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An Alternative to UKIP

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posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 11:16 AM
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Are you voting for UKIP based purely on the EU issue?




Why 73% of UKIP supporters should actually vote Green



In the environment of UK politics, the cry of the common UKIP supporter is a familiar one. When confronted with the irrefutable facts that UKIP is an extreme-right party, stuffed full of people too right-wing even for the Tory party, and bankrolled by former Tory party donors, the response of the common UKIP supporter is to squawk "but I'm not right-wing" and "I only support UKIP to get us out of Europe".

Why do so many left-wing people vote for UKIP?

It seems hard to believe that so many people with left-wing or centre ground political beliefs would openly support a party on the extreme-right fringe, but the evidence shows that this is actually the case. In November 2013 a YouGov poll on renationalisation clearly demonstrated that the majority of UKIP supporters favour very explicitly socialist ideas. 78% of UKIP supporters responded that they supported outright renationalisation of the UK energy market, and 73% of them supported renationalisation of the rail network.

The idea that UKIP (a political structure composed of, headed by, and bankrolled by the extreme-right fringe of the Tory party) would ever renationalise anything is absolutely laughable, so it seems that the large majority of UKIP supporters are so desperate to get out of Europe that they will vote for a party that adheres to an opposite economic ideology to their own (the neoliberal orthodoxy).

The "I only support UKIP to get us out of Europe" is a particularly ludicrous stance because people that want to make clear their desire for a referendum on Europe have another option, which is to vote for the Green Party instead of voting for the Tory party on steroids.

Not only have the Green Party made commitment to holding a referendum on Europe, they also have manifesto commitments to the kind of left-wing/social democratic politics (such as rail renationalisation) that the majority of UKIP supporters actually favour. Meanwhile UKIP don't even have an official manifesto after Nigel Farage publicly disowned the contents of the 2010 UKIP manifesto, deriding it as "drivel".

Why would anyone that supports the left-wing idea of renationalisation vote for an extreme-right party on the grounds that they want out of Europe, when there is a left-wing party that offers a referendum on membership of the EU, without all the bonkers right-wing extremism, and a commitment to renationalise the railways into the bargain?

The Green Party stance on Europe

I realise that most people won't be aware of the Green party policy on Europe, because of the appalling paucity of mainstream media coverage on the Green's policy based approach to politics, in favour of covering the circus freak show that is UKIP*, so I'll outline the Green Party stance on the EU.

Firstly I'll give a basic interpretation of their stance, then I'll provide numerous quotes from the Green Party to substantiate what I've said.

The Green Party favours a referendum on the EU because they are opposed to the extremely undemocratic way the EU is currently structured, as well as the unsustainable neoclassical economic ideology that the EU actively promotes. The Green party would prefer to see the EU reformed from within to make it more democratic and more accountable. They would also like to ditch the ideological obsession with the neoclassical economic orthodoxy and the ridiculous single currency experiment.

The Green party is committed to a referendum of the EU, but they have not decided which side of the debate they would side with. They want the referendum because they believe that the debate would trigger reform of the EU, however if major reforms are not forthcoming, it seems highly likely that the Greens would campaign for an EU exit, since the structures and objectives of the EU as currently constituted are fundamentally incompatible with the core Green values of democracy and sustainability.

Here is a quote from the Green MP Caroline Lucas:

"I support a referendum on our membership of the EU because I am pro-democracy."

Here are some quotes from the Green party policy document on the EU which confirm that they have correctly identified the major problems with the way the EU is structured.

The current structure of the EU:

"The Green Party is opposed to the objectives, structure and policies of the EU as currently constituted."

The anti-democratic European Commission:

" The Green Party believes that the excessive influence of the Commission and its associated bodies compared to the Council and Parliament is both undemocratic and unaccountable."

The anti-democratic European Central Bank:

"[The Eurozone] is run by the European Central Bank (ECB), a collection of bankers appointed by Council subject to no effective democratic control, but able to override the democratic decisions made by member countries."

The lack of democracy and citizen participation:

"A major weakness of the present European Union is the lack of mechanisms to ensure that the powers and structures of the EU have the consent of the citizens of member countries."

The economically illiterate single currency experiment:

"The Green Party is opposed to EMU and the single currency. We believe it undermines local and regional economies."

"The Green Party is opposed to the UK joining the Eurozone. We are committed to a referendum on any such decision and will join the campaign for a 'No' vote in any such referendum."

Just like UKIP, they participate in EU elections and try to change the EU from within:

"Whilst the Green Party is opposed to the objectives, structure and policies of the EU as currently constituted, as long as the U.K. remains a member of the EU the Green Party will stand in elections to the European Parliament and elected Green MEPs will work for fundamental reform of the EU from within."

