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Israel: France lying for Arafat!

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posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 07:26 AM
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That's an interesting theory and a possibility I suppose Itwasn'tme.

But it still remains the fact that this is simply a series of conflicting claims made with a lack of substantive evidence either 'side' would accept.

Arafat might well have been from Jerusalem. He might not.

But making a political case as to why either side might prefer he was or wasn't from Jersulem hardly 'proves' anything either way.




posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 02:30 PM
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It is very important for him to 'claim' something that is not true. As someone pointed out the Palestinian people are making history up as they go. Pre-1945 the Palestinian people were both Jew and Arab. Now it is as if they are creating a connection to the Canaanites in which they have none. This one little lie would have big consequences if allowed to stand.



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 02:44 PM
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I'm sorry to tell you EdSinger, but nothing is more shadowy than the real ethnicity of jewish and palestinian people nowadays. Theories are wild, and go from the immigration of the sadducees to the immigration of just a few pharisees (ben Zakkai, etc..) that later converted people in greece and russia. So it's very possible that the palestinians nowadays are sadducees later converted to islam, which would make them Moses' people, and not the 'jews', which could be of pharisian, that is persian, origin, mixed up with greeks and russians. This later theory is more likely, since judaism nowadays is pharisaic.

[edit on 28-11-2004 by Mokuhadzushi]



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 02:46 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger
It is very important for him to 'claim' something that is not true.


- As keeps being pointed out to you Ed (yet you chose to continually ignore) you (like just about everybody else here) have no way of knowing whether this claim is true or not.

You are merely chosing a preferred belief.


As someone pointed out the Palestinian people are making history up as they go.


- .....and you cannot (surely) be blind to the 'other side' being at this as well?!


Pre-1945 the Palestinian people were both Jew and Arab. Now it is as if they are creating a connection to the Canaanites in which they have none.


- Sorry, I don't know where you get this Biblical mumbo-jumbo stuff from. Most stories regarding the Palestinians that I hear relate to their conditions now and their dispossession since the late 1940's - the early 1950's and onward.


This one little lie would have big consequences if allowed to stand.


- So, can you prove this is a lie (before you make claims about it's massive "consequences" (er, like what? Do you really think many arabic people in the ME give a monkey's whether you or some of the Israeli's think Arafat was or was not born in Jerusalem?
. Get real Ed, this is propaganda for those in the west who imagine this stuff has "big consequences"
) "if allowed to stand(!?)"?)

This is another one of those stranger ideas, I must say Ed.

[edit on 28-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 04:05 PM
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Actual facts.

Those who are known as Palestinians today are Arabs. Full stop. They used to be known,
more correctly as "Palestinian Arabs". A (shrinking) minority are Christian, the remainder
Muslim. Consider how in Iraq, the main ethnic groups are Arabs and Kurds: Iraqi Kurds and Iraqi Arabs. Same thing.

All the other stuff about Cananaites, Persians, blah blah blah, is total bunk, and again is propagandistic lies to attempt to give historical privileges to Palestinian Arabs in an attempt to deny Israel and in particular its Jews any "right" to live there. Along with this comes other even more egregious lies, often broadcast seriously on Palestinian state television as "history", such as denying that, despite the literally rock-hard evidence in front of their eyes, that any Jewish Temple or kingdom ever existed in Palestine or Jerusalem.

The ethnicity of the Jews in Israel includes Europeans, both Northern and Southern, Persians and, yes even Arabs. Yes, indeed, at one point there were Jewish Arabs, before the hate and ethnic cleansing lead nearly all of them to leave for Israel or other places. L.A. has many Persian Jews who left Iran after Khomeini. There used to be 150,000 Jews living in Baghdad (1940's?), today, probably 10, all elderly in hiding. There are still a few Jews in Morocco, which is less virulently anti-Semitic than the other Arab states, and a very small number in Yemen. Remember the bombings in Morocco a year or two ago? Yup, you guessed it, aimed at Jewish owned businesses.

Before the creation of Israel, there was migration to Palestine from both West and East, Jew and non-Jew, though of course the Jews were more motivated to concentrate there.

Before the creation of Israel, Jews there were "Palestinian Jews".

On to Arafat. Going by historical facts, most objective professionals put his place of birth in Cairo, but there is some possibility it could have been Gaza, as his family was moving
around at that time. There is no evidence at all that it is Jerusalem---that is entirely PLO propaganda.

Deny ignorance.



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 04:17 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey


Pre-1945 the Palestinian people were both Jew and Arab. Now it is as if they are creating a connection to the Canaanites in which they have none.


