notice you don't have anything to say on what actually wrote, just what you are implying I wrote.


The source stated he had not yet made up his mind, and he doesn't know if he will vote for them.
Now we live in a world where everybody is assumed a liar? I'm calling you out on principle.
As for not addressing your points, please see my above post.
edit on 13/4/2014 by ObservingYou because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 08:24 AM
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ObservingYou
The key here is the fact that you are actively engaged in the above role playing fairy tale.


You sai "fairy tale", but don't (can't) actually dispute what I've said....


ObservingYou
Regardless of all your points here,the coalition is set to double our national debt in the time span of five years, that which has already took 150 years to accumulate.


You clearly don't understand how national debt works. First of all, it didn't take "150 years to accumulate" because that isn't how it is done. Government sell time limited bonds, 3, 5, 10 years for example, so none of the debt is actually that old.

Secondly, the national debt has not doubled (it has increased from around £1 Trillion to around £1.4 trillion) and in fact the accumulation of said debt has markedly dipped since 2010 and projections based on current economic forcasts (which have been shown recently to be very conservative as opposed to real growth) has it being reduced, with the deficit (something else entirely) being eliminated by 2018.

Source



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 08:28 AM
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reply to post by ObservingYou
 


The source can say he is Jesus, but that doesn't make it so. The bias in the language used in the article makes his feelings abundantly clear - for the simple fact he calls UKIP an "extremist right-wing" group, which it blatantly isn't.

Listen, I'm not a UKIP member, voter or supporter, but I am interested in being honest and telling the truth. Calling them names like that is simply dishonest and calls into question credibility.



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 08:31 AM
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reply to post by larapa
 


Immigration is a problem - many people in the UK are quite frankly sick of being told it isn't by the powers that be, which is precisely why UKIP has gained in popularity.

There is only a finite amount of land, finite jobs and finite resources to go around. It isn't racism, it is simple pragmatism. We cannot afford to accommodate multiple languages in schools, have all the low paid entry-level jobs being filled so the kids can't get work, whole towns are having their character changed by unfettered migration. Only the extreme left doesn't see it as an issue, even Labour now acknowledges it as a major issue.



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 08:34 AM
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reply to post by stumason
 


Note herein I said 'set to' .. You will have to allow me to locate the forecast, and provide you with the context.

How can I stand here and debate main party politics, when I inherently disbelieve in them?
I'm not a fan of attempting to fix symptoms whilst the disease still rages.
We need to focus beyond our parties, and change the real power houses, which are the IMF, the United Nations and giant corporations.
And yes, I'm worried that UKIP has/will be controlled opposition. In order to win in this games of chess, we require to be one step ahead.



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 08:36 AM
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stumason
reply to post by larapa
 


Immigration is a problem - many people in the UK are quite frankly sick of being told it isn't by the powers that be, which is precisely why UKIP has gained in popularity.

There is only a finite amount of land, finite jobs and finite resources to go around. It isn't racism, it is simple pragmatism. We cannot afford to accommodate multiple languages in schools, have all the low paid entry-level jobs being filled so the kids can't get work, whole towns are having their character changed by unfettered migration. Only the extreme left doesn't see it as an issue, even Labour now acknowledges it as a major issue.


Completely agreed.






posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 08:39 AM
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stumason
reply to post by ObservingYou
 

Calling them names like that is simply dishonest and calls into question credibility.


He doesn't need credibility, he's a citizen with an opinion aha.
I wasn't presenting this article as evidence, I was presenting it as an eye opener.



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 08:43 AM
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ObservingYou
Note herein I said 'set to' .. You will have to allow me to locate the forecast, and provide you with the context.


Considering I was using statistics from the ONS, I'd be surprised if you could find anything to the contrary. The ONS is not tied to the Government and produces accurate figures for everything.


ObservingYou
How can I stand here and debate main party politics, when I inherently disbelieve in them?
I'm not a fan of attempting to fix symptoms whilst the disease still rages.
We need to focus beyond our parties, and change the real power houses, which are the IMF, the United Nations and giant corporations.
And yes, I'm worried that UKIP has/will be controlled opposition. In order to win in this games of chess, we require to be one step ahead.


Agreed - if you care to look into my posting history and political activities, you'd see I am one of a few around here who advocate a Direct Democracy type system akin to Switzerland, which gives the electorate much more power and diminishes that of the Parties. I also feel very strongly about the presence of parties in Parliament at all, because Parliament doesn't recognise them - it is a system that they have constructed themselves within Parliament. I also really dislike people saying they vote for a party, when in reality you don't, you vote for your MP.

The system needs fundamental reform, but until we get enough support to do that, it won't change and people are far to apathetic to care right now. Hence, we have to work within the system we have and the reason I make the statements I do around here is not because of favouritism over one party or another, it is simply posting the facts instead of political hyperbole and dishonest lies.