The election in May 2014


The next set of European elections occur in May 2014. These elections are an excellent opportunity for people to express dissent with the political system because they are conducted on a proportional basis, meaning there are no such things as "safe seats" nor "wasted votes", as with the archaic and unrepresentative Westminster voting system used in General Elections.

Recent opinion polls show that the fight to become biggest UK party in the European Parliament will in all probability be between Labour and UKIP. Meanwhile there is a very interesting battle for fourth place between the Liberal Democrats (currently projected 8%) and the Green Party (currently projected 6%).

In my view the election in May is an ideal opportunity for left-wing people to express their discontent with the political system by making sure that the Green Party leapfrog the Liberal Democrats into fourth place.

This isn't particularly unrealistic given the appallingly low turnouts at European elections (just 34% at the last election). If just a few hundred thousand people vote Green instead of voting UKIP, voting Labour or simply staying at home, the Lib Dems could easily be relegated to 5th place.

anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk...




posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 11:20 AM
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Conclusion

Unlike UKIP, the Green Party is an actual alternative to the neoliberal orthodoxy of privatisation, deregulation, tax cuts for the rich & austerity for the poor. Voting Green would would show support for an EU referendum, without endorsing the kind of right-wing economic fanaticism that is absolutely rife within UKIP.

If just few hundred thousand more people vote for the Green Party in May, we could all enjoy seeing the Lib-Dems relegated to 5th placed also-rans. If on the other hand, those extra few hundred thousand vote for UKIP, we'll just get one or two more UKIP MEPs, who may well end up either defecting to the Tories (Marta Andreasen) or getting thrown out of the party for spewing sexist bile (Godfrey Bloom).

anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk...

Well, I've got to say, I have spent the last year trying to drum up support for UKIP without even realising there IS an alternative.
I'll have to have a real good look at the Green Policy to see if in fact they are viable contenders. Caroline Lucas does indeed stand for truth, and that in it's self is heartening.



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 11:36 AM
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This is a good point, UKIP are dangerous and the Europe issue is detracting from who they really are... I stay in Scotland and I've been very impressed with the Green Party, especially Patrick Harvey, even in the independence debates at my university or the Radical Independence Conference, the greens made more sense than most.

People should look at the Greens more seriously, they are very like old labour, partially socialist and genuinely, for the most part, working class orientated. S&F OP, not many people discuss the greens.
edit on ESaturday3712am1123 by Elijah23 because: spelling error, woopsies...



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 11:39 AM
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Sounds like a bunch of stinky hippies trying to discredit UKIP to gain votes.....UKIP is NOT extreme right, they are centre right, and they do have a lot of other good policies, they just mainly focus on Europe because that is one of the most important things that needs to be resolved.

ETA: The stinky hippy comment was a bit tongue in cheek, some of my best friends are what you would call hippies......I still think that some of the Green parties policies, particularly on energy are a bit silly.
edit on 12/4/14 by woogleuk because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 12:27 PM
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reply to post by Elijah23
 




This is a good point, UKIP are dangerous and the Europe issue is detracting from who they really are


That's a ridiculous statement, UKIP focus on the EU is one of the most important issues to the UK. I'm in the US and even I can see that.

Before you say I don't know what I'm talking about I've lived in the UK for many years, both England and Scotland. Don't be deluded UK, free yourselves from the EU. Don't dilute your focus, UKIP has a chance of winning over conservatives and labour.



posted on Apr, 12 2014 @ 12:43 PM
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Hmm, I've noticed a tendency for liberals to label any group they want to discredit/dismiss (feel threatened by) as right wing.

Asking around, I've noticed a lot of UKIP supporters are former labour supporters who've felt betrayed by the immigration policies. The white working class have been the ones who've felt the negative impact from immigration, and they've got fed up being waved off as 'bigots' when they complained. It's no coincidence that voting minorities in the UK usually vote labour. This was ballot stuffing by immigration.

Some UKIP supporters DO have a unacceptable attitude to women and homosexuality, it can't be denied. I don't think big business are supporting UKIP in droves though. Just a few

Still not voting Green.



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 04:17 AM
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reply to post by Antigod
 


Just another example of what has been said being twisted to suit an agenda (not having a pop at you antigod)....

There is no bad stance against women, they just made a distinction between jobs, wannabe mothers and career women, this was then twisted into them saying that women should stay at home and have children, not jobs.

The gay marriage thing was twisted too, what UKIP are concerned about is that legalising gay marriage will legally force religious institutions to perform ceremonies against their beliefs. They aren't homophobic, just strong believers in traditional values, in fact, several UKIP councillors, including Nigel Farage, have said they think the civil partnership thing was a good thing.



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 05:48 AM
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Thanks for posting the thread. I have been thinking about making a thread to start a discussion on the main party contenders in the run up to the UK election, it's important that we have all the information we need to make a decision who to vote for.