- Sorry, I don't know where you get this Biblical mumbo-jumbo stuff from. Most stories regarding the Palestinians that I hear relate to their conditions now and their dispossession since the late 1940's - the early 1950's and onward.


Do some simple research on the history of Palestine. Also while you are at it do a little on the 'standing' of Palestinian peoples in the Arab world today. Do you know they are treated as blacks were in the 50-60's in the US? Just take a trip to Saudi or Kuwait. The Arabs no more love the Palestinian people, they just hate the Jewish ones.





Originally posted by MokuhadzushiI'm sorry to tell you EdSinger, but nothing is more shadowy than the real ethnicity of jewish and palestinian people nowadays. Theories are wild, and go from the immigration of the sadducees to the immigration of just a few pharisees (ben Zakkai, etc..) that later converted people in greece and russia. So it's very possible that the palestinians nowadays are sadducees later converted to islam, which would make them Moses' people, and not the 'jews', which could be of pharisian, that is persian, origin, mixed up with greeks and russians. This later theory is more likely, since judaism nowadays is pharisaic.


No they come from Issac and not Ishmael. The Jews like many other races have the oral traditions and keep the family tree so to speak. I would agree that most Jews in Israel today are secular though, but no there is no question as to their heritage. The Russian ones even know this.







Originally posted by mbkennel
All the other stuff about Cananaites, Persians, blah blah blah, is total bunk, and again is propagandistic lies to attempt to give historical privileges to Palestinian Arabs in an attempt to deny Israel and in particular its Jews any "right" to live there. Along with this comes other even more egregious lies, often broadcast seriously on Palestinian state television as "history", such as denying that, despite the literally rock-hard evidence in front of their eyes, that any Jewish Temple or kingdom ever existed in Palestine or Jerusalem.

Before the creation of Israel, Jews there were "Palestinian Jews".



What a Great Post! That was a good summation of the Arabs and the Jews throughout history and spot on with the Palestinians.



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 05:37 PM
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Muddying the waters Ed?

What has the 'position' of Palestinians in Arab countries got to do with any of this?

I see you are still ignoring the point about whether anyone can or cannot prove Arafat's place of birth then, hmm?



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 06:08 PM
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EdSinger, No they come from Issac and not Ishmael. The Jews like many other races have the oral traditions and keep the family tree so to speak. I would agree that most Jews in Israel today are secular though, but no there is no question as to their heritage. The Russian ones even know this


Are you referring to Abraham ? We're talking AD here...



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 06:29 PM
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Then answer me this if it is not important,


Why then lie about the place of birth? Huh? Why Lie about it and create the myth that the man was more than he actually was?


Why?

He has no connection to Jerusalem at all, other than the crap they claim that they were there first. Palestinian Arabs are not Canaanites.

Funny, the Israeli Arabs have their own view...



Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi

Are you referring to Abraham ? We're talking AD here...



But you must understand this to understand the problem. It is all about inheritance..

[edit on 28-11-2004 by edsinger]



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 06:35 PM
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Lie or not, who can tell ? A medical record contains the birthplace you claim, and he claimed Jerusalem, so what's the big deal to an ambassador ?! Is this ambassador serious or does he just want to waste our time ? At least, you should admit that there's a big way to go between 'Arafat claims his birthplace to be Jerusalem' (as he's been doing for the last 72 years) and 'France falsifies his death certificate'

If you want more info about judaism, this is a pretty good source : www.abovetopsecret.com...




[edit on 28-11-2004 by Mokuhadzushi]



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 06:37 PM
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So there are conflicting claims, and it seems none can actually be proved, yet you insist with great certainty that Arafat must have been the one lying?!

Wow, how does that work Ed?



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 06:42 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
So there are conflicting claims, and it seems none can actually be proved, yet you insist with great certainty that Arafat must have been the one lying?!

Wow, how does that work Ed?



Well gee I don't know it is not like the man had the habit of lying does he? Heck rumor has it he had other habits with his guards, maybe they would let that out also? (I do not know if true but it would be devastating to the Arabs who idolized him)



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 06:59 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger
Well gee I don't know it is not like the man had the habit of lying does he?


- I imagine people in the Arab world are pretty well aware of his background and could care less about this arguement.
As I said before I think this is all about those 'outside'.

Nevertheless in an area riven with claim and counterclaim and very little in the way of any actual proof your choice of what you believe is simply a reflection of your own prejudices in the matter, not any fact.


Heck rumor has it he had other habits with his guards, maybe they would let that out also?