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 08:44 AM
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reply to post by stumason
 


Farage skews the figures and tries to create panic ( 30 million Romanians are coming ;p), we are all immigrants , lets stop all this lines in the sand BS , the UK is not that great, and many do not want to live here , money is good for a time, but then people want to go home... The immigration has boosted our economy and the immigrants are generally hard working taking jobs that our lazy (UKIP?BNP/they took our jobs!!!) benefit citizen will not do.

I am young, have lived in the north and the south and have had no trouble finding work , due to my can do attitude.. which is very different to the: someone else should give me attitude that seems to plague allot of my peers...

edit on 13-4-2014 by larapa because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 08:45 AM
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reply to post by ObservingYou
 


And likewise, I am calling him out as a "citizen" to question his credibility in writing that article. Do I not have that right? He is clearly not as "independent" as he likes people to believe.

I could say I am "independent", but then write an article on how much the Tories are like Labour, who are "irrefutably a extreme-left party", so why not vote Tory instead of Labour? That wouldn't be very "independent" of me, now, would it?



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 08:54 AM
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stumason
reply to post by ObservingYou
 


And likewise, I am calling him out as a "citizen" to question his credibility in writing that article. Do I not have that right? He is clearly not as "independent" as he likes people to believe.

I could say I am "independent", but then write an article on how much the Tories are like Labour, who are "irrefutably a extreme-left party", so why not vote Tory instead of Labour? That wouldn't be very "independent" of me, now, would it?


I'd deem that as independent because only you are accountable for your actions.
I'd take your personal interests an investments on board too.
Our difference here will lie in definitions.



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 09:03 AM
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reply to post by larapa
 


UKIP never said that about 30 Million Romanians would come - what they said was the EU was giving the 30 million Romanian and Bulgarian people the right, which is factually correct. It is dishonest of them though as the implication is that all of them will come, but the underlying facts of the matter are undeniable.



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 09:08 AM
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reply to post by ObservingYou
 


Ok, let me put it another way..

If there was an inquiry into something and an independent Judge was appointed, would his independence not be called into question if his opening statements came down strongly against one side and in favour of another?

Take, for example, the Hillsborough Inquiry. If the panel said "we shall look at all the facts to determine what went on between the excellent Police force and the rowdy, disobedient and drunk fans in the stadium", then they could hardly be called "independent".

This guy is the same. This isn't about "definitions", it's about blatant bias towards one side of an argument while trying to maintain the veneer of independence.

If he wanted to appear independent, he should have left language like that at the door and genuinely compared the two parties side by side - he does not.



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 09:11 AM
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reply to post by larapa
 


Whether you like it or agree with it is completely irrelevant - the simple FACT is that immigration is a major concern for a growing number of UK citizens.

Any attempt at serious discussion is immediately labelled racist and the subject is swept under the carpet.
Immigration levels are not only a concern of what are labelled white British but also of an increasing number of those of Afro-Caribbean and Indian etc descent.

Open and frank discussion on the subject is denied the public and despite the usual lip service and sound bites no major political party shows any sign of wanting to represent or discuss these concerns.

And that is one of the major reasons why voters are turning to UKIP.

Your casual dismissal of these peoples views and stereotypical labelling of immigration concerns as 'racist' is proof positive that the demonization process has been successful with certain sections of society.



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 09:14 AM
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reply to post by stumason
 


The actual statement from their leaflet is :



29 million Romanians and Bulgarians will flood into the UK on January 1st.


The combined total population of Romania and Bulgaria is just under 27.5 million people. Not to split straws but I call BS on anything Farage states. I will leave the country if he gets any where near number 10 . I thought Cameron was bad enough...



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 09:15 AM
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reply to post by ObservingYou
 




He doesn't need credibility, he's a citizen with an opinion


Of course everyone's entitled to an opinion and I'd defend that right literally to the end.

But to be taken seriously requires a certain amount of credibility especially in the public domain and political arena.
edit on 13/4/14 by Freeborn because: typo



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 09:26 AM
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Freeborn
reply to post by larapa
 


Your casual dismissal of these peoples views and stereotypical labelling of immigration concerns as 'racist' is proof positive that the demonization process has been successful with certain sections of society.


My views are in the minority, the majority of the brainwashed inhabitants of the UK believe that immigration is a problem ( hence the rise in UKIP voters) when questioned why they exclaim that we do not have enough jobs /they come and claim our benefits/ we have a finite amount of land...

The reality is that between 2012 and 2013, the number of British people in a job rose by 348,000, while the number of foreigners in work rose by 26,000. “If we pull up the draw bridge overnight, as Nigel Farage implies, our NHS would collapse overnight.”

The NHS is increasingly reliant on foreign labour. In 2002, 6,210 of the NHS’s 26,400 consultant doctors were trained overseas, a proportion of 23.5 per cent. Ten years later, it had risen to 33.5 per cent, with staff coming from 108 different countries. Around a third of nurses are thought to have been born overseas.

Source

May I ask what then what is the major issue with immigration? They staff our hospitals and job creation for UK citizens is on the increase...




edit on 13-4-2014 by larapa because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-4-2014 by larapa because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-4-2014 by larapa because: (no reason given)



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