For me, Tories, Labour and LibDems aren't even in the running. Tories need to get a backbone. Our country needs taxes to function, and Cameron needs to tell corporations and big business that if they want to operate here, benefit from our services and to profit from our citizens, then they are going to have to pay their fair share of taxes here. Not negotiable. Take it or leave it. But that isn't the Tory way. Corporations say 'jump', Cameron replies 'how high?'. Nope, not for me.

Labour are now just closet Tories, so they're not getting my vote either.

LibDems. lol. The less said about them the better. Too wet for words.

UKIP, oh dear. Good for the EU issue and border controls, bad because Farage wants to frack every inch of the UK for cheap energy. I considered giving UKIP my vote before learning this. No chance now.

I've recently heard about the Green Party but not familiar with their policies as yet. I'll share a link to their website if anyone would like to have a read and pick out bits we ought to know but might miss.
policy.greenparty.org.uk...
I'm just going to have a look myself too and see what they're saying for themselves.

S&F.



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 06:33 AM
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reply to post by ObservingYou
 


Got to be honest, I've been a bit guilty of dismissing The Green Party as a one-trick pony and its supporters of being nothing more than tree hugging, kumbaya singing, pseudo-intellectual, middle-class, interfering busy-bodies.

After having a quick glance at some of their policies I've got to say there seems to be more to them than I had assumed. (I hate assumptions and believing the spoon fed drivel we get from MSM without seeking balance or alternative viewpoints etc, but I am but human and have my failings just like everyone else).

Like with all political parties I can agree and see sense in some of their policies and think some are complete nonsense.
Some of their stated policies are wishy washy and even PC driven bollocks whilst some are progressive and worthy of serious consideration.

Despite serious misgivings about Farage and UKIP in general I have developed a grudging respect for him with regards to his stance and approach to the EU, but I strongly disagree with their stated alternative to it.
The same can be said about UKIP's immigration policy; the current open-door policy is simply unacceptable but UKIP's suggested solutions are equally unacceptable and I seriously suspect their motivations behind it.
But on the other hand The Green Party's policy of easing immigration restrictions could prove disastrous for the working and lower middle-classes who the OP seems to be suggesting should be attracted to voting for them.

I very much doubt I would consider voting for The Green Party in a General Election at present but with the PR electoral system of EU elections I think it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if they were to gain more representation in the EU Parliament.

Certainly something to consider and not to dismiss outright before voting on the 22nd May.



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 07:03 AM
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Whilst I am sure that the Green Party has it's pluses, the whole OP source put me off in the opening line from anything to do with them because they described UKIP as " the irrefutable fact that UKIP is extreme-right fringe"..Irrefutable? How so?

Whatever your beliefs, UKIP is not extreme right in the slightest. I'm not their biggest fan either, some of their policies jive with me but some are not very well thought out, but I'd never describe them as extreme right - that is BNP territory.

So, what I am saying is that any credibility for the Greens is lost when they try to implant this bias into your thinking when talking about UKIP. This applies to all parties - if they want your vote they should be honest and not try to poison your thinking with such inflammatory and inaccurate statements.

The irony is of course, that while describing UKIP as "extreme right wing", they also attempt to occupy the same space with the same policies (that is the point of the OP source), so surely if UKIP are extreme right wing, so are they? I guess the author of the source was hoping no-one would notice that gaping hole there.....



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 07:05 AM
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reply to post by ObservingYou
 


UNAP- Alternative to UKIP
edit on 13-4-2014 by larapa because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 07:18 AM
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reply to post by doobydoll
 


On the subject of taxation, HMRC have been given sweeping new powers to go after the super-rich who hide money in offshore accounts, VAT rules have now been changed so companies based offshore can't now sell in the UK without paying any tax at all (Amazon et al) and overall the tax burden has been shifted towards the upper end of the scale.

For all their perceived ills, the Tories have done exactly what they said they would do when voted in after 2010. The economy didn't tank like Labour said it would, or even the IMF said it would, the economy has been rebalanced with large investments now being made in manufacturing jobs (Siemens moving from Germany in Hull, Bombardier in Derby, Hitachi moving from Japan, Huwaeii in Reading, various car firms expanding are just a few examples), unemployment is falling, inflation is low.

People love to moan how the "poor" have been hit with the benefit changes, which actually amount to very small change, but the rest of us in the middle felt the squeeze right from the get go in 2010 and we're the one's who voted the Tories in. Straight away after the tax credits were reformed, I was out of pocket to the tune of £1560 a year.

The old "bedroom tax" was actually brought in for Private tenants in 2007 by Labour themselves, for crying out loud, but when the changes where brought in by the Coalition to make it apply to all tenants in receipt of housing benefit, that is somehow "demonising the poor" and used for cheap political point scoring by the party that not only created the financial mess but first created the so called "bedroom tax".