- So? Rumours are 'planted' about just about everyone in the politics of that place....anyway, why would anyone lend any weight to them without the slightest shred of any credible proof?


(I do not know if true but it would be devastating to the Arabs who idolized him)


- I doubt the Arabs would give much credability to this kind of stuff.....I mean it's not like any of it is particularly new or that people don't know that the Israelis have been going about spreading such stories from time to time, is it?

As for "idolise"?
Hmm, I'm not sure people idolised Arafat - especially in recent years - anymore than say Bush fans "idolise" Bush.



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 07:02 PM
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as posted by sminkeypinkey
I see you are still ignoring the point about whether anyone can or cannot prove Arafat's place of birth then, hmm?


sminkeypinkey, are you suggesting for a momnet that 'no one' knows where Arafat was born? Amazing that his birth certificate says otherwise?


Arafat was the fifth of seven children. His father was a Palestinian textile merchant and his mother came from a prominent Palestinian family. Arafat's claim to have been born in Jerusalem on August 4, 1929 is supported by his death certificate. However, a birth certificate registered in Cairo, Egypt gives August 24, 1929 as his date of birth, as confirmed by Arafat's biographer Alan Hart and Palestinian biographer, Said K. Aburish. Arafat maintained his father forged the birth certificate for him in Egypt so he could attend school for free. Other sources have given Gaza, Palestine, as his birthplace.

Yasser Arafat

Now either the French purposely falsified his death certificate or did it by mistake. That is the real question. Oh wait, maybe someone made a mistake on Arafat's birth certificate?




seekerof



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 07:08 PM
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Seekerof, as with all of your chaotic argumentations, this proves nothing.



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 07:08 PM
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Other thing - when we're talking about "the French" falsifying his birth records, we have to look at how French law functions in these cases. Who is authorized to provide information on the deceased for the death certificate? Who draws it up, the hospital, the municipal government or the national government?

What I mean by this is that a government system is always complex, with a lot of rules and bureaucracy. Before we pass judgement on what happened in this case, we need to know who was mandated to give information on the deceased, how French law deals with that information, and who has authority to issue a death certificate.



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 07:12 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof

as posted by sminkeypinkey
I see you are still ignoring the point about whether anyone can or cannot prove Arafat's place of birth then, hmm?


sminkeypinkey, are you suggesting for a momnet that 'no one' knows where Arafat was born? Amazing that his birth certificate says otherwise?
seekerof


Better watch it seekerof, if you tend to support my position on things you will get hammered
, but I thank you for pointing out that his birth certificate even says so. I didn't know that and it makes the whole argument on the French side moot does it not?

[edit on 28-11-2004 by edsinger]



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 07:13 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
sminkeypinkey, are you suggesting for a momnet that 'no one' knows where Arafat was born? Amazing that his birth certificate says otherwise?


Arafat was the fifth of seven children. His father was a Palestinian textile merchant and his mother came from a prominent Palestinian family. Arafat's claim to have been born in Jerusalem on August 4, 1929 is supported by his death certificate. However, a birth certificate registered in Cairo, Egypt gives August 24, 1929 as his date of birth, as confirmed by Arafat's biographer Alan Hart and Palestinian biographer, Said K. Aburish. Arafat maintained his father forged the birth certificate for him in Egypt so he could attend school for free. Other sources have given Gaza, Palestine, as his birthplace.

Yasser Arafat

Now either the French purposely falsified his death certificate or did it by mistake. That is the real question. Oh wait, maybe someone made a mistake on Arafat's birth certificate?


- But Seekerof you have included the very reason for that document to be doubted in your post!



[edit on 28-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 07:16 PM
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Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi
Seekerof, as with all of your chaotic argumentations, this proves nothing.


Thats funny Moku, it seems apparent to me that not much of anything presented contrary to what you deem as "truth" proves nothing?

Amazing that you think a birth certificate, something that each of us recieves upon 'birth' proves nothing, eh? Not even his personal biographer, eh? O...k. O_o


seekerof



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 07:22 PM
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Seekerof - actually, if we're talking about Palestine in 1929 - or Egypt - it's not at all certain that a birth certificate was even issued.

One of my interests is supercentenarians, people who live past the age of 110. And according to the researchers in that field, one reason that most supercentenarians recorded and validated are American, British, French, Italian or Japanese is that a lot of other countries have had problems for a long time keeping official records of births and even deaths. Usually, the "exaggeration" cases (people who claim to be over 120) come from countries where birth records have been known to be faulty for a long time.

So it's not inconceivable that Arafat could have had no birth certificate.




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