Then when other changes came in, more money was taken off me but we sucked it up as it was needed for the country.

It sums it up pretty well when you consider what Labour was warning would happen from 2010 to last year and now all they can say to any story is "cost of living crisis" - it's like a stuck record.

Yes, there was a squeeze as pay in real terms didn't rise for a few years on the back of a financial collapse that Labour oversaw, but I can guarantee from this year people will start to see pay rises (some even from last year - I saw an 8% pay increase myself) as companies start to see the recovery take hold.

Come 2015, Labour aren't going to have anything left to moan about while the Tories can at least point to the last 5 years and say we have reduced the deficit, rebalanced the economy, got people back into work and reduced the Welfare state - all things they were voted in to do.

Yes, there are things they could have done better or not at all, but could you imagine what sorry state we would be in had Brown been in charge from 2010? He had no plan other than to continue course and hope for the best - it is painfully obvious that Ed Balls and Milliband have no clue whatsoever either.
edit on 13/4/14 by stumason because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 07:28 AM
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reply to post by larapa
 


UNAP?

Who be they?



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 07:32 AM
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stumason
reply to post by larapa
 


UNAP?

Who be they?


Unap or ukip, either way you get 40 winks.



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 07:34 AM
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reply to post by woodwardjnr
 


I've clearly missed something here!




posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 07:39 AM
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reply to post by stumason
 


I think the poster was making a play on the words nap and kip. As in to take a nap or a kip. A short spell of sleep.



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 08:02 AM
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Bassago
reply to post by Elijah23
 




This is a good point, UKIP are dangerous and the Europe issue is detracting from who they really are


That's a ridiculous statement, UKIP focus on the EU is one of the most important issues to the UK. I'm in the US and even I can see that.

Before you say I don't know what I'm talking about I've lived in the UK for many years, both England and Scotland. Don't be deluded UK, free yourselves from the EU. Don't dilute your focus, UKIP has a chance of winning over conservatives and labour.


You don't know what you are talking about, UKIP = Racism, Homophobia, Neo Nazi, Scum....

www.mirror.co.uk...
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk...
www.portsmouth.co.uk...

^ tip of the ice berg...^
Do Not be fooled by a wolf in Sheeps clothing... The EU is their Jewish problem...
This Farage character plays on peoples fears..



However, the UKIP leader came under attack for a campaign leaflet which claimed 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians may come to the UK.

Mr Clegg argued: "There aren't even 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians living in Romania and Bulgaria


Don't kip or nap stay wide awake, when it comes to these scum I wouldn't blink ...
edit on 13-4-2014 by larapa because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 08:02 AM
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reply to post by woodwardjnr
 


Ahhhhh!

Maybe I could do with more of it myself for not getting that one... Jeebus, can't believe I missed it!



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 08:09 AM
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reply to post by larapa
 


I think if you dig around on any online forum, you'll find a wide range of views and many you don't agree with - using it as an example of the Party being "neo-nazi", as you put it, is weak.

Also, there are examples from all the major parties of questionable views and statements, you're just cherry picking and taking part in the media campaign against UKIP in an attempt to vilify them as they are, rightfully, a threat to the established parties.

Tory Councillor investigated for "racist comments"

Labou r Councillor found guilty of racist comments

Labour Councillor makes homophobic remarks

See my point? Idiots can be found anywhere, but an important point to make is that we live in a democracy with freedom of speech, to an extent, so you have to expect to find people with unsavoury views in all walks of life.

Singling out a single party like you have is just biased and downright dishonest.



posted on Apr, 13 2014 @ 08:10 AM
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stumason
Whilst I am sure that the Green Party has it's pluses, the whole OP source put me off in the opening line from anything to do with them because they described UKIP as " the irrefutable fact that UKIP is extreme-right fringe"..Irrefutable? How so?

Whatever your beliefs, UKIP is not extreme right in the slightest. I'm not their biggest fan either, some of their policies jive with me but some are not very well thought out, but I'd never describe them as extreme right - that is BNP territory.

So, what I am saying is that any credibility for the Greens is lost when they try to implant this bias into your thinking when talking about UKIP. This applies to all parties - if they want your vote they should be honest and not try to poison your thinking with such inflammatory and inaccurate statements.

The irony is of course, that while describing UKIP as "extreme right wing", they also attempt to occupy the same space with the same policies (that is the point of the OP source), so surely if UKIP are extreme right wing, so are they? I guess the author of the source was hoping no-one would notice that gaping hole there.....


Another ironic thing is that you talk about this source as if you understand this source, which you contradict a few sentences later.
You label this as 'Green propaganda', however, this source clearly states he is an independent blogger.

You talk about 'implanting bias', but isn't that the role of all us actors in this reality?